Fixed powerpacks versus replaceable AA's in controllers *spawn

[Jwm]

Basically the more you keep li-ion at high voltage (full capacity), or using it in high power draw devices, fast charge it, charging from 0-100% often, expose it to hot condition, it will reduce the battery life. Basically straining the battery (including keeping it fully charged) will reduce the battery life. There is no strict charge cycles like on those Ni-MH battery. If you abuse it, you'll probably get around 500cylces. On DS4, the factor that affects the battery life is greatly reduced because I believe it doesn't run hot and the draw is low. In terms of cycles, it probably can have a lot more than 1000cycles without noticeable drop in capacity.

What li-ion do great is its size and weight and the ability to keep its charge.

Fully agree, that is why their C rating is really important when using them in the RC world. The less you abuse them, the better off they are. You used to run about 10-cycles just to break them in, as a new pack would be pretty crappy if you just went straight to using it. The LiFe batteries I have, well I have really abused them well over 500 cycles now with no issues (15-min charges, hard discharges in many different projects). However, even if you are gentle one day you will have to replace them.

I am a big fan of LiPo, just not in a case where I am not able to easily replace it (iPad/Surface - grrrr). I was once one of those early adopters of LiPo where others were saying that sub-c cells would never be replaced by them. Now you have LiPo packs built into cases to fit where sub-c packs used to go.

AA/AAA is not going anywhere, even if the industry shifted away it would still take a really long time before all those devices were dead.

Ok, now this thread has made me curious. Since I have converted many things to LiPo away from AA..C..and even AAA, I think this weekend I have a project. I wonder what capacity pack I can stuff into an Xbox One controller, do I have any voltage cutoff circuits that are small enough. I do have a few 5000mah cells that I could just tape on.

Edit: Everything I have in a size that would work would only give me 600mAh or less - so it is pointless to move away from 2500mAh Eneloop's. Weekend project canceled!

 

[Rangers]

Worst case scenario for AA batteries is you just cannibalize something you aren't using. There is no scenario where you can't play. Pull the batteries from your mouse (or one of a dozen other AA powered devices) while you game on your console.

I know I've probably written this 1k times by now but I just dont get the hassle of rechargeable batteries for controllers at all. Eneloop sounds way superior, but still.

When you can just get 100 pack of AA for 20 bucks, why ever bother? Use them, throw them away and grab two more. 100 pack will last years. You cannot beat the convenience and NO rechargeable system can ever be as convenient.

I use rechargeable (obviously) for smartphone, tablet, and speaker, so it's not like I'm not used to that I suppose.

Sony's system if they included a very long charge cable (even 10ft Xbox play n charge cord actually doesn't reach to my couch, which is a prob), and if they got more like Xbox's battery life instead of 8 hours, might be the best really. But I'd still be worried about the fact once the battery is dead you need a whole new controller. And I still dont know if could beat my bulk AA system for convenience (you still have to deal with charging and a cable at some point). But it is in theory cheaper (whether 20 bucks every multiple years is enough to bother is another matter), especially for average dummies who probably buy expensive 8 packs of energizers at wal mart.

 

[Strange]

Just to make a point, I did a test.

Portable battery chargers that you use to charge your other accessories do indeed work on the DS4.
Portable battery chargers are also becoming a common commodity (I just use the one that goes with my PSVita to do charge my iphone when I'm traveling too)

So what you could do is to just hook your DS4 to that and you won't have to worry about a dead controller battery.

Use your imagination.

The thing that I don't like about AA batteries is that they're actually quite heavy for their size. if it's for a calculator, remote it's not such a big issue, but for a controller that I may have to wave around (note the ps eye integration), being light does have its merits.

 

[function]

This thread is the bees knees.

Please continue on.

I love this thread. It's my favourite thread this year.

The thing that I don't like about AA batteries is that they're actually quite heavy for their size. if it's for a calculator, remote it's not such a big issue, but for a controller that I may have to wave around (note the ps eye integration), being light does have its merits.

Son, if you think AA batteries are heavy then you need to start lifting.

 

[AzBat]

Son, if you think AA batteries are heavy then you need to start lifting.

LOL, just get the expensive Energizer Lithium AA batteries. Those are really light & last forever.

BTW, anybody know if Eneloops work with the 360 or XB1 Play & Charge cables?

Tommy McClain

 

[Jedi2016]

Worst case scenario for AA batteries is you just cannibalize something you aren't using. There is no scenario where you can't play. Pull the batteries from your mouse (or one of a dozen other AA powered devices) while you game on your console.

FWIW, I've never come across a scenario where I "can't play" using DS3/4 built-in batteries. There's this wire you can plug into the controller and keep playing, amazing technology. Downtime is actually less than hunting around for a pair of batteries. And cheaper in the long run, to boot. That wire is only a couple bucks, less than a two-pack of AA batteries, and it lasts forever.

Replaceable batteries are a dying breed. The only things in my entire house that use them are the remotes for the TV and receiver. Give it a few more years and even those will go away.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Downtime is actually less than hunting around for a pair of batteries.

Only because you aren't used to managing batteries. The people here who use batteries extensively won't spend any time hunting around for a pair of batteries as they know exactly (which drawer) where they are. And they'd be more likely to have to hunt around for a long enough USB cable if it came to that.

Whatever we are personally used to tends to be the most efficient method for us.

And cheaper in the long run, to boot. That wire is only a couple bucks, less than a two-pack of AA batteries, and it lasts forever.

Yes, but then you don't have a wireless controller. This whole discussion is predicated on wanting wireless controller functionality. Otherwise there's no need for any batteries and the controllers can be permanently wired (with 10+ foot long cables for some people).

Replaceable batteries are a dying breed. The only things in my entire house that use them are the remotes for the TV and receiver. Give it a few more years and even those will go away.

I disagree. We still have frickin' 9v PP3's, which are utterly atrocious and archaic. But an external preamp of mine uses one of these. AAs and AAAs serve useful purposes in many devices and they aren't going anywhere - I have remotes, field recorder, lights, and torches that use them. My need for AAs has increased over the past ten years. If these devices I have used in-built powerpacks, I'd have to chuck them away after a period, either because they've degraded from recharging, or not using. That'd be very wasteful, and expensive in some cases.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Ya there are no less than 20 devices in my home that use AA batteries. Built in batteries with a cord charger might be an ok solution for a controller, but for a flashlight (torch)? Ya I'll just plug it into... oh wait I needed the flashlight because the power is out...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Very naff, cheesy marketing video from my junkmail

Of significance at 9:20 (yes, I watched that much before posting, but it's too boring and I haven't watched to the end) are the chargers that work off USB - you can use all those mobile phone chargers to charge your AAs. Everyone's a winner!

 

[Jwm]

LOL, just get the expensive Energizer Lithium AA batteries. Those are really light & last forever.

BTW, anybody know if Eneloops work with the 360 or XB1 Play & Charge cables?

Tommy McClain

They are insanely lightweight, but Eneloops really are not heavy either. The Play&Charge uses a special case, without that the cable is useless. It could be they have a temp monitor lead. I do think you can hack the kit open and replace the cells with Eneloops, as they just use builder specials (erm cheap) cells.

Edit: I charge my packs with one of these -

I can charge my controller, LiPo, LiFe, NiCd, NiMh, etc. LOL

Shifty 12:56 is where it is all at!

 

[Strange]

Son, if you think AA batteries are heavy then you need to start lifting.

I guess some people missed all the conversation about controller weight and are resorting to personal attacks when they see something they don't like.

AA batteries don't only come with their weight, they also come with the design that require housing and wiring, making them bulky believe it or not. In a device that you expect to handle several hours in one sitting, any weight savings is welcome.

 

[AlphaWolf]

I wouldn't say lighter is always better. I like there being some weight. However I doubt I'd give a damn about the difference the battery weight gives.

 

[function]

I guess some people missed all the conversation about controller weight and are resorting to personal attacks when they see something they don't like.

AA batteries don't only come with their weight, they also come with the design that require housing and wiring, making them bulky believe it or not. In a device that you expect to handle several hours in one sitting, any weight savings is welcome.

I made the best post ever on the battery type vs form factor, so I didn't miss anything.

I just though it was funny that you found the additional weight of AAs troublesome.

Also: The built in battery doesn't weigh "nothing"; lower capacity and lighter AA's are available for weaker users; the weight of the plastic housing and "wires" for the batteries is basically noise; built in batteries will also need conductors; connecting a USB cable will add weight to a pad (although insignificantly so IMO).

Kinect would be the ideal controller for people who find the weight of pads difficult to manage for extended periods. Battery weight is only a fraction of total controller weight.

As an example, Iphone 5 weights about 110grams, an AA battery is actually 15~25 grams, which is like 1/5 the weight of a phone. Two of them makes them at least 1/3 or so, all the way up to 1/2. Does weight matter? yes.

Those are some heavy weights that you're throwing around.

You know that the battery in the iphone adds to its weight? It's not "free" just because it's not an AA.

 

[-tkf-]

I made the best post ever on the battery type vs form factor, so I didn't miss anything.

I just though it was funny that you found the additional weight of AAs troublesome.

Also: The built in battery doesn't weigh "nothing"; lower capacity and lighter AA's are available for weaker users; the weight of the plastic housing and "wires" for the batteries is basically noise; built in batteries will also need conductors; connecting a USB cable will add weight to a pad (although insignificantly so IMO).

Kinect would be the ideal controller for people who find the weight of pads difficult to manage for extended periods. Battery weight is only a fraction of total controller weight.

Those are some heavy weights that you're throwing around.

You know that the battery in the iphone adds to its weight? It's not "free" just because it's not an AA.

For a thread that has run this long without getting crapped on i guess it should be expected. It's has nothing todo with "power" or "manly hands". It's all about what is comfortable. You could lift 50 lbs dumbbells and still consider a few grams annoying. Some of these controllers will be used for several hours, by small kids to giants with manly hands. How the hell you could work it's about "being strong" into this is baffling.

 

[AzBat]

They are insanely lightweight, but Eneloops really are not heavy either. The Play&Charge uses a special case, without that the cable is useless. It could be they have a temp monitor lead. I do think you can hack the kit open and replace the cells with Eneloops, as they just use builder specials (erm cheap) cells.

On the 360 the rechargeable Play & Charge pack & the AA pack look the same. So you could still put Eneloops in the AA pack & theoretically still use the Play & Charge cable or Energizer Charging Station. You couldn't use the official Quick Charge Kit where you have to take the battery packs off the controllers to charge though. I can't seem to find my Play & Charge Cable anymore. I always use the charging station instead. So I was hoping it could be used to charge the Eneloops. Bad thing is I can't seem to find my AA packs either. LOL Guess that's one good thing about the XB1: no AA pack anymore.

Tommy McClain

 

[AlphaWolf]

For a thread that has run this long without getting crapped on i guess it should be expected. It's has nothing todo with "power" or "manly hands". It's all about what is comfortable. You could lift 50 lbs dumbbells and still consider a few grams annoying. Some of these controllers will be used for several hours, by small kids to giants with manly hands. How the hell you could work it's about "being strong" into this is baffling.

Please share with me how many grams the built in battery in the ps4 is saving over replaceable. My AA rechargeables (NiMh) weigh 48grams (for 2), the play and charge battery is 40.

i expect the heaviest option available is a 10ft USB cable (even just the weight at the controller)

 

[mrcorbo]

If you've been mixing and interchanging batteries for years (as you're implying), my guess would be that there are quite a few batteries "in the mix" that are close to the end of their cycle mixed with new(er) ones.

If you now use a lot of 4 batteries with one in that lot that's near the end of it's life cycle for e.g my Remote and it fails after one hour of usage after you swapped them - how do you deduct which one was the faulty one? Or do you discard them all (with possibly 3 good ones)?

If you want to avoid this, organizing and not mixing batteries becomes essential. Depends how you use them. If you want to rely on your batteries like I do, it's rather essential I would think.



Sorry, I was expecting you were aware that the topic was about powerpacks versus replacable AA batteries, and not about comparing a controller that lasts 20 hours with user replacable vs a controller with non-user-replacable that lasts 10. The fact that the Xbox controller lasts longer isn't solely due to replacable batteries holding a higher charge, but perhaps due to the DS4 using a higher draw in combination with a very small battery. In that sense, my posts have been referencing the Xbox controller and the DS4 as a hypothetical DS4 with user replacable batteries and one that hasn't. It's the reason why I have pretty much ignored the differing life-span of the respective controllers, because they are dependant on further factors.

All my points so far were focusing on the concept of needing an external charger for your device(s) or supplying a generic interface to charge them. I thought this was clear.




I just checked and I can't find it (not in the context I was asking the question). Anyway, I replied on this bit to Joker. You can read my reply there (and the motivation behind my question).




Are you refering to the battery organizing? To be fair, I really thought this was common-sense. I actually didn't think there are people outthere that mix up pairs of batteries besides, perhaps, a large majority of women (no disrespect intended).

In that sense, I was taking my past usage of batteries and applying them to a general usage. Given the scenario further up (first quote), I would still avoid mixing them, therefore, device(s) with user-replacable batteries would yield an even higher level of inconvinience in my case. I'm not going to pretend I would use batteries differently simply to prove a point that they can be convinient.

My points are rather ment to give an alternative view on how some people outthere use rechargable batteries, so the convinience-factor might differ from person to person. I never said that my scenario applies to everyone. Seems to me I have to justify a perfectly explainable way of using rechargable batteries because you use them differently? Why?

I prefer the removable batteries because they are easier. Part of them being easier is that despite not micromanaging them, I have yet to see dramatically reduced battery life from any of them. Perhaps this is actually because my batteries freely travel between high rate of drain and low rate of drain devices, so the charging cycles are being more evenly distributed. Perhaps not.

I have 3 distinct "vintages" of rechargaeables: A set of Energizers I bought initially, a set of Sonys I bought a year or two later and a set of Eneloops I bought most recently. Should I start having problems with them holding a charge, I will simply buy new batteries to replace the Energizers (when I pull them out of devices, I'll put them aside to be recycled instead of putting them back in the charger and put the new batteries in the charger instead).

I freely admit my method fails to get the most efficient usage out of the batteries. This hasn't prevented me from only ever having about 2 minutes of down time on any of my normal controllers (the Rock Band drum kit has a screw cover on it's battery compartment) for their entire service life without ever having to be concerned with their level of charge until they were low/dead. And those periods of downtime have always been infrequent (maybe twice in a heavy use week).

If you have other reasons (O.C.D., a strong sense of aesthetics) for not wanting to operate this way, that's fine. But it's certainly not necessary to put forth any more effort than, "Batteries are dead. Take batteries out of device. Take replacement batteries from charger and put them in device. Put low/dead batteries in charger" to keep your devices going and still not have to make frequent trips to the charger.

 

[-tkf-]

Please share with me how many grams the built in battery in the ps4 is saving over replaceable. My AA rechargeables (NiMh) weigh 48grams (for 2), the play and charge battery is 40.

i expect the heaviest option available is a 10ft USB cable (even just the weight at the controller)

Why? I don't care. I care about my crappy xbox and wii solution and consider my Sony controllers to be way better.

When my friends ask me about the 360 I make a point of telling telling them about they have to buy batteries to use the controller. I am yet to hear anyone consider it a smart solution. Besides here of course..

 

[AzBat]

Why? I don't care. I care about my crappy xbox and wii solution and consider my Sony controllers to be way better.

When my friends ask me about the 360 I make a point of telling telling them about they have to buy batteries to use the controller. I am yet to hear anyone consider it a smart solution. Besides here of course..

You probably conveniently leave out the part where PS3/4 batteries are not exactly user replaceable. If the batteries go bad you either replace the whole controller, have to be wired all the time or take apart the controller to replace the battery with an aftermarket battery. Each solution has pros & cons. Yes, the Xbox solution is not cheap, but it's the most versatile solution. I will also agree I would have liked MS to include a rechargeable battery in the XB1 box, but oh well at least they gave me some options.

Tommy McClain

 

[AlphaWolf]

Why? I don't care. I care about my crappy xbox and wii solution and consider my Sony controllers to be way better.

When my friends ask me about the 360 I make a point of telling telling them about they have to buy batteries to use the controller. I am yet to hear anyone consider it a smart solution. Besides here of course..

So weight is a big deal but you don't know or care if your favored solution is lighter...