Fixed powerpacks versus replaceable AA's in controllers *spawn

[Shifty Geezer]

I use a Wacom mouse on a tablet. No wires, no batteries. Annoyingly though, Wacom have stopped supporting this is all but their expensive top-end devices, so although I'd like to update, having to run a mouse as well as the tablet is too inconvenient.

 

[mrcorbo]

I guess we have differing view points then. An IR remote (which is, I just realized, the only device that still relies on AA batteries in my household) is perhaps the exception for me where AA batteries are tolerated. It's tolerated because the IR remote will survive for about a month with fully charged batteries, until I will have to worry about finding a new spare.

Any device I use that has a life span of less than a day or a week would be pretty much an annoyance to keep track with an additional charger. Under this category for me fall devices such as pretty much any CE device in my household (laptops, tablets, smartphone, and yes, including gaming controllers as well). If all of them relied on AA batteries, I would have to keep track of AA batteries and at least a spare to keep them going when one of them dies due to an empty battery. Given the unlikely hood that all of these devices use the same batteries or amount, I would need a few spares for each device.

I had thought that I had said all I was going to say on this subject, but you keep saying these things based on your assumptions and your assumptions are wrong. Eneloops take 2-4 hours to charge and their discharge rate is much slower than that. In real life, you just don't have things all going dead at the same time. It doesn't happen. A 4-unit charger populated with batteries is enough for most (it's all I've ever needed), 2 of those would be the absolute maximum an average family would ever need. You can either consider what someone who has actually been using this model for years is telling you or you can continue to base your opinions on your incorrect assumptions. As of now, when weighing one option against the other you've been effectively leaning on the scale.

 

[mrcorbo]

Logitech G700 and G700s mice. As far as I'm concerned, this is the pinnacle of the Logitech line, and for my (non gaming) use is superior to any MS, Razer or other offering.

Standard rechargeable AA battery. Strangely enough, even though I use the USB cable exclusively to charge it (MS should have done this with their controllers, allow the controller to be a charger for the standard exchangeable batteries), I probably wouldn't have three of these mice now if it had a built in battery. Perhaps its my usage cycles, but over the past few years I've had to replace the battery at least once for each of them. Even a great battery struggles to survive a full shift, and any degradation is very noticeable. Since I despise having to work tethered, more time in the cable would be a huge deterrent. Only if Logitech promised that an integrated battery would double charge time would I even consider it.

Anyway, you wanted an example, there it is.

I had a Logitech cordless revolution mouse as part of a high end bluetooth mouse and keyboard set. The mouse ended up failing and I replaced it with a Performace Mouse MX. The old mouse had a sealed battery, the new one has a standard rechargeable "AA" inside. Clearly something that they thought was an improvement and probably something that their customers asked for.

 

[Phil]

I had thought that I had said all I was going to say on this subject, but you keep saying these things based on your assumptions and your assumptions are wrong. Eneloops take 2-4 hours to charge and their discharge rate is much slower than that. In real life, you just don't have things all going dead at the same time. It doesn't happen. A 4-unit charger populated with batteries is enough for most (it's all I've ever needed), 2 of those would be the absolute maximum an average family would ever need. You can either consider what someone who has actually been using this model for years is telling you or you can continue to base your opinions on your incorrect assumptions. As of now, when weighing one option against the other you've been effectively leaning on the scale.

I appreciate you trying to lecture me with some form of authority, but really, you don't. Contrary to your belief, I've actually been there too, so I am actually basing my conclusions on my past experiences.

Truth is, this topic has evolved from simply pitting a controller with an internal battery against one with AA/rechargables. It has evolved to the point where we are effectively discussing the pros and cons of devices either providing an internal battery and a pretty commonly used interface to charge it (doesn't matter if it's USB or a power cable really) or a device that requires a few AA sized batteries that requires an external charger (assuming you can't just plug in a cable and charge it within the device itself).

I originially raised the point that it's likely only convinient (though point in case, convinience is subjective and depends on what you are used to and past experiences) to live with a device with AA type of batteries and external charger if these devices are kept to a minimum. In other words, the more devices you have that rely on an external charger, the less of a convinience it will become. Why? Imagine if not only your IR remote and your Xbox controllers required an external charger - but also all your other household devices, like telephone, smartphone, laptop, tablet, heck, throw in a PSP/Vita for the fun of it as well.

If all these devices required an external charger and possibly an investment of a suitable spare so that you could keep these devices running with as little downtime as possible, the number of batteries you would need to maintain grows.

Thankfully, reality isn't like that and the world has moved on to a large extend. Phones, tablets, laptops, heck even controllers have come as far that we have internal, sometimes non-user-replacable, batteries that can be charged by hooking it up to a simple USB charger. It's effectively as convinient as a electric toothbrush, that you take from it's station, use it, then place back for it to charge. A DS3/4 controller can be exactly that - after every play session you simply plug it in (hook it up to the console) and when you want to continue playing, it's ready to go, fully-charged.

Thankfully, most of *my* devices function on this basis: My laptop, my tablet, my PSP, my headsets, my smartphone, my telephone.

Well, that's not quite true. My IR remote is that one device in my household (that gets regular usage and is a necessity) that relies on batteries. It requires 4 AAA batteries and I usually just feed it non-rechargable ones, that I swap out when the batteries die. I could buy a charger and yes, it wouldn't be that big of an inconvinience to charge them externally with a pair of spares.

I still maintain though, if every device in my household that sees regular usage and has a life span of less than a day or week on a full charge required the use of an external charger with possible spares, it would result in a bigger inconvinience than simply plugging them in after every usage to maintain a full power state. If this doesn't apply to you (although given you are talking about a typical household and a maximum of 2 chargers, I can't imagine you having that many devices - hence my initial point, which is more or less in agreement with yours, it isn't that big of an inconvinience) fair enough.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think different devices have different benefits from different sources. I have a bike-light with a separate battery pack that charges via mains. The positive is it lasts longer than rechargeable AAs. The downside is I have to charge it and can't just pop some batteries in. No worries, every 3 days I top it up and make sure not to forget! I've other bike lights that use AAs and I keep some charged. I've also got video lights that use AAs, and a fancy field recorder. I can swap batteries between devices, keep a few rechargeables spare in case, and it's no hassle.

Similarly, connecting my phone and tablet to my PC USB while using to keep it topped up is no hassle. My PS3 headset has an internal battery that makes it small and light which is a plus. the new Sony 7.1 PS4 headset doesn't use AAs either, and it'd look pretty clunky if it did. Some RC toys use batteries that can be replaced, providing an instant 'recharge' by swapping them out. Others use the increased energy density of lithiums to provide more energy but no fast recharge once they run out.

It's really just a matter of horses for courses. There are pros and cons to both forms of portable energy supply. The only real negative is when companies don't provide access to lithiums to replace them, because they don't have a limitless lifespan and will die at some point. But if that's not going to be for 10 years in a realistic use, or the device was disposably priced (cheap RC helicopter), it doesn't much matter.

For controllers, either option has pros and cons. If given the task of designing a controller, I'd look to use AAs in the handles in a carefully designed chassis where they also function as the force-feedback weights, and provide recharging via USB cable (not sure that's even possible for AAs, not at any decent speed). This would make for the best of all worlds, but at a cost. If that cost is prohibitive, I'd go with a lithium pack that can be plugged in the bottom and replaced. If that's too expensive, either AAs or inbuilt pack doesn't make a great deal of difference as long as the battery life is good (PS4's isn't great due to Sony's crazy LED choice).

Regards primitiveness of solutions, AAs predate lithiums and so are more primitive. Lithiums themselves are still based on the same archaic electrochemical principals. Until we get fuel cells (still waiting...) or fusion energy, or wireless energy, every portable energy solution is still pretty primitive. Wireless energy is the only truly hassle-free solution. Every other solution requires user intervention.

 

[AzBat]

Good sum ups Shifty & Phil.

If I had a choice I would keep the ability to use AA in my controllers for emergency uses, but I would want a rechargeable battery pack included standard. Maybe make the the rechargeable battery pack fit in a AA compartment so when it's removed you can just add AA's if you want. Not like how it was done on the 360 with a seprate AA battery pack. I think the XB1 does this now. If they just include the rechargeable battery standard I think a lot of the complaints here would be gone. They could still make money by making the included battery NiMH with enough life to last one day of full use & then sell a longer life Li-Ion version. They could also sell USB charging cables(with the LED charging light) separately. They could even sell their own charging stations/cradles. There are still ways to monetize accessories, but still making the controller come standard with a rechargeable battery. Do that & I think most of the complaints here would be gone.

Tommy McClain

 

[joker454]

Joker already covered that one. He doesn't need chargers because his phone lasts all day on one charge. If everyone else was sensible and not living in the dark ages, they'd have similar (Windows) phones.

Of course, his phone only manages that because it's a 6 inch phablet, released a few months ago, with a large powerpack and a suitable price-tag. But of course people buying small phones or using older phones on older tech are completely off their tree because their phones won't last a whole day on one charge. The only intelligent thing to do is get rid of your phone, buy a large (Windows*) phone, and ditch one's mobile phone chargers. And then, having been sensible regards one's phone, one won't have chargers around for charging other devices, so the sensible thing to do then is ditch those devices and buy ones that take AAs. Everyone else making difference choices is plain crazy!!

* that really doesn't make any difference

Finally someone understands! More seriously, Samsung Note's seem to be the same, hence why most all the girls I book have switched to those because they got sick and tired of their phone batteries dying mid day and because they all seem to love large screens. The rare girl still rocking an iPhone always shows to my shoots with a charger in hand which they immediately setup someplace because iPhone battery life is just terrible. Oh just fyi, you once again reminded my how brutally expensive it must be to live in Europe given your comment on phone pricing. The Nokia 1520 that I use is actually free to get here, so it's not expensive at all. In my particular case they paid me $300 in credits and gave me the phone free because they had messed up the order, which was a nice bonus I forget how much more life costs outside the USA sometimes, the difference is really crazy as posts like yours occasionally remind me. Heck I haven't paid for a phone in many many years, I forgot that's not how things work elsewhere. I think I need to start putting "In the USA" disclaimers on my posts from now on to account for the apparently huge cost of living difference between here and places like Europe. That's probably what causes such confusion sometimes. So far we've figured out that Phones and PC parts cost a fortune in Europe, are batteries savagely expensive there? Maybe that explains why no one apparently seems to use rechargeables there as much as we do here? Like a 4 pack of rechargable eneloops is $11 here with no tax and free shippng, what do those cost in Europe, are they like $100+ there?

In real life, you just don't have things all going dead at the same time. It doesn't happen. A 4-unit charger populated with batteries is enough for most (it's all I've ever needed)

That's exactly what we have, a 4 unit AA charger always plugged in and we swap batteries as they die. All our batteries are like this with spares so we never run out of anything. Multiple tool batteries in the garage, swapped as needed so the leaf blower, circular saw or whatever area always fully cordless and operational. Two mower batteries, one dies just swap it and keep cutting grass without having to pull out a 100 foot power cable. 3 NPFV100 batteries for my heaps of Sony video camera gear so I never have to be plugging in my video cameras on shoots, I just swap and keep working cordless. Three 220 w/hr v-mount batteries so if one of my led light arrays starts to go low, I swap and keep filming without having cables everywhere for the girls to trip over. Finally 4 AA batteries always on charge for just about everything else including keyboard, mice, non playstation game controllers, weather stations, remote controls, etc. All of the above are in closets so they are never seen, I prefer that because I find cables and chargers in public view to just look hideous and yes about as retro as an answering machine. I can't stand it. This way everything looks clean, and we never have any downtime on any device, ever, and no need to drag out cords.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

In other words, the more devices you have that rely on an external charger, the less of a convinience it will become. Why?

Exactly...why?

Imagine if not only your IR remote and your Xbox controllers required an external charger - but also all your other household devices, like telephone, smartphone, laptop, tablet, heck, throw in a PSP/Vita for the fun of it as well.

If all these devices required an external charger and possibly an investment of a suitable spare so that you could keep these devices running with as little downtime as possible, the number of batteries you would need to maintain grows.

Trying to avoid a repeat lecture... but, not so much, really. Most devices I own that accept standard rechargeables are AA. A couple of remotes are AAA. Fortunately, my chargers (both of them) charge AA and AAA. So all I need are enough spares to keep the cycle going. Since things rarely die at the same time, I don't need anything like full spares for every device. In fact, although I have plenty of extra cells I've picked up here and there, I only keep 4 AA and 4 AAA charged and ready, and I only use one of my two.chargers to do this. I can't remember this ever causing a problem, and off the top of my head this is for a total of 18 AA and 8 AAA batteries in regular use around the house. There are no doubt more in kids toys and such that get light use, and I only discover a rechargeable there when it infrequently dies.

That's it. You grossly overestimate the complexity. I need one charger and one charger's worth of spares of each type for my entire house. I don't need to keep track of when a device last got fresh batteries or any such nonsense... I swap batteries when they die, and within hours a new set of spares is ready.

It's effectively as convinient as a electric toothbrush, that you take from it's station, use it, then place back for it to charge.

Dissimilar comparisons don't prove a point. A toothbrush has usage cycles lasting at most a few minutes a few times a day (I hope!), available downtime between cycles consistently measured in hours, and is always in the same place. Inductive charging to integrated battery makes plenty of sense in this scenario.

Other cordless devices may differ. Take a cordless circular or reciprocating saw, for example. It may have usage cycles of hours, only minutes of downtime, and may need to travel all over a building or site throughout the day. Inductive charging to an integrated battery in this case would be retarded! Neither does this case prove MS way is "correct."

Game controllers and many other devices fall somewhere in between, or even outside those examples. TV remotes may have short usage cycles, but aren't always left in the same place, downtime at the wrong time is not tolerated, nor is being tethered by a cord, although this case isn't clear cut either and some smart remotes have tried the integrated route.

Game controller use may vary. Plenty of people use them like a toothbrush. In other households where there are four teenage boys (and dad) fighting over gaming time, the controller might see half a day of use not infrequently, and keeping it charged becomes less trivial.

I agree with most others that neither solution is terribly inconvenient for the majority of use cases, though there may be cases where one or the other is, and preferences and habits vary. I like flexibility. And knowing that my kids not minding (returning device to charger) won't cost me any gaming enjoyment when I finally get a chance to play. But MS could go further and provide the best of all worlds, and I wish they had.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Like a 4 pack of rechargable eneloops is $11 here with no tax and free shippng, what do those cost in Europe, are they like $100+ there?

Not at all. 4x 2900 mAh for under a fiver from a company I've used lots. Rechargeables are priced very much as a commodity item with lots of competition, although I have been surprised by how few people seem to use them, preferring disposables. Which annoyed my Green streak, but with the introduction of widespread disposable battery recycling, that's not so much an issue now. I like the idea of a solar recharger sitting on the windowsill as free energy, but that's a little pricey and needs decent planning which I'm crap at.

There will be other differences in Europe though. eg. Rooms are smaller and so cables less obtrusive as people sit closer to the TV. We've always been happy to plug a cable in playing PS3 multiplayer when someone's battery is low, using a USB extender.

At the end of the day, both AA and internal powerpacks require management. One requires maintaining an inventory of charged units; the other, plugging in devices to keep them fresh. Preference is going to be individual in either case.

 

[joker454]

Not at all. 4x 2900 mAh for under a fiver from a company I've used lots. Rechargeables are priced very much as a commodity item with lots of competition, although I have been surprised by how few people seem to use them, preferring disposables. Which annoyed my Green streak, but with the introduction of widespread disposable battery recycling, that's not so much an issue now. I like the idea of a solar recharger sitting on the windowsill as free energy, but that's a little pricey and needs decent planning which I'm crap at.

Ah ok, we have solar panels on our home as well, being California and all made that a no brainer and they are a free install here. Basically they setup the entire system for no charge and maintain it forever for no charge, you just pay them a monthly fixed fee for 20 years that's less than your current average electric bill and they lock that rate for 20 years so you can't lose. That's also why I'm so into rechargeable batteries because it's such an easy resource to self generate here and I'm all into that. Hence why I'm a battery whore of sorts I guess. The only piece missing is a Tesla Model S...once day when it's affordable

 

[Shifty Geezer]

In the UK, solar panels on the roof are operated where you buy them outright for thousands, and then sell electricity to the energy boards, meaning long term profitability but significant cost. Solar heating proves far more popular. Solar chargers for batteries are strangely rare and expensive. Considering the huge advances in solar efficiency over recent years, the fact we still have crappy silicon collectors that take a few days to charge a cell is kinda disappointing, and you still have to pay top dollar for that.

If one looks at other common items like fridges, there's been a generally shift in design to add functionality. Seems to me a no brainer to include a solar cell on the roof and common battery charger in the kitchen or something. If chargers came as standard with homes or...TV or something, people would use them. But when people have to make the choice to go and buy one, they seem reluctant to. I guess it just doesn't occur to them.

Also, whatever happened to the moldable plastic battery such that the product case could be the battery as well?

 

[Jwm]

I do not like non-user replaceable batteries period... Had too many keyboards, power drills, lights, Sony controllers (sorry Sony), headphones, laptops, PDA's, etc., all fail at some point in their life due to max battery cycles being reached.

I grew up racing RC cars in the 80's, so I have been around for the early medical grade NiCd cells that could only be charged once per day or they would take damage, to later NiCd's that you could charge at high amp as soon as you took the car off the track (as many times per day as you wanted). Long story short, for me the best battery is one that I can replace latter when needed. Even if I have to unsolder the cells just to replace the one that went bad.

I even run my Roomba on a 4-cell 5000mah LiPo instead of the crap NiMh they come with, darn thing will run for 3-hours on a charge now. I tried developer A123 cells but I could not mount them in the old case. haha

With my DiNovo edge keyboard I finally gave up and made them wired, there was just some bug that caused them to eat packs. My PS3 is just a wired controller with around 45-mins of life per charge.

Any new keyboard I buy I get wired or AA, same with mice. If a modern expensive LiPo is only rated at 500 cycles (some are much more, I stopped racing and flying in the late 2000's), imagine what some of these cheap cells are rated at. For example - I have a Blade heli that you can get generic cells for, supposed to be rated for the same discharge. After 50 flights they are tossed in the trash, while an expensive pack can last me years.

So in a nutshell that is why I prefer to have the ability to use AA or easily swappable LiPo/Lion. ;p

 

[-tkf-]

Ah ok, we have solar panels on our home as well, being California and all made that a no brainer and they are a free install here. Basically they setup the entire system for no charge and maintain it forever for no charge, you just pay them a monthly fixed fee for 20 years that's less than your current average electric bill and they lock that rate for 20 years so you can't lose. That's also why I'm so into rechargeable batteries because it's such an easy resource to self generate here and I'm all into that. Hence why I'm a battery whore of sorts I guess. The only piece missing is a Tesla Model S...once day when it's affordable

The system we had here was so successful they had to shut it down. Over a year my panels produce around 6000kw. Everything my household isn't using is send to the grid.
The same amount that I send to the grid can I take back free of charge. In around 8 years my investment is paid back, and from there I have free energy the next 12 years.

After those 12 years I need some rechargeable batteries

 

[joker454]

The system we had here was so successful they had to shut it down. Over a year my panels produce around 6000kw. Everything my household isn't using is send to the grid.
The same amount that I send to the grid can I take back free of charge. In around 8 years my investment is paid back, and from there I have free energy the next 12 years.

After those 12 years I need some rechargeable batteries

Our system is guaranteed to produce at least 11,400 kWh per year by the installer although it makes over 13,000 typically and the excess we don't use the local power company buys from us. So similar to you although not sure why they shut you down!

 

[-tkf-]

Our system is guaranteed to produce at least 11,400 kWh per year by the installer although it makes over 13,000 typically and the excess we don't use the local power company buys from us. So similar to you although not sure why they shut you down!

13.000!

OT:
The basic idea was, every household uses x amount of KW pr year. Now if we can get some to invest in solar power that covers their household we can add that to our green energy pool. The problem with Solar is that in Denmark it's not there when you need it, the sun shines during the day when you are at work. And not at all during winter, januar = around 66% of a good day during the summer.
However the electricity is needed elsewhere, so our surplus energy production is just being used by others on the grid. And when we need power we can take the same amount back without paying for it. It's like a battery..

Surprise surprise, thanks to a solar panel market in severe problems with over capacity and Germany making big changes to their solar politics, the prices on solar energy systems went through the floor. So suddenly it was a very healthy investment. Problem was that the price on energy in Denmark is heavily influence by tax. One of the reasons is to reduce energy requirements and force everyone to save energy. So when 60.000 people buys a solar system there is a big price to pay in reduced tax income. Because they are essentially producing their own energy and they don't pay tax.

So they changed the rules to avoid a total melt down, and let those that already had invested have 20 years with the old rules.

So i need some giant battery packs.

 

[RudeCurve]

I do not like non-user replaceable batteries period... Had too many keyboards, power drills, lights, Sony controllers (sorry Sony), headphones, laptops, PDA's, etc., all fail at some point in their life due to max battery cycles being reached.

I grew up racing RC cars in the 80's, so I have been around for the early medical grade NiCd cells that could only be charged once per day or they would take damage, to later NiCd's that you could charge at high amp as soon as you took the car off the track (as many times per day as you wanted). Long story short, for me the best battery is one that I can replace latter when needed. Even if I have to unsolder the cells just to replace the one that went bad.

I even run my Roomba on a 4-cell 5000mah LiPo instead of the crap NiMh they come with, darn thing will run for 3-hours on a charge now. I tried developer A123 cells but I could not mount them in the old case. haha

With my DiNovo edge keyboard I finally gave up and made them wired, there was just some bug that caused them to eat packs. My PS3 is just a wired controller with around 45-mins of life per charge.

Any new keyboard I buy I get wired or AA, same with mice. If a modern expensive LiPo is only rated at 500 cycles (some are much more, I stopped racing and flying in the late 2000's), imagine what some of these cheap cells are rated at. For example - I have a Blade heli that you can get generic cells for, supposed to be rated for the same discharge. After 50 flights they are tossed in the trash, while an expensive pack can last me years.

So in a nutshell that is why I prefer to have the ability to use AA or easily swappable LiPo/Lion. ;p

Lipos are awesome...except when they puff

Speaking of helis I got a 5000mAh 7S 65C Lipo pack for my 600 size heli a couple months ago and it cost $130 vs $5 for three 350mAh 1S Lipos for my 100 class micro.

 

[Phil]

Exactly...why?

Because the more devices you have, the more batteries you have/need. If I have 4 controllers, I need 8 AA batteries. If I use 2 of them on a regular basis, it would be beneficial to have 2 extra pairs as spare, bringing the total amount to 12. Now add my IR remote that has 4 AAA batteries and I'm at 8 AAA batteries (active and spare). You do the simple math. Since we are talking about a hypothetical situation where the majority of your household devices use rechargable batteries, the number continues to grow. This would be even further exagerated if your devices have different types of batteries.

Then there's another point; rechargable batteries should not be mixed. In other words, if you have a device A that requires 4 AAA batteries and a device B that uses 2 AAA batteries, *I* wouldn't split up the allocated set of 4 batteries from device A to power device B. If I do, then I will likely end up with batteries with differing life-cycles which would decrease the overal life cycle of my allocation for that device. IMO you would especially want to avoid having an allocation of 4 batteries where 2 are brand new and 2 have been used extensively, which would limit the performance of your device to the life-cycle of the 2 older ones.

Of course you can mix them if you don't care about it, but I have always taken care to avoid this. Probably because I used to buy the more expensive types of rechargable batteries and thus wanted to use them as efficiently as possible. If I mix them, it's between devices that use the same batteries and same number of them (like mixing spares between controllers is ok), but I wouldn't break up allocated sets of batteries. People may differ. Maybe you don't.

Anyway, this brings us back to what is more convinient: 4 controllers (I actually own this many [DS3] controllers) with a pair of two spares and my IR remote with 4 AAA and an extra spare - and we're at a total of 12 AA and 8 AAA batteries. Then add one or two chargers.

Compared to... well having 4 controllers with an internal non-user-replacable battery that I simply have to plug in to charge, that don't require any external device, just a cable and perhaps a bit of self-discipline to remember to plug them in after usage...

Dissimilar comparisons don't prove a point. A toothbrush has usage cycles lasting at most a few minutes a few times a day (I hope!), available downtime between cycles consistently measured in hours, and is always in the same place. Inductive charging to integrated battery makes plenty of sense in this scenario.

Other cordless devices may differ.... (snip)

Ah, hold on. A controller isn't any other cordless device though. Well, I am assuming here that you don't take your controller with you while gardening or to the shops or any other place while using them. I'm assuming here that your usage of the controller is limited to when playing your console, which - not too disimilar to the electric toothbrush example I made - would pretty much confine you to the place where you have your console set up.

My example wasn't comparing using/charging cycles, but simply that a gaming controller is used in a pretty defined area and with a bit of self-discipline of connecting the controller to your console after usage (like connecting your electric toothbrush to your station), your controller is always ready to go with a 10+ hour of continuous play cycle. No external charger, no spares, no extra batteries.


Now as I mentioned before, what is convinient is pretty subjective and depends on what you're used to, likely the number of devices that force a certain habbit and your past experiences. If you've successfully structured your life and household around charging batteries and spares and find it convinient, fair enough. Doesn't mean it's convinient for the next guy. I'm one of them, and I have moved on, never looked back. Changing my household around to accomondate multiple devices with rechargable batteries would be an inconvinience to me, knowing how easy it could be instead.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Because the more devices you have, the more batteries you have/need. If I have 4 controllers, I need 8 AA batteries. If I use 2 of them on a regular basis, it would be beneficial to have 2 extra pairs as spare, bringing the total amount to 12...

I disagree with that. You only need as many spares as you'll have to swap out at any given moment. Realistically, batteries aren't all going to die at the same time and need replacing simultaneously. What'll happen in real use is one device will fail, you swap its batteries with the charged spares, and put the old batteries on to charge as the new spares for the next device to die.

It's like lightbulbs. You don't need a spare lightbulb for every fitting in your house. You only realistically need one spare to replace the next bulb that blows, and it'll be enough days between that bulb failure and the next that you can buy a new spare. There'll be rare fringe cases when one spare isn't enough, but they'll be rare, in the same way there'll be rare times when one spare tire isn't enough but that's no reason to carry four spares in your boot (had to get the automotive analogy in there, or this wouldn't be an internet discussion!).

Of course you can mix them if you don't care about it, but I have always taken care to avoid this. Probably because I used to buy the more expensive types of rechargable batteries and thus wanted to use them as efficiently as possible. If I mix them, it's between devices that use the same batteries and same number of them (like mixing spares between controllers is ok), but I wouldn't break up allocated sets of batteries. People may differ. Maybe you don't.

I've a number of devices that use 2, 3, and 4 AAs. Which I use in differing amounts. So managing them to that level would be pretty ridiculous IMO. I'd need to label my 2s, 3s and 4s, and never mix them, and have spares for each type. I think most folk wouldn't even consider it, and just throw batteries together. Batteries are cheap enough that getting new ones and recycling the old isn't a major concern.

And when comparing cost for controllers, the cost of getting some replacement AAs because you've mixed them over the years and they are worn out inefficiently is still much cheaper than buying a whole replacement controller.

 

[mrcorbo]

Then there's another point; rechargable batteries should not be mixed. In other words, if you have a device A that requires 4 AAA batteries and a device B that uses 2 AAA batteries, *I* wouldn't split up the allocated set of 4 batteries from device A to power device B. If I do, then I will likely end up with batteries with differing life-cycles which would decrease the overal life cycle of my allocation for that device. IMO you would especially want to avoid having an allocation of 4 batteries where 2 are brand new and 2 have been used extensively, which would limit the performance of your device to the life-cycle of the 2 older ones.

Of course you can mix them if you don't care about it, but I have always taken care to avoid this. Probably because I used to buy the more expensive types of rechargable batteries and thus wanted to use them as efficiently as possible. If I mix them, it's between devices that use the same batteries and same number of them (like mixing spares between controllers is ok), but I wouldn't break up allocated sets of batteries. People may differ. Maybe you don't.

It's appreciate the desire to maximize battery efficiency, but I think the effort involved here exceeds the benefit. It just doesn't seem to make that much of a difference, at least not one that I've noticed. In fact, I'd argue that rotating your entire collection of batteries around amongst high-drain/low-drain devices will, over time, insure more even leveling across your whole inventory of batteries than dedicating certain batteries to certain devices.

Anyway, this brings us back to what is more convinient: 4 controllers (I actually own this many [DS3] controllers) with a pair of two spares and my IR remote with 4 AAA and an extra spare - and we're at a total of 12 AA and 8 AAA batteries. Then add two chargers.

Compared to... well having 4 controllers with an internal non-user-replacable battery that I simply have to plug in to charge, that don't require any external device, just a cable and perhaps a bit of self-discipline to remember to plug them in after usage...

A simple task, but one which you have to do over and over and over again whether you really need to or not. And to show you how you are over-complicating the battery situation above, what if I were to choose to obsess over getting the most efficient use of the internal batteries in these controllers? I should use this controller today, since I used this controller yesterday and this one the day before that and I don't want to have one controller with lower battery life than the others. Seems silly, right? Well....

Ah, hold on. A controller isn't any other cordless device though. Well, I am assuming here that you don't take your controller with you while gardening or to the shops or any other place while using them. I'm assuming here that your usage of the controller is limited to when playing your console, which - not too disimilar to the electric toothbrush example I made - would pretty much confine you to the place where you have your console set up.

My example wasn't comparing using/charging cycles, but simply that a gaming controller is used in a pretty defined area and with a bit of self-discipline of connecting the controller to your console after usage (like connecting your electric toothbrush to your station), your controller is always ready to go with a 10+ hour of continuous play cycle. No external charger, no spares, no extra batteries.

Not really. The place where I put my 360 controller down (because I can put it down right where it is going to be used) is across the room from where I have to put my PS3 controllers for them to charge. I could put a charger closer, but not close enough to not still have to get up, so at that point I may as well just charge off of available USB ports. I used to have to wrap my controller cords around the controllers and put them away when I was done playing with my older consoles and got pretty used to, with the 360, being able to just turn off the system, put the controller down and continue watching TV or get up and walk away. Having to bring the PS3 controller over to be charged when I am done with it requires objectively more effort. I do it, but I don't consider that self-discipline. I consider it being easily trained .

Now as I mentioned before, what is convinient is pretty subjective and depends on what you're used to, likely the number of devices that force a certain habbit and your past experiences. If you've successfully structured your life and household around charging batteries and spares and find it convinient, fair enough. Doesn't mean it's convinient for the next guy. I'm one of them, and I have moved on, never looked back. Changing my household around to accomondate multiple devices with rechargable batteries would be an inconvinience to me, knowing how easy it could be instead.

A lot of what you are saying is completely valid. I mostly take issue with the way you are representing the rechargeable battery model, since you haven't been representing that model accurately or fairly. And using batteries for portable devices really didn't require any restructuring at all. It just worked, as it always has. I just had to buy the charger/batteries.

 

[Phil]

I disagree with that. You only need as many spares as you'll have to swap out at any given moment. Realistically, batteries aren't all going to die at the same time and need replacing simultaneously. What'll happen in real use is one device will fail, you swap its batteries with the charged spares, and put the old batteries on to charge as the new spares for the next device to die.

Disagree with what? I never said you need 2 pairs of spare, I said beneficial. There's a difference. Maybe you misread what I said. 4 controllers - where every controller requires 2 AA batteries, gives you a total of 8 batteries (I never said pairs). This is of course assuming that you have 4 controllers for the potential to use 4 of them at the same time, like for a local multiplayer session. Anyway, if you prefer to have one pair of spares, limit the number to 10 batteries. If you don't want spares, you're still likely to require 8 batteries at some point. The lightbulb example doesn't really apply to my post, since I never quoted you need a spare for every controller. How many spares are beneficial entirely depends on your usage (or in your example, the failure rate of light bulbs).

It doesn't really change the point of the argument that the more devices you have that rely on rechargable batteries, the more batteries you need. Of course if you want to argue that you may have 10 devices but only ever use one at any given time and they all use the same types of batteries, sure... I guess you could live on 1 set and 1 pair of spares (total of 4 batteries). What will you do when you want to use the other devices too? This just sounds silly to me and doubt that was the point you were trying to make...

I've a number of devices that use 2, 3, and 4 AAs. Which I use in differing amounts. So managing them to that level would be pretty ridiculous IMO. I'd need to label my 2s, 3s and 4s, and never mix them, and have spares for each type. I think most folk wouldn't even consider it, and just throw batteries together. Batteries are cheap enough that getting new ones and recycling the old isn't a major concern.

Ridiculous depends on what you're getting out of it.

If you have these two pairs:

Battery A - brand new - fully charged 1000mAh
Battery B - brand new - fully charged 1000mAh
Battery X - few years old - fully charged *500mAh
Battery Y - few years old - fully charged *500mAh

*EDIT: fixed typo

If you mix A with X and B - Y, you're effectively limiting the stronger battery to the weaker one. In a best-case you may get the average between the two - worse case and depending on the device, you might limit the potential of the pair to the weakest element.
The effect is exaggerated if you have a device that requires 4 batteries and you effectively have a broken one in there. You're limiting the potential of the device and the better batteries severly.

I actually thought this was considered common-sense and something that I used to take care of. Ridiculous? Depends. I remember in the 90ties when battery life of devices were rather bad, so this was an easy way to maximize the potential.

If I do understand your post correctly though, you have absolutely no problem with swapping and mixing batteries. So if I were to open one of your IR remotes, I'm likely to find 4 different coloured batteries, perhaps of different make and capacity? Nice. You won't find that in my household, I can assure you, well unless maybe my wife changed them...

Not really. The place where I put my 360 controller down (because I can put it down right where it is going to be used) is across the room from where I have to put my PS3 controllers for them to charge.

So you're telling me, it's too far to get up and connect your DS4 controller to the PS4 after usage, but you have a battery charger waiting for your 360 controller where you have your couch?

BTW; Staying with the example; if you only have play sessions of 3-4 hours, you can get away with not having to move your ass to connect the controller every time, but every 3rd. I still don't get your point though why plugging in a DS4 controller after usage (or every 2nd/3rd depending on usage) should be more inconvinient than swapping out two AA batteries and charging every now and then...

Also, what happens if you run out of spares? Can you charge a battery for just 15 minutes and use it, similar to how you can connect can connect a DS4 (or any mobile phone or tablet) and get after a mere 15 minutes of charging around 3 times the amount of usage?

lot of what you are saying is completely valid. I mostly take issue with the way you are representing the rechargeable battery model, since you haven't been representing that model accurately or fairly. And using batteries for portable devices really didn't require any restructuring at all. It just worked, as it always has. I just had to buy the charger/batteries.

Have I? I don't think so. My representation might not apply to your situation - then again, your situation doesn't represent mine either. You are neither right nor am I wrong. There are different view points, different usage models, different experiences leading to different habbits. I am not even disagreeing with you - well, not really.

I've been quite transparent in what is in my household. I personally think internal non-user-replacable batteries have lead to an overal improvement in convinience. No more external chargers - just many many many devices that offer a pretty generic interface to charge, either by connecting to a USB charger or a power cable, leading to overall less devices. This, for me, is progress.