Framerate in Movies

This time...

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London Geezer

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The discussion was started in the 3D Technology and Hardware forum, and since i have many questions to be asked, i thought i'd move it on here since it has no relation to 3D graphics per se...


First questions:

Will fps in movies ever get bumped to, say, 48fps (i'm just doubling what it is currently, i can't think of an arbitrary number, as long as it's higher than the current 24fps...) or higher? Will we be stuck at 24fps movies forever?

If changes are made, how high will the cost for restructuring all movie theaters and such be? Too high to bother?

How would that affect current technology? TVs can display games that run at 60fps (although interlaced) so i guess it shouldn't be too much of a problem...

Thanks for your thoughts...
 
I think we are probably stuck on 24 fps for as long as film is still in use.

Basically in that 24th of a second you have to take a photograph, depending on the lighting conditions etc in use the shot may take as long as that to expose that frame. That is quite a longish exposure however so it may be that they would simply go for a faster film, and put up with the extra graininess.

CC
 
So i guess nothing's gonna happen any time soon.... And we're worried about HDTV resolutions and stuff, i'd rather have smoother, more fluid videos than radically higher res... Mixture of both would be nice.

Sometimes the low framerate in movies does irritate me, especially in the last 5 years. Must be because i trained my eyes with computer games and such so i know what to look for and can spot errors more easily. Damn....
Sometimes ignorance is bliss...
 
I stopped reading at
...MaxiVision48â„¢ will set a new standard for a compelling visual experience...

You know, pretty much allergic to PR. Considering these guys have not been in the news lately so to speak...
 
london-boy said:
First questions:

Will fps in movies ever get bumped to, say, 48fps (i'm just doubling what it is currently, i can't think of an arbitrary number, as long as it's higher than the current 24fps...) or higher? Will we be stuck at 24fps movies forever?
There's a possibility that either the IMAX/Omnimax use a higher framerate - if not, I do recall seeing a documentary on a system that used ~60Hz (IIRC) framerate. This, apparently, gave a much more convincing result (probably due to the all the sampling issues previously described - the playback would also be better)

The problem, however, is the additional stress on the film during projection leading to a traditional projecter becoming an expensive shredder! IMAX/Omnimax use a "rolling loop" projector which is far more gentle on the film.
If changes are made, how high will the cost for restructuring all movie theaters and such be? Too high to bother?
I can't see it happening given that we're moving to digitial projection now anyway.
 
london-boy said:
So i guess nothing's gonna happen any time soon.... And we're worried about HDTV resolutions and stuff, i'd rather have smoother, more fluid videos than radically higher res... Mixture of both would be nice.

Sometimes the low framerate in movies does irritate me, especially in the last 5 years. Must be because i trained my eyes with computer games and such so i know what to look for and can spot errors more easily. Damn....
Sometimes ignorance is bliss...

As far as motion picture theaters go, I doubt we will see any changes at all until the switch to a different (digital) distribution and projection system. What and when that will be remains to be seen. Personally, I hope they don't go for an extension-of-HDTV format, as that would mean a standardisation on the first digital format that doesn't suck horribly for the purpuse. But considering how long such a new standard is likely to be in use, I think it would be silly not to stay cool and wait for better solutions. Basically wait to the point where you can say that "OK, this is good enough for a top experience at the top theaters, and overkill for everything else". This will ensure a standard with both quality and longevity - good for everyone. What we absolutely don't want is longevity without the quality. And that's what we might get.

Just look at todays TV standards for a chilling example.

Computers and home cinema will keep progressing. For theaters to standardize on anything less than the equivalent of 70mm film would be stupid IMHO. And the proposed formats aren't anywhere close to that in most respects.

To give you an idea of what I think the industry should aim for, I'd like to see a format which is (better than) 10000x4000 pixels at 100 Hz. If you're interested in why, you'll have to work out angles of view et cetera. (Yes, I know the datarates would be staggering by todays standards.)

This is not realistic today, but IMHO the next format should be based on the limits of human perception, rather than what can be produced cheaply right now. If it can't be done now, wait a while. Set the bar high.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure the American Society of Cinematographers doesn't agree with me. :(


This is the best system I've seen described, and is a good read to get some lightweight feeling of where it's currently at (extended HDTV - yuk!), and where it could be heading.

http://www.cinematography.com/index.asp?newsID=112
 
Movies give me a headache sometimes. Especially on that big screen in theaters. Whether it will happen any time soon or not, it sure would be nice IMO.
 
Entropy said:
To give you an idea of what I think the industry should aim for, I'd like to see a format which is (better than) 10000x4000 pixels at 100 Hz. If you're interested in why, you'll have to work out angles of view et cetera. (Yes, I know the datarates would be staggering by todays standards.)


Hell that's a lot... I'd be happy at a marginally better resolution than today's but at 100Hz...

100Hz is bliss on my eyes... Like looking at a warm knife slicing through butter.... Just bliss.... :D
 
london-boy said:
100Hz is bliss on my eyes... Like looking at a warm knife slicing through butter.... Just bliss.... :D
No. Those are the advertisements .. the real movie comes afterwards.
 
Simon F said:
No. Those are the advertisements .. the real movie comes afterwards.


Psssssssst.... Brit humour.... You know what happens to us when we make too many brit jokes on here right.....

(Well at least it wasn't a very expected sexual-related joke on my statement...)
 
Yablo said:
Well, I am aware of one company that has been attempting to increase the fps of movies to 48 using film and minor uprades to current projectors.
http://www.maxivisioncinema.com/

They don't seem to have met with any success, however
:(

Just glanced through their pdf: They really don't seem to understand motion blur but anyway...

They confirm that standard cinema cameras have a shutter that is only open for ~1/50th of a second, which clearly is insufficient to capture at 24fps without temporal aliasing.

Their system, OTOH, which displays at 48fps, uses a camera with a ~1/100th of a second shutter speed. This is also inadequate but is better - it's analogous to the way that a point sampled ~1000x~700 image would look better than a 640x480 one because the former has twice as many pixels. You can still get aliasing however.
 
http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html

Has some interesting info a bit of which is related to this topic imo.


http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#2.9


HDTV in the US is part of the ATSC DTV format. The resolution and frame rates of DTV in the US generally correspond to the ATSC recommendations for SD (640x480 and 704x480 at 24p, 30p, 60p, 60i) and HD (1280x720 at 24p, 30p, and 60p; 1920x1080 at 24p, 30p and 60i). (24p means 24 progressive frames/sec, 60i means 60 interlaced fields/sec [30 frames/sec].) The current DVD-Video spec covers all of SD except 60p. It's expected that future DVD players will output digital video signals from existing discs in SDTV formats. The HD formats are 2.7 and 6 times the resolution of DVD, and the 60p version is twice the frame rate. The ITU-R is working on BT.709 HDTV standards of 1125/60 (1920x1035/30) (same as SMPTE 240M, similar to Japan's analog MUSE HDTV) and 1250/50 (1920x1152/25) which may be used in Europe. The latter is 5.3 times the resolution of DVD's 720x576/25 format. HD maximum data rate is usually 19.4 Mbps, almost twice the maximum DVD-Video data rate. In other words, DVD-Video does not currently support HDTV video content.


I have to give credit for these links to the truly excellent resource site, DVDRhelp.com.

http://www.dvdrhelp.com/


Ah, remember that Star Trek episode "The Trouble with Tribbles"? Well, the author of that piece is the prolific sci-fi author David Gerrold and he recently posted some thoughts in one of his blogs some might find interesting regarding films.

http://www.gerrold.com/future/future.htm
 
Ugh I so hate interlacing ... the spatial aliasing makes everything so difficult. Why do we still need to suffer it with HDTV to get a decent temporal resolution?

They should design codecs which do motion estimation/compensation at full resolution, and only after that pick odd/even fields for DFD coding (with transform coding you could probably just take the continuous basis functions for the transform and correct the other field using the coefficients found and have it look pretty good, although Im only guessing here). It would only take a little more bandwith than interlaced coding, but would make stuff like format conversion so much easier.

Oh BTW, Id be really surprised if that idea isnt patented ...
 
Simon F said:
Just glanced through their pdf: They really don't seem to understand motion blur but anyway...

They confirm that standard cinema cameras have a shutter that is only open for ~1/50th of a second, which clearly is insufficient to capture at 24fps without temporal aliasing.

Their system, OTOH, which displays at 48fps, uses a camera with a ~1/100th of a second shutter speed. This is also inadequate but is better - it's analogous to the way that a point sampled ~1000x~700 image would look better than a 640x480 one because the former has twice as many pixels. You can still get aliasing however.

I don't wan't to quibble again about the 1/50th of a second being a (common) limit rather than an absolute. The only point I wanted to make really in our discussion was that motion blur is a far less important factor than the filmmakers working within the limitations imposed by the 24 fps frame-rate.

To support that contention, I'll quote Martin Scorsese from the same pdf you refer to.

"As it is, filmmakers know that any pictorial
element that moves across the frame too briskly will
fragment into blurred, jagged, “strobingâ€￾ pieces. So we
have rules (frequently ignored) about how quickly any
given lens can be panned, or how quickly an object can be
allowed to travel from one side of the frame to the other
in order to prevent these motion distortions. We are
forced to “panâ€￾ moving objects (which keeps them stationary
in the frame) in order to prevent this strobing, or
accept these distortions and hope that sound effects will
carry the viewer’s suspension of disbelief past these
visual anomalies. Sometimes these motion distortions are
desirable, as in many moments in the opening of Steven
Spielberg’s SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, when they were actually
exaggerated for specific aesthetic reasons. But new aesthetic possibilities
would emerge if we could do the reverse of that and capture
near perfect, lifelike motion and more of the inner life of
actor’s performances. We could still introduce motion distortions
anytime we thought it would add to our creative interpretation, but
with MaxiVision48, we would have that choice and new, visually compelling
opportunities.
— Martin Scorsese, in a January 6, 2000 letter to journalist
Deroy Murdock."

I don't know if it can be said clearer.
Note complete lack of referral to motion blur fixing the problem.

And the reason I care enough to go through this exercise, is that the claim is made over and over again that just because 24 fps is used in movie theaters, it is a sufficient frame-rate for computer game play. Which is patently false, since the reasons why 24 fps "works" in movies do not apply to video games. Or that 30 fps would be sufficient if we only had motion blur (a more reasonable but still demonstrably absurd contention within the video game context).
 
They confirm that standard cinema cameras have a shutter that is only open for ~1/50th of a second, which clearly is insufficient to capture at 24fps without temporal aliasing.

Actually this isn't 100% correct... Availability of light (natural, artificial (strobes in particular since they freeze motion)), camera aperature, focal length, and film emulsion (speed (including wavelength sensitivity), grain type), and processing can all effect sharpness/clarity of the resultant image even within a fixed shutter speed. Also pretty much most film cameras can crank quite a lot faster than 24fps (typically from 24-200). You can usually see this in action scenes where everything is slow motion (e.g. a flying helecopter with slow turning rotors).

For theaters to standardize on anything less than the equivalent of 70mm film would be stupid IMHO. And the proposed formats aren't anywhere close to that in most respects.

DLP equipt theaters are already doing this (lower than even 35mm). And some movies are also shot at lower resolutions than film (e.g. Attack of the Clones)...

To give you an idea of what I think the industry should aim for, I'd like to see a format which is (better than) 10000x4000 pixels at 100 Hz. If you're interested in why, you'll have to work out angles of view et cetera. (Yes, I know the datarates would be staggering by todays standards.)

I'll say... It takes a pretty beefy setup to just to a digital shoot with a Thomson Viper rig considering the 1080p 4:4:4 10-bit log RGB streams off of it already hit around 3Gbps...

It's already a logistical headache with IMAX... An IMAX camera will burn through a standard 1000' reel in about 3 and half minutes at 24fps (and obviously much short if you crank the camera at 48 or 60 fps)...

Ugh I so hate interlacing ... the spatial aliasing makes everything so difficult. Why do we still need to suffer it with HDTV to get a decent temporal resolution?

Because progressive scan images eat up a lot more broadcast bandwidth...
 
archie4oz said:
Because progressive scan images eat up a lot more broadcast bandwidth...

Id say if the industry put it's mind to it they could come up with something better than the completely static trade off between spatial and temporal resolution invented 70 years ago ... the necessary processing power isnt much of a problem IMO.
 
Simon F said:
london-boy said:
First questions:

Will fps in movies ever get bumped to, say, 48fps (i'm just doubling what it is currently, i can't think of an arbitrary number, as long as it's higher than the current 24fps...) or higher? Will we be stuck at 24fps movies forever?
There's a possibility that either the IMAX/Omnimax use a higher framerate - if not, I do recall seeing a documentary on a system that used ~60Hz (IIRC) framerate. This, apparently, gave a much more convincing result (probably due to the all the sampling issues previously described - the playback would also be better)

The problem, however, is the additional stress on the film during projection leading to a traditional projecter becoming an expensive shredder! IMAX/Omnimax use a "rolling loop" projector which is far more gentle on the film.
If changes are made, how high will the cost for restructuring all movie theaters and such be? Too high to bother?
I can't see it happening given that we're moving to digitial projection now anyway.

Yes, some IMAX films actually are 60 fps.
 
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