External vs internal PSUs *spawn

[MrFox]

I'm not actually sure what the size of something I never move matters. But I guess that's personal preference. I don't own a ps4 right now but my friend does . The ps4 is noiser than the xbox one but at the same time they are both so quite it doesn't matter.


My one replaced a bluray player and an xbox 360. So its actually freed up room !

It isn't. While it's a number of limitation that you don't care about, the existence of those limitations and the profit/loss from the all single points of failures isn't a question of preference. You can't "prefer" and unwieldy external power supply, you can't "prefer" a higher failure rate. You can't "prefer" a huge console that has a vertical hot air outlet preventing stacking. You sure can decide it doesn't affect you, or that you were lucky your 360 didn't fail, but we're getting very far from business decisions.

Reliability/Unreliability have costs associated. When designing a product, each part has an estimated failure rate. Some of them are designed by the console manufacturer, some are using untested modern processes, so they are high-risk. The failure rate is very difficult to estimate and can be missed because of a lack of competence in the field (see the 360 RROD, scratched discs, power supply failure). Sometimes you make more money despite the lower reliability, sometimes you don't. Having a product released on-time can be more profitable than the cost of warranty replacement and reputation loss. Business is like poker, you have to play the odds. The potential profit must be above than the estimated risk factor.

to quote Fight Club:

A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Why can't someone prefer external power supply bricks? Why can't someone prefer vertical venting? Also, since when are external bricks suddenly a question of reliability?

 

[Dave Baumann]

Wow.

 

[MrFox]

Why can't someone prefer external power supply bricks? Why can't someone prefer vertical venting? Also, since when are external bricks suddenly a question of reliability?

Forget the top vent, that was my brain fart.

Comparing the design of a console with an external PS that is larger than one with an internal PS. A cable instead of a brick. How's the brick a preference? It's just "I care" or "I don't care". If it made the console slimmer that would be a completely different question.

External brick including a very small fan is less reliable than an internal power supply without fan. Just google the 360 issues with it's power supply.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Forget the top vent, that was my brain fart.

Comparing the design of a console with an external PS that is larger than one with an internal PS. A cable instead of a brick. How's the brick a preference? It's just "I care" or "I don't care".

External brick including a very small fan is less reliable than an internal power supply without fan. Just google the 360 issues with it's power supply.

That will tell you the reliability of the 360 brick, of which there were many versions. How exactly am I supposed to compare that to the reliability of bricks for other devices, for which there are many?

Having the brick external removes some of the heat from the area away from your device. It also makes it easier to replace. That's two advantages I could see where someone might prefer it. I actually don't care at all, I just don't know how you can say someone absolutely cannot prefer something over something else. It's not even worth arguing about.

 

[MrFox]

It's not even worth arguing about.

Agreed 100%

But you're wrong about the internal vs external reliability when a small fan and a high current connector is involved, also heat is basically removed for free on the PS4. I would like to write a long explanation why, but It would be a technical discussion instead of a business one so I'll drop it.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Thermal density in increased in an all-in-one solution, especially one that is in a smaller case. Reliability of that solution is likely to be even more in question when it is stacked in with other components.

It is also perfectly reasonable to prefer and system that is lower noise.

 

[MrFox]

Thermal density in increased in an all-in-one solution, especially one that is in a smaller case. Reliability of that solution is likely to be even more in question when it is stacked in with other components.

It is also perfectly reasonable to prefer and system that is lower noise.

Understood... but...

PS4 has laminar airflow above and below the top and bottom of the case with cold air entry, all air paths are temperature controlled, not just the die temperature, so stacking wouldn't affect reliability as much as it would spin up the fan a little when stacked. So far the fan doesn't spin up noticeably faster with a PS3 on top of it even after 9 hours of gaming.

I really need to add a breathalyser to unlock my computer...

 

[dobwal]

Agreed 100%

But you're wrong about the internal vs external reliability when a small fan and a high current connector is involved, also heat is basically removed for free on the PS4. I would like to write a long explanation why, but It would be a technical discussion instead of a business one so I'll drop it.

Given MS conservative design of the main unit, what to say that the powerbrick doesn't enjoy the same design outlook. Maybe the fan's MTBF is much higher than usual because its churning at very low speeds.

The power brick was a source of failures for the 360, so I seriously doubt that didn't influence the XB1's brick design.

 

[MrFox]

Given MS conservative design of the main unit, what to say that the powerbrick doesn't enjoy the same design outlook. Maybe the fan's MTBF is much higher than usual because its churning at very low speeds.

The power brick was a source of failures for the 360, so I seriously doubt that didn't influence the XB1's brick design.

That's possible, small fan, low cost, reliability... pick two.

Looking at Kinect-2, it's a beautiful hardware (if somewhat big) and the fan is a high quality ball bearing Nidec at very very low speed, that one should be very reliable for a long time. There are zero reports of noisy Kinect-2 fan, and it makes a lot of sense.

OTOH there are many reports of noisy fans on XB1 power supplies. There seems to be some variation, at least.
http://forums.xbox.com/xbox_forums/xbox_support/xbox_one_support/f/4269/t/1629922.aspx

 

[milk]

N64.

 

[eastmen]

It isn't. While it's a number of limitation that you don't care about, the existence of those limitations and the profit/loss from the all single points of failures isn't a question of preference. You can't "prefer" and unwieldy external power supply, you can't "prefer" a higher failure rate. You can't "prefer" a huge console that has a vertical hot air outlet preventing stacking. You sure can decide it doesn't affect you, or that you were lucky your 360 didn't fail, but we're getting very far from business decisions.

Reliability/Unreliability have costs associated. When designing a product, each part has an estimated failure rate. Some of them are designed by the console manufacturer, some are using untested modern processes, so they are high-risk. The failure rate is very difficult to estimate and can be missed because of a lack of competence in the field (see the 360 RROD, scratched discs, power supply failure). Sometimes you make more money despite the lower reliability, sometimes you don't. Having a product released on-time can be more profitable than the cost of warranty replacement and reputation loss. Business is like poker, you have to play the odds. The potential profit must be above than the estimated risk factor.

to quote Fight Club:

Listen , I have 6 xbox 360s in my house , my gf has 4 xbox 360s. These range from the original 20 gig premium down to the newest redesign (we use media center ) I had a single ps3. My ps3 is the system that died (bluray drive went and then it wouldn't turn on any more)

I have yet to have any problem with any of the external power bricks . I also have never in my life stacked any AV equipment in my life. I buy entertainment units that are functional . My receiver and my xbox one both have their own spot as does the htpc and tuning adapter.

I'm sorry you made poor choices in furniture that don't allow you that luxury that my $40 entertainment stand from Lowes affords me.

 

[zed]

Listen , I have 6 xbox 360s in my house , my gf has 4 xbox 360s.

HaHa yes theyre very renown for their reliability

 

[eastmen]

That's possible, small fan, low cost, reliability... pick two.

Looking at Kinect-2, it's a beautiful hardware (if somewhat big) and the fan is a high quality ball bearing Nidec at very very low speed, that one should be very reliable for a long time. There are zero reports of noisy Kinect-2 fan, and it makes a lot of sense.

OTOH there are many reports of noisy fans on XB1 power supplies. There seems to be some variation, at least.
http://forums.xbox.com/xbox_forums/xbox_support/xbox_one_support/f/4269/t/1629922.aspx

There are also reports of bad ps4 sticks , ps4's that keep ejecting discs and other problems.

Are you sure it can't just come down to the fact that when you sell 5m or 7m of something there are bound to be a few with problems ?

HaHa yes theyre very renown for their reliability

In my house we have a 20 gig premium , 60 gig and then a 250 gig slim and the rest are 4 gig slims. My gf has all slim and newer.

Never had a problem. I might have gotten lucky with the launch day unit and by all accounts I did , but doesn't change my experience at all .

 

[Scott_Arm]

360 reliability improved massively once the slim came out. It was a very good kit. I don't remember all of the different revisions of the launch design, but those improved as well, but even the best of them still had unacceptable failure rates. Power bricks don't seem to be related to the majority of the failures in any of them. PS3 fats also had poor reliability, though it took longer for them to fail. Don't remember hearing about abnormal power supply failures in them either.

 

[MrFox]

This thread derailment was brought to you by... MrFox. I must be punished.

I only wanted to answer milk's question, why put a small fan on an external power supply. I maintain my answer about cost savings versus reliability, everything else veered off-topic, and personal choices should be discussed.

Kinect-2 is truly an amazing hardware design in comparison to the power supply or the console. They should put the engineers who made it in charge of the next XB1-slim.

 

[-tkf-]

Don't let MR Fox fool you , I still have a 20 gig launch day xbox 360 running on its original power brick. That's what 8 years ?

I hang my power bricks behind my entertainment stand and I like that I can move some of the heat out of the small cubby holes.

Whats more , if the xbox one power bricks die you have to send the brick away to get fixed or a replacement from ms. If the ps4 power supply goes then you need a completely new ps4 which would be a refurbished one from sony.

I much rather just replace a power brick

So what's next, a thread spawn where every Xbox supporter argues that every electric device should have a external PSU?

I hate every little crappy external PSU that I have to live with, it sucks space and just adds to the mess. I can forgive portable equipment but not consoles. And the xb1 is Xbox huge, there should be no reason why they couldn't include a PSU in that box.

grrr

 

[eastmen]

So what's next, a thread spawn where every Xbox supporter argues that every electric device should have a external PSU?

I hate every little crappy external PSU that I have to live with, it sucks space and just adds to the mess. I can forgive portable equipment but not consoles. And the xb1 is Xbox huge, there should be no reason why they couldn't include a PSU in that box.

grrr

I'm not sure what size has to do with anything and I never understood this issue. After you place your console in your entertainment unit how many times have you moved it ?

I moved my xbox 360 roughly 3 times and that's because as I upgraded to newer units (for more drive space) I moved the older units to other tvs in the house.

The size doesn't bother me at all but again perhaps others out there keep their systems in a backpack with a huge battery to run it and a tv as they walk around ?

I just use a portable system like the 3ds for that.

 

[-tkf-]

I'm not sure what size has to do with anything and I never understood this issue. After you place your console in your entertainment unit how many times have you moved it ?

I moved my xbox 360 roughly 3 times and that's because as I upgraded to newer units (for more drive space) I moved the older units to other tvs in the house.

The size doesn't bother me at all but again perhaps others out there keep their systems in a backpack with a huge battery to run it and a tv as they walk around ?

I just use a portable system like the 3ds for that.

Of course size matters, small is good, more space for all the other crap that I have to store next to my consoles. It's not as big a deal for me as the embarrassing external PSU though.

 

[eastmen]

well this will go no where. I have an entertainment unit to keep my av components in. I have a nice piece of furniture for dvds/blurays/games . I don't put crap next to my av components so I don't have the same issues as you.

Each component gets its own cubby. The fact that the power supply can be housed behind the furniture and have its own airflow not affected by the system is a nice perk. The size of the console doesn't really change anything .

Everyone has different prefrences. I'm just not sure how size actually affects anything when its a stationary device.

But we will just argue till the sun comes up so have a great evening and enjoy your ps4 and hopefully the crap next to it doesn't scratch it up on you.