First console to let me install all games to HDD will win me over

[AlphaWolf]

Your first sentence makes me laugh pretty damn hard. That applies to every damn thing, what makes this so special and so super horrible? Nothing. Make the system standard, test it throughly, you'd rarely run into major issues.

It makes you laugh because you're not thinking it through. They can test a disk before they sell it, they can test the system before they ship, what they can't do is see what happens when 1 million people all try to test it at the same time? If every day 1 purchase of a AAA game is going to be like day one of MMO's. I'll pass.

Hardware that would cost very little to be honest, or the operator system would be entirely computer. Microsoft has certainly already got that fixed, as to many major companies. Hell, I had to have my password recent by phone for my AT&T DSL and the process was done entirely through a computer controlled "operator." Process was extremely smooth as well, best tech support ever! A number of software vendors already have such setups anyway, ever register Photoshop, there is a call option.

Sure it costs very little, maybe a couple dollars, but it doesn't offer a whole lot either and frankly I don't particularly like the idea of paying a couple of dollars for something which offers me no benefit. You also have to support that additional hardware.

Yes, MS has the basic infrastructure setup, but I doubt they have the infrastructure to handle potentially a million calls per day. Are you going to make these people wait on hold for 2 hours or a week? How many of those people would just return the damn game?

It could work, but its not just something that just happens by adding 2 bucks worth of hardware to every console.

 

[V3]

The ELUA can say all sorts of things, but they aren't inherently legally binding.

That's news to me. EULA is legally binding AFAIK. Your local law may have laws that overide some part of EULA. If your local law allows you to modify the main executable to remove the security protection put in place, it's legal in your place.

Anyway what we want is from publisher to not use these protection, you know like that starfarce thingy and just make the end user life more convenient. Technology should make our lifes easier, not harder.

 

[Skrying]

Do you really think these one time calls are going to add an extremely large amount of calls to the extremely large amount Microsoft already receives? It's one time. Half of the games sold will be online, the other half a phone call to a automated system. It wouldn't be as large as you're suggesting. How many games move 1 million units on day one? How many even do half of that? A great month for many games in 250,000 units in a month give or take. You're likely to only a few of those a month, with some sudden jumps here and there, the majority of the time though its a none issue and even at peaks its not that bad.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Do you really think these one time calls are going to add an extremely large amount of calls to the extremely large amount Microsoft already receives? It's one time. Half of the games sold will be online, the other half a phone call to a automated system. It wouldn't be as large as you're suggesting. How many games move 1 million units on day one? How many even do half of that? A great month for many games in 250,000 units in a month give or take. You're likely to only a few of those a month, with some sudden jumps here and there, the majority of the time though its a none issue and even at peaks its not that bad.

So you just let people bitch and complain when the big name titles ship? Or do you build up an infrastructure capable of handling worst case scenarios? It wouldn't always be just one game being authenticated on a given day. How many people played a game for the first time on christmas day?

There's less backlash from offering no service than there is from offering a service that doesn't work, when the customer most wants it to work.

Again not saying it couldn't work, but its far from a foolproof solution.

 

[Skrying]

So you just let people bitch and complain when the big name titles ship? Or do you build up an infrastructure capable of handling worst case scenarios? It wouldn't always be just one game being authenticated on a given day. How many people played a game for the first time on christmas day?

There's less backlash from offering no service than there is from offering a service that doesn't work, when the customer most wants it to work.

Again not saying it couldn't work, but its far from a foolproof solution.

People already do that for many other things, when was the last time you used tech support? Again, around half of those games would be online activated. The rest throughout the day would be fine most likely, a short wait period or maybe even have a preactivation service that ties into the main system, that way gift givers could do yet another thing for the receivers. I'm not claiming its fool proof, I'm simply saying it would be a great service and wouldn't be that large of a hassle.

 

[valioso]

People already do that for many other things, when was the last time you used tech support? Again, around half of those games would be online activated. The rest throughout the day would be fine most likely, a short wait period or maybe even have a preactivation service that ties into the main system, that way gift givers could do yet another thing for the receivers. I'm not claiming its fool proof, I'm simply saying it would be a great service and wouldn't be that large of a hassle.

You have too much faith in the average customer to know what the hell they are doing and what "Activating" means and what they need to do in order for things to work, and why can't they take it to their friend's house and it just work. Then not everyone is online either, or runs a phone cable to their system.
Frankly is a horrible idea.

 

[Skrying]

You have too much faith in the average customer to know what the hell they are doing and what "Activating" means and what they need to do in order for things to work, and why can't they take it to their friend's house and it just work. Then not everyone is online either, or runs a phone cable to their system.
Frankly is a horrible idea.

Wow. Please read the thread before posting. Let's see. 50% online, the other 50% have a phone they can call with. I'm pretty damn certain most people know what activation is, they've been doing it with Windows and other programs and devices for years. It's like you think this will just POP OUT and people will be "Huh what is this new technological device!?"

 

[PARANOiA]

Actually, most systems (read: not DIY system builders) have Windows pre-installed. When a lot of people think "I want Vista" they'll buy the latest system from Dell or their local computer store with the whole thing built from scratch. I can't remember the last time I heard of an average computer user try and install a new OS alone.

 

[Skrying]

Actually, most systems (read: not DIY system builders) have Windows pre-installed. When a lot of people think "I want Vista" they'll buy the latest system from Dell or their local computer store with the whole thing built from scratch. I can't remember the last time I heard of an average computer user try and install a new OS alone.

You must still often register it yourself. There are a few preloads that don't have you do this but it's very common. I work in a field where I have hands on experience with many many OEM systems.

 

[PARANOiA]

Really? I helped three people pick systems and installed a few bits and pieces on them over the break... two from Dell, one from ye olde local computer store. All had Vista pre-installed with no activation required.

Maybe it's regional *shrug*

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

Two things.. first, on the EULA discussion, most of them aren't actually legally binding contracts because they aren't made available until after the purchase has already been made and most retailers don't allow you to make returns one the product has been opened. (This is US information only, EU and others have even more consumer friendly laws.)

The second, which actually is sort of tied into the EULA discussion is what happened with HL2 when it launched and STEAM was required for use, but not clearly specified on the outside of the box.

Retailers wouldn't accept returns on the games because they had already been opened, and a large percentage of the consumers couldn't use the game because of the online activation requirement.

In the end, if memory serves me correctly, refunds had to be given to the consumers and HL2 had to change their packaging to make it clear on the OUTSIDE that Steam/online was a requirement for use.

But, as I've said earlier and others have pointed out, this is something that simply increases costs to developers and/or publishers and offers them very little benefit in terms of a very small percentage of the user base that actually cares for this 'feature' that every user will have to pay for.

I actually think all this 'online' registration or 'telephone' registration bit is far too cost prohibitive in terms of servers, operators, automated systems, etc.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just instead DVD-RWs in the consoles and upon install, have the program actually tell the optical disc that it has been installed?

You would then need a second step, a key generator, so upon uninstall you are given a key that you would have to write down and keep in order to install the game a second time.

If that happened, then they could be assured that two people aren't playing off a single purchase.

And if you uninstall the game and lose your key, then there could be a provision where you have to MAIL your disc in and they 'recover' the key code for you and send you back the disc and the key.

That removes the need for online, for operators, or phone lines or anything, as the number of people who would send in their disc for key recovery would be minimal.

I think that scenario actually solves all the issues and does so with currently available technology and without much added cost to the manufacturer/developer/publisher.

The question then becomes is the hardship of having to send a game back (and eat the shipping costs, obviously) to recover a lost key due to uninstall worth the benefit of not having to get up to swap discs when you want to change games?

That goes back to the original point, that the added costs have to be carried by somebody and are the benefits worth it?

 

[Skrying]

The console just can't "tell" the disc it's been installed, something would have to be written to the disc and that would require a special disc, MUCH more cost prohibitive than the registration system.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

The console just can't "tell" the disc it's been installed, something would have to be written to the disc and that would require a special disc, MUCH more cost prohibitive than the registration system.

How so? It would require a DVD-RW drive and DVD-RW discs.

That's more cost effective than your suggestion that the console manufacturers have either banks of operators sitting at the ready to answer telephone calls, or install a specialized automated system to do a similar task?

Surely my solution to the problem isn't something that can be put in place this generation. The consoles don't come with writable drives and the games aren't imaged on re-writable discs.

But I think the idea that this is something that would take place during this generation is outside the realm of reality anyway.

Additionally, as both MS and Sony fight for the living room and the DVR market, I think writable optical drives are something that will probably be included in the next generation, anyway.

At that point, it's only a matter of allowing the game discs to be writable.

I'm just going on PC costs here, but DVD burners aren't significantly more expensive than DVD players and DVD-RW discs aren't significantly more expensive than DVD-Rs.

I'd say the additional costs of those two 'upgrades' (one to the console, one to the type of game disc) are far less cost prohibitive than creating and maintaining call centers.

 

[PARANOiA]

They would still need call centres... what if your console died? Would you have to discard your game? A call centre would need to be able to provide you with a telephone "deactivation" code.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

They would still need call centres... what if your console died? Would you have to discard your game? A call centre would need to be able to provide you with a telephone "deactivation" code.

Hmm... Why?

Of course all consoles need some sort of tech support call center to handle the status of the console.

Are you saying it'd be cheaper to just expand the current tech support console-related call center to handle every single game activation than it would be to implement the hardware changes I suggested?

Also, as I said, there would be no 'deactivation code'. That would be provided for you from information already written on the optical drive.

It would only be if you LOST the code that you were given upon uninstall that you would need support, and as I said, that would be removed from the call center's responsibility by forcing that cost on the user (for not logging the deactivation code) through shipping costs.

To clarify my idea:

You buy a game and play it off the disc.. no changes at all.

You buy a game and install it on the HDD so you don't need the disc anymore, at that point the disc is writable and the drive is a burner and during the install process it burns into a lock into a certain disc sector that tells it that it has been installed.

You take the disc to another console and try to play it, it knows it has been installed and asks you for an uninstall key.

The disc is required for the uninstall process because as it removes the game from your HDD it also reads the disc and then provides you with an uninstall key.

If you want to uninstall the game from one HDD and then play the game on another system, or give it to somebody else, or sell it, or whatever, you not only need to provide the disc itself but also the uninstall key.

Once you 'unlock' the game with the uninstall key, the game is free to be played or installed again on any system.

If you give the game to somebody who doesn't install it, they only need the uninstall key the first time, the burner then wipes out the 'lock' and allows the game to be played.

If you give the game to somebody and they do install it, the process is the same and starts over again.

This would only require burners instead of readers in the consoles and it would require the physical medium to allow those changes to be made.

Now, I think the flaw in all of this is that serious pirates would surely be able to circumvent the process. But that's going to be what? .1% of the population?

The rest of the install base could install all their games, play them without any changing of discs, and if they did uninstall a game to make more room for other games, they'd have to write down the key and put it in the case with the game that they stored away until they wanted to play it again.

 

[AlphaWolf]

I'd think console manufacturers and the developers would be opposed to the presence of RW drives on the systems.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

I'd think console manufacturers and the developers would be opposed to the presence of RW drives on the systems.

Oh, and they'd be opposed even moreso to the idea of RW game discs.

The piracy flood gates just fly open.

But working with what was asked originally, and working with the current tech restrictions, that's the best I could come up with.

And as I said, I still don't think the benefit to the consumer outweighs the hassle to the consumer when they uninstall the game and lose the install key which will inevitably happen.

 

[Skrying]

I don't think you really understand the issues with having media that is easily printed that also has a writable portion. Hell, I think that technology was just shown not but a year or two ago. It would never work, it would vastly more expensive.

Automated telephone systems are not "specialized" anymore, they're rather common. Expand the system a bit and once again following todays consoles data over or around HALF of the games would activate using a net connection anyway.

 

[jb]

Agreed that it would be nice to have but we will never see it as it just asked to be pirated in this format