General external expansion discussion? *spawn*

[mrcorbo]

Actually it does. On macOS is you grab a program from the internet that doesn't have a valid developer signature it won't run. You can of course authorise that file to run (it requires admin privs) which sets an extended file attribute which doesn't exist in NTFS or FAT32 or ExFAT. If you copy that program into one of those filesystems then copy it back it'll have lost the authorised flag and will be blocked again and require admin to re-enable it.

That's the edgiest of edge cases. Not something that most users would encounter.

This is exactly what you would need to do but depending on the complexity of the filesystem, writing the export and import tools to capture all the data disassociated data structures and metadata and archive it is not trivial. Especially, as I mentioned above, ideally you'd at least want those stored games to be kept up to date with the latest patches meaning your virtualised game image also needs to be able to grow. Now you're basically writing an entire virtualised filesystem for a f***king games console!

That's adding a level of complexity that doesn't need to be there. The game can be updated after it gets thawed. Still much better than having to redownload or re-install from disk (and then update).

 

[Deleted member 11852]

That's the edgiest of edge cases. Not something that most users would encounter.

It'w not an edge case, it's a basic example of how operating systems use features of their native filesystems where use of non-native filesystems result in dataloss. How about trying to use a BTRFS filesystem partition for storing Steam games from a Windows machine? Nope, can't do that either. Many games won't even complete the install before throwing up errors, and if you're lucky enough that it does, it won't run. So much software uses the basic file system for operability.

That's adding a level of complexity that doesn't need to be there. The game can be updated after it gets thawed. Still much better than having to redownload or re-install from disk (and then update).

Then this it's only as good a solution as the size of the patches that roll in between storing and wanting to re-play. This gen we've seen patch sizes larger than the original game installs.

 

[orangpelupa]

What about games installed over network hdd? Usually only mmo refuse to launch.

 

[mrcorbo]

It'w not an edge case, it's a basic example of how operating systems use features of their native filesystems where use of non-native filesystems result in dataloss. How about trying to use a BTRFS filesystem partition for storing Steam games from a Windows machine? Nope, can't do that either. Many games won't even complete the install before throwing up errors, and if you're lucky enough that it does, it won't run. So much software uses the basic file system for operability.

They are edge cases because people don't care that this doesn't work. If they did, someone would make it work. It doesn't necessarily have to be inherent difficulty that prevents something from being implemented, it can just be that no one cares enough to make it worth doing.

Then this it's only as good a solution as the size of the patches that roll in between storing and wanting to re-play. This gen we've seen patch sizes larger than the original game installs.

Still better than not having any implementation at all if you want cost-effective mass storage for your game library.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

They are edge cases because people don't care that this doesn't work. If they did, someone would make it work. It doesn't necessarily have to be inherent difficulty that prevents something from being implemented, it can just be that no one cares enough to make it worth doing.

That's a different argument. You claimed there weren't problem and I've provided examples where using non-native filesystems actually does cause problems. Just because it's limited to a fringe number of people who run multiple filesystems doesn't mean the technical issue isn't real because it clearly is. You may be surprised at how much variation of filesystem features there are, particularly in regards to extended file attributes and forks. Even what the look to offer the same features, implementations can vary wildly.

If you think it's easy to solve then I don't think you understand the magnitude of the problem and that's fine.

Still better than not having any implementation at all if you want cost-effective mass storage for your game library.

I agree that some compromised features are better than none but many games won't run without updates on newer firmware or, if an online game, generally won't run at all if there is a newer version. If the use of storage is to minimise downloads then we'll have to hope patch sizes are reasonable this coming generation.

 

[mrcorbo]

That's a different argument. You claimed there weren't problem and I've provided examples where using non-native filesystems actually does cause problems. Just because it's limited to a fringe number of people who run multiple filesystems doesn't mean the technical issue isn't real because it clearly is. You may be surprised at how much variation of filesystem features there are, particularly in regards to extended file attributes and forks. Even what the look to offer the same features, implementations can vary wildly.

If you think it's easy to solve then I don't think you understand the magnitude of the problem and that's fine.

All I'm saying is that if interoperability is expected/desired then it would be expected that you would account for this in your design. If you didn't and are now struggling to enable this interoperability due to this neglect, then you designed poorly.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

All I'm saying is that if interoperability is expected/desired then it would be expected that you would account for this in your design. If you didn't and are now struggling to enable this interoperability due to this neglect, then you designed poorly.

I would agree. But sometimes you are just left with a decision on whether to compromise your new forward-looking design to preserve legacy support, or cut lose and aim to provide what is often a sub-optimal technical workaround down the line.

Apple and Microsoft have both made decisions in the design of the core operating systems, and their respective filesystems, when this has been the choice.

 

[JPT]

I am Team DSoup here, I considered buying an external SSD for PS4 games, but luckily my Spider senses kicked in. I expect I will play Ghost of Tsushima and Cyberpunk 2077 that are PS4 games and Dirt 5 going forward. Even though I have no clue when the internal M2 support will be released, I am not really bothered. It just means I delay my purchase of that M2 drive, maybe even saving me a coin or two. Now I might change my mind in the coming months, but thats life.

What annoys me is that VRR might not be in PS5 or even worse might not come (based on none direct mentions of it) then again I got cheap buying a tv last year and I went with the LG B9 that does not support 4k HDR at 120Hz with VRR, so it might not even affect me.
And it is actually one of the things that might have driven me to buy an XSX, then again, I can not list one first party XB game I wanted to play in our current gen, so it looks like I am staying with PS5.

 

[Silenti]

I am Team DSoup here, I considered buying an external SSD for PS4 games, but luckily my Spider senses kicked in. I expect I will play Ghost of Tsushima and Cyberpunk 2077 that are PS4 games and Dirt 5 going forward. Even though I have no clue when the internal M2 support will be released, I am not really bothered. It just means I delay my purchase of that M2 drive, maybe even saving me a coin or two. Now I might change my mind in the coming months, but thats life.

What annoys me is that VRR might not be in PS5 or even worse might not come (based on none direct mentions of it) then again I got cheap buying a tv last year and I went with the LG B9 that does not support 4k HDR at 120Hz with VRR, so it might not even affect me.
And it is actually one of the things that might have driven me to buy an XSX, then again, I can not list one first party XB game I wanted to play in our current gen, so it looks like I am staying with PS5.

[Teasingly] - I would't worry too much. VRR black levels on the panels are broken anyway. I have the Vizio and I am still waiting on new firmware that will hopefully enable at least some of the higher end stuff these console's and tv's are supposed to support. *crosses fingers*

 

[mrcorbo]

I would agree. But sometimes you are just left with a decision on whether to compromise your new forward-looking design to preserve legacy support, or cut lose and aim to provide what is often a sub-optimal technical workaround down the line.

Apple and Microsoft have both made decisions in the design of the core operating systems, and their respective filesystems, when this has been the choice.

On OSs for general purpose compute devices, sure, but for a console OS? It's only ever going to have to deal with a subset of operations compared to what a full-blown OS would have to handle. How esoteric could it get? Some stuff to support priority access, maybe? Some stuff to help support updating/patching with minimal writes to help with the drive longevity? What else would be absolutely critical to carry over with the game data from one filesystem to another?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

On OSs for general purpose compute devices, sure, but for a console OS? It's only ever going to have to deal with a subset of operations compared to what a full-blown OS would have to handle. How esoteric could it get?

I can't think of any features that a console filesystem designed for SSD wouldn't need that a desktop filesystem does. What are you thinking of? Folks often say permissions but permissions are one of the safeguards to stop bad software destroying the OS. Not intentionally, just through bugs.

 

[mrcorbo]

Actually, with some of the reports I'm seeing of not-quite-there functionality it may just be that the PS5 is coming in a bit hot.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Actually, with some of the reports I'm seeing of not-quite-there functionality it may just be that the PS5 is coming in a bit hot.

Flaming possibly!

But you can be sure if it was as easy to copy PS5 games as it is PS4 games, they would allowed it with their copy tool. It's more work to disable it for PS5 games than leave it working with everything. If it was slipped functionality, they'd have said it's coming soon. But there was much vague commitment to think about it. Sometime. If they can remember.

 

[Arwin]

A lot of different games probably means that many of them are PS4 titles? I just hooked up an external SSD for that and that definitely helps. GTA V for instance which my son plays a lot, boots up relatively fast on that.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

A lot of different games probably means that many of them are PS4 titles? I just hooked up an external SSD for that and that definitely helps. GTA V for instance which my son plays a lot, boots up relatively fast on that.

Yeah, I don't know all the games he plays, but things like the newest COD, Warframe, Destiny 2, and a bunch of other games. He thinks that even if games aren't optimized for the storage subsystems in the current gen consoles that the internal drives (including NVME expansion drives) will load things faster than an external SSD connected via USB (he currently has a 2.5" SSD in his PS4. No idea if that holds any water or not since I have no plans to get either console.

I'm going to assume by your response that Sony still hasn't enabled the NVME expansion for end user use, yet?

Regards,
SB

 

[BRiT]

Hmmm, speaking of storage subsystems. Has Sony enabled the internal NVME expansion slot for end user use, yet?

No.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

No.

This IMO was the biggest PS5 disappointment of November 2020. And then the biggest disappointment of December, and then January, and then February, and then March.
Let's hope it's not the biggest disappointment of April 2021.

 

[manux]

I'm going to assume by your response that Sony still hasn't enabled the NVME expansion for end user use, yet?
SB

It's coming out this summer. Some undisclosed sources are claiming it's due to overheating and sony needing time to figure out cooling. I doubt that is reason. It shouldn't take so long to increase speed of the fan, but who knows I think the fan will definitely be running harder when nvme ssd is present. This is kind of expected as sony has also discussed game specific fan profiles. We live in a world where every part gets optimized per use case

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-playstation-5-for-storage-upgrades-in-summer

 

[Deleted member 13524]

It's coming out this summer. Some undisclosed sources are claiming it's due to overheating and sony needing time to figure out cooling. I doubt that is reason.

I'm 90% sure the NVMe white list has nothing to do with overheating. The console will only be pushing the drive in sequential read mode, where heat output is very low.
Here is the case of the Western Digital SN850, a NVMe SSD capable of 7GB/s without any heatsink:

The temperature stabilizes at ~47ºC after 5-6min in constant sequential read (which not even the PS5 is going to push). There's no way that sequential reads are generating temperature throttlings in these NVMe drives.

Takashi Moshizuki's statement on that is:

Adding support for additional drives will be enabled with a firmware update that also unlocks higher cooling-fan speeds

People seem to be conflating the firmware whitelist and the dynamic fan profiles as interdependent because of this sentence. However, dynamic fan profiles have been announced since October and they're most probably not related to the add-in NVMe capability.

 

[iroboto]

The console will only be pushing the drive in sequential read mode

I mean, I agree most of the time it will only be reading sure for gameplay usage. But you gotta put the games onto the drive before you can start reading them off.
These games are in the 25-100GB range. You're likely to spend more than 100s loading games onto the drive if you're transferring from your internal.
The more games you swap in and out, the more you need to deal with this.

Downloading titles should be relatively tame though.