General external expansion discussion? *spawn*

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by goonergaz, Sep 9, 2020.

  1. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    3,990
    Likes Received:
    2,777
    That's the edgiest of edge cases. Not something that most users would encounter.

    That's adding a level of complexity that doesn't need to be there. The game can be updated after it gets thawed. Still much better than having to redownload or re-install from disk (and then update).
     
    tinokun and BRiT like this.
  2. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    14,907
    Likes Received:
    11,018
    Location:
    London, UK
    It'w not an edge case, it's a basic example of how operating systems use features of their native filesystems where use of non-native filesystems result in dataloss. How about trying to use a BTRFS filesystem partition for storing Steam games from a Windows machine? Nope, can't do that either. Many games won't even complete the install before throwing up errors, and if you're lucky enough that it does, it won't run. So much software uses the basic file system for operability.

    Then this it's only as good a solution as the size of the patches that roll in between storing and wanting to re-play. This gen we've seen patch sizes larger than the original game installs.
     
  3. orangpelupa

    orangpelupa Elite Bug Hunter
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    9,211
    Likes Received:
    2,530
    What about games installed over network hdd? Usually only mmo refuse to launch.
     
  4. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    3,990
    Likes Received:
    2,777
    They are edge cases because people don't care that this doesn't work. If they did, someone would make it work. It doesn't necessarily have to be inherent difficulty that prevents something from being implemented, it can just be that no one cares enough to make it worth doing.

    Still better than not having any implementation at all if you want cost-effective mass storage for your game library.
     
    tinokun likes this.
  5. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    14,907
    Likes Received:
    11,018
    Location:
    London, UK
    That's a different argument. You claimed there weren't problem and I've provided examples where using non-native filesystems actually does cause problems. Just because it's limited to a fringe number of people who run multiple filesystems doesn't mean the technical issue isn't real because it clearly is. You may be surprised at how much variation of filesystem features there are, particularly in regards to extended file attributes and forks. Even what the look to offer the same features, implementations can vary wildly.

    If you think it's easy to solve then I don't think you understand the magnitude of the problem and that's fine.

    I agree that some compromised features are better than none but many games won't run without updates on newer firmware or, if an online game, generally won't run at all if there is a newer version. If the use of storage is to minimise downloads then we'll have to hope patch sizes are reasonable this coming generation. :yes:
     
  6. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    3,990
    Likes Received:
    2,777
    All I'm saying is that if interoperability is expected/desired then it would be expected that you would account for this in your design. If you didn't and are now struggling to enable this interoperability due to this neglect, then you designed poorly.
     
  7. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    14,907
    Likes Received:
    11,018
    Location:
    London, UK
    I would agree. But sometimes you are just left with a decision on whether to compromise your new forward-looking design to preserve legacy support, or cut lose and aim to provide what is often a sub-optimal technical workaround down the line.

    Apple and Microsoft have both made decisions in the design of the core operating systems, and their respective filesystems, when this has been the choice.
     
  8. JPT

    JPT
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2007
    Messages:
    2,333
    Likes Received:
    796
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    I am Team DSoup here, I considered buying an external SSD for PS4 games, but luckily my Spider senses kicked in. I expect I will play Ghost of Tsushima and Cyberpunk 2077 that are PS4 games and Dirt 5 going forward. Even though I have no clue when the internal M2 support will be released, I am not really bothered. It just means I delay my purchase of that M2 drive, maybe even saving me a coin or two. Now I might change my mind in the coming months, but thats life.

    What annoys me is that VRR might not be in PS5 or even worse might not come (based on none direct mentions of it) then again I got cheap buying a tv last year and I went with the LG B9 that does not support 4k HDR at 120Hz with VRR, so it might not even affect me.
    And it is actually one of the things that might have driven me to buy an XSX, then again, I can not list one first party XB game I wanted to play in our current gen, so it looks like I am staying with PS5.
     
    DSoup likes this.
  9. Silenti

    Regular

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    398
    [Teasingly] - I would't worry too much. VRR black levels on the panels are broken anyway. I have the Vizio and I am still waiting on new firmware that will hopefully enable at least some of the higher end stuff these console's and tv's are supposed to support. *crosses fingers*
     
  10. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    3,990
    Likes Received:
    2,777
    On OSs for general purpose compute devices, sure, but for a console OS? It's only ever going to have to deal with a subset of operations compared to what a full-blown OS would have to handle. How esoteric could it get? Some stuff to support priority access, maybe? Some stuff to help support updating/patching with minimal writes to help with the drive longevity? What else would be absolutely critical to carry over with the game data from one filesystem to another?
     
  11. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    14,907
    Likes Received:
    11,018
    Location:
    London, UK
    I can't think of any features that a console filesystem designed for SSD wouldn't need that a desktop filesystem does. :nope: What are you thinking of? Folks often say permissions but permissions are one of the safeguards to stop bad software destroying the OS. Not intentionally, just through bugs.
     
  12. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    3,990
    Likes Received:
    2,777
    Actually, with some of the reports I'm seeing of not-quite-there functionality it may just be that the PS5 is coming in a bit hot.
     
  13. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    14,907
    Likes Received:
    11,018
    Location:
    London, UK
    Flaming possibly!

    But you can be sure if it was as easy to copy PS5 games as it is PS4 games, they would allowed it with their copy tool. It's more work to disable it for PS5 games than leave it working with everything. If it was slipped functionality, they'd have said it's coming soon. But there was much vague commitment to think about it. Sometime. If they can remember.
     
  14. Arwin

    Arwin Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    18,357
    Likes Received:
    2,006
    Location:
    Maastricht, The Netherlands
    A lot of different games probably means that many of them are PS4 titles? I just hooked up an external SSD for that and that definitely helps. GTA V for instance which my son plays a lot, boots up relatively fast on that.
     
  15. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    17,702
    Likes Received:
    7,705
    Yeah, I don't know all the games he plays, but things like the newest COD, Warframe, Destiny 2, and a bunch of other games. He thinks that even if games aren't optimized for the storage subsystems in the current gen consoles that the internal drives (including NVME expansion drives) will load things faster than an external SSD connected via USB (he currently has a 2.5" SSD in his PS4. No idea if that holds any water or not since I have no plans to get either console.

    I'm going to assume by your response that Sony still hasn't enabled the NVME expansion for end user use, yet?

    Regards,
    SB
     
  16. BRiT

    BRiT (>• •)>⌐■-■ (⌐■-■)
    Moderator Legend Alpha

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    18,795
    Likes Received:
    21,097
    No.
     
  17. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    12,065
    Likes Received:
    7,029
    This IMO was the biggest PS5 disappointment of November 2020. And then the biggest disappointment of December, and then January, and then February, and then March.
    Let's hope it's not the biggest disappointment of April 2021.
     
  18. manux

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Messages:
    2,796
    Likes Received:
    1,978
    Location:
    Earth
    It's coming out this summer. Some undisclosed sources are claiming it's due to overheating and sony needing time to figure out cooling. I doubt that is reason. It shouldn't take so long to increase speed of the fan, but who knows :) I think the fan will definitely be running harder when nvme ssd is present. This is kind of expected as sony has also discussed game specific fan profiles. We live in a world where every part gets optimized per use case

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-playstation-5-for-storage-upgrades-in-summer
     
    Silent_Buddha likes this.
  19. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    12,065
    Likes Received:
    7,029
    I'm 90% sure the NVMe white list has nothing to do with overheating. The console will only be pushing the drive in sequential read mode, where heat output is very low.
    Here is the case of the Western Digital SN850, a NVMe SSD capable of 7GB/s without any heatsink:

    [​IMG]


    The temperature stabilizes at ~47ºC after 5-6min in constant sequential read (which not even the PS5 is going to push). There's no way that sequential reads are generating temperature throttlings in these NVMe drives.

    Takashi Moshizuki's statement on that is:

    People seem to be conflating the firmware whitelist and the dynamic fan profiles as interdependent because of this sentence. However, dynamic fan profiles have been announced since October and they're most probably not related to the add-in NVMe capability.
     
    Rootax, pjbliverpool and manux like this.
  20. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    13,021
    Likes Received:
    15,765
    Location:
    The North
    I mean, I agree most of the time it will only be reading sure for gameplay usage. But you gotta put the games onto the drive before you can start reading them off.
    These games are in the 25-100GB range. You're likely to spend more than 100s loading games onto the drive if you're transferring from your internal.
    The more games you swap in and out, the more you need to deal with this.

    Downloading titles should be relatively tame though.
    [​IMG]
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...