Expected perceptual difference between Scorpio and PS4 Pro *spin-off*

[goonergaz]

It's so hard to score with goal posts constantly being shifted. First it was most games on XBO aren't 1080p. And then the goal posts moved to...most multi-platform games aren't 1080p on XBO. And then the goal posts shifted yet again to...demanding games aren't 1080p on XBO.

Next stop. All games that aren't 1080p on XBO aren't being rendered at 1080p.

Regards,
SB

TBH all games can be 1080p60 - the point is that 'cutting edge' games are always pushing hardware boundaries and therefore the true test of how hardware is 'holding up' (obviously poor engines omited). When talking about the latest games (I think) we're talking about Battlefield/CoD/Deus Ex/insert the big name AAA cross platform title.

Most of these (as pointed out) still show a gap - and whilst most will openly admit that the differences are only noticable side by side they do exist...and a similar gap (or more) expected from Pro to Scorpio - however as pointed out diminishing returns etc and only 4K owners getting full benefit.

 

[davygee]

There is two way to look at this going forward. The first is how much better will Scorpio games look on a 4K screen compared to PS4P; and I think the answer will obviously have to be, that it does look better seeing as Scorpio is more likely able to show games 4k natively. Now we all know that PS4P and Scorpio are being targeted towards 4K users, but this will only make a difference to those console users that own a decent 4K TV.

This leads on to the second point; how much better will Scorpio games look at 1080p compared to PS4P? Well we may only see a very slight difference graphically and possibly a framerate difference for single player portions of games seeing as Scorpio multiplayer games will need to be compatible with Xbox One versions and we are unlikely to see many 60fps One games (that look good anyway).

I am sure we will start seeing PS4P versions of games in 1080p being very close graphically to Very High PC versions with a decent FPS to boot, so reckon there won't be much of a difference between Scorpio & PS4P 1080p titles.

But if you have a good BIG UHD TV then you should see a noticeably better version of game with Scorpio.

 

[milk]

Even on the X1, games don't fit all their buffers into the 32 MB esram. You might have some significant part of your your z-buffer and colour buffer in main memory (like Forza Horizon 2 does iirc).

Sure most games games have some buffers bleeding out of ESRAM, but XBO's memory architecture sure pressured devs to think more carefully about their G-buffer layouts than they would have were both consoles to have abundante fast memory like the ps4.

You might have many tens of MBs of shadow map buffers, (...) If you're using virtual texturing, the memory required for that will scale with resolution too. HDR may require more bits per pixel also. Not all of it will require huge amounts of bandwidth, but it will need storing.

Much like I said current-gen games can still look better at 4k even if not streaming-in higher resolution mip-levels of their textures sooner, I'd say the same applies to shadowmaps. It would be nice if they could become higher-res, but it wouldn't kill any game if they stayed the same resolution.

Even an X1 game could easily be using North of 100 MB MB of buffers, and that could easily scale up by 5x in the push for 4K.

Well, if that sacaled up 5x, it would still fit in ps4's meagre extra 500MB. Going by the speculations that Scorpio actually has 12 GB on its board, I'd assume devs will have between 3 and 4 GB of extra headroom. I agree a 50% memory increase can't buy a significant graphical leap. Yet I still think you can render a current-gen game at native 4k without needing to totally overhaul your lodding/streaming/texturing systems if you can't. Just have textures be a little blurry here and there and call it a day.

Hahahaha, you find him hard to believe?! He's a dev who makes fairly advanced rendering engines. When he posts, he's not posting wild theories. He is stating facts backed up by experience working on these consoles.

Ok, no need for laughter. I know full well who sebbbi is, in fact, I like ask him question whenever he makes himself avaliable as he is one of the most well informed current members on the forums.

 

[AlNom]

Sure most games games have some buffers bleeding out of ESRAM, but XBO's memory architecture sure pressured devs to think more carefully about their G-buffer layouts than they would have were both consoles to have abundante fast memory like the ps4.

It's still a good thing for eeking out performance if they end up compacting their allocations (maybe not quite a headache as to figuring out multi-threaded job system for Cell and benefitting futar anyway, but still. )

I'm sure certain UE4 folks really try really hard to reduce the 8 MRTs down to something more reasonable regardless of platform. Days and days of work Gone by.

 

[function]

Much like I said current-gen games can still look better at 4k even if not streaming-in higher resolution mip-levels of their textures sooner, I'd say the same applies to shadowmaps. It would be nice if they could become higher-res, but it wouldn't kill any game if they stayed the same resolution.

Shadows are actually one area where I think Scorpio's additional performance (and memory) could be put to good use. Some games have awful low res shadows or ones that disappear at spitting distance. Even at 1080 shadows could often do with a kick up the arse! 4K and VR would make this even more important, IMO.

Well, if that sacaled up 5x, it would still fit in ps4's meagre extra 500MB.

That was just a rough figure. Even a simple 1080p 32-bit colour + 24-bit z would add up to 56 MB if you were using 4XMSAA (like Forza Horizon 2). And that's not including shadows (could easily be 40 ~ 80 MB), motion vectors, multiple packed colour (not just a single 8:8:8:8 or 10:10:10:2) buffers ... and keeping hold of old frame data for re-projection / temporal purposes.

Not all of it needs "esram bandwidth" - and certainly not at all stages of its life - but I can imagine a 4K game using a lot more memory than we might normally think.

Going by the speculations that Scorpio actually has 12 GB on its board, I'd assume devs will have between 3 and 4 GB of extra headroom. I agree a 50% memory increase can't buy a significant graphical leap. Yet I still think you can render a current-gen game at native 4k without needing to totally overhaul your lodding/streaming/texturing systems if you can't. Just have textures be a little blurry here and there and call it a day.

A reasonably smart lodding / streaming system should be able to adapt to changes in configuration with minimal workload - i.e. "load high res lods while less than 'x' amount of memory is used, working from the camera out". PC games can often make changes simply by having a config file manipulated.

 

[bgroovy]

Interesting given how gung-ho Microsoft have been about "native 4K". All things being equal (and they rarely are) devs building Scorpio games are going to have to compromise somewhere to hit Microsoft's native 4K promise. Maybe it'll end up like their 720p AA promise for 360.

It's definitely going to be a problem for them trying to render twice as many pixels with only 40% more shading power. PS4 Pro games could end up looking better. All their bluster about native 4K will probably bite them next year.

 

[Rangers]

It's definitely going to be a problem for them trying to render twice as many pixels with only 40% more shading power. PS4 Pro games could end up looking better. All their bluster about native 4K will probably bite them next year.

Something like Forza Horizon 3 looks GREAT on XBO (bow to that 30 FPS, the superior FPS!). They could do that in 4k just multiplying the FLOPS out. 1.3X4=5.2. And you have a little left over, assuming Scorpio doesn't see a few hundred gflops spec bump from clock fiddling or the like, before release which wouldn't stun me.

Plus, all third parties (the vast majority of titles/sales) will do whatever they want. Only MS has said anything about 4k. But the biggest point is that it's highly malleable, and I would hazard a strong guess not even all 1st party Scorpio launch titles will be 4k, let alone later. They may be looking at the PR boost of having a few titles at real 4k, that Pro cant (generally) match, as well. It's something easy for the layman to understand "wait, the new Xbox can do 4k and PS4 Pro cant?" / luddite in gamestop about to make a purchasing decision.

 

[chris1515]

http://timothylottes.blogspot.fr/2016/09/thinking-clearly-about-4k.html?m=1

Rant of Timothy Lottes about PS4 Pro and Scorpio...

 

[Arwin]

He should have included 1600x1800 with checkboard upscaling for the PS4 Pro. (I've suggested this in the comments ... )

 

[Globalisateur]

PS4 Pro to render at 540p and 'CRT' upscale it to 4K?

But scorpio will be able to render 4K natively somehow ?

And the best part:

(with Scorpio)... So as with 360 and XB1, devs will continue to render under native resolution.

OMG. Does he know most graphically intensive XB1 games use dynamic resolution or are upscaled?

@Arwin You shouldn't waste your time with that guy...

 

[iroboto]

Something like Forza Horizon 3 looks GREAT on XBO (bow to that 30 FPS, the superior FPS!). They could do that in 4k just multiplying the FLOPS out. 1.3X4=5.2. And you have a little left over, assuming Scorpio doesn't see a few hundred gflops spec bump from clock fiddling or the like, before release which wouldn't stun me.

That's just multiplying flops out. You still have ROPs and bandwidth both of which XBO is anemic in, and high possibility of no esram to deal with. Lots to change between Scorpio and OG XBO.

There's lots of opportunity for MS make a XBO at 4K with a couple of improvements.

But there's also a better story with dynamic resolution. No need to patch, auto scaling resolution. Which I think was their original plan. We will need to see how MS first party offerings look this year on PC @ 4K.



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[chris1515]

PS4 Pro to render at 540p and 'CRT' upscale it to 4K?

But scorpio will be able to render 4K natively somehow ?

And the best part:


OMG. Does he know most graphically intensive XB1 games use dynamic resolution or are upscaled?

@Arwin You shouldn't waste your time with that guy...

He is the guy who invented TAA and FXAA at Epic. He worked at Nvidia and now work at AMD.

Many Xbox One games are rendered under 1080p? Don't understand the point?

He just said it is better to render game on PS4 Pro and Scorpio under 4k...


If you render Scorpio game at 4k less quality per pixel than PS4...

 

[chris1515]

For the 540p and 'CRT' upscale to 4k it is for PS4 Pro and Scorpio...

 

[milk]

PS4 Pro to render at 540p and 'CRT' upscale it to 4K?

Just to give you a bit of context, he is really into the look of old arcade games in CRT monitors, and the idea of emulating it through shaders is a constant theme on his ramblings. He is into demo-scene and into less conventional rendering. He likes the fact that low resolution gloomy old monitors leave more to the imagination, making it easier for a given game graphics to feel "flawless".
He is also interested in the topic of mantaining a reasonably close reproduction of brightness values of an image after adding in dark scanlines and gaps between "phosphors", thus his welcoming of 4k, as it allows smaller gaps.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Something like Forza Horizon 3 looks GREAT on XBO (bow to that 30 FPS, the superior FPS!). They could do that in 4k just multiplying the FLOPS out. 1.3X4=5.2. And you have a little left over, assuming Scorpio doesn't see a few hundred gflops spec bump from clock fiddling or the like, before release which wouldn't stun me.

Plus, all third parties (the vast majority of titles/sales) will do whatever they want. Only MS has said anything about 4k. But the biggest point is that it's highly malleable, and I would hazard a strong guess not even all 1st party Scorpio launch titles will be 4k, let alone later. They may be looking at the PR boost of having a few titles at real 4k, that Pro cant (generally) match, as well. It's something easy for the layman to understand "wait, the new Xbox can do 4k and PS4 Pro cant?" / luddite in gamestop about to make a purchasing decision.

Everyone that has had a chance to try the XBO version (30 FPS) side by side with the PC version (60 FPS) have said the PC version is far more enjoyable to play due not only to the increased responsiveness but the fluidity of the graphics presentation.

Regards,
SB

 

[iroboto]

He is the guy who invented TAA and FXAA at Epic. He worked at Nvidia and now work at AMD.

Many Xbox One games are rendered under 1080p? Don't understand the point?

He just said it is better to render game on PS4 Pro and Scorpio under 4k...

If you render Scorpio game at 4k less quality per pixel than PS4...

Perhaps that's the game they want to play.
What if it was easier to spot and see the difference of 4K vs 1080p (for casuals), vs players trying to understand what AO is? Its certainly much easier to market to parents.

 

[sebbbi]

I find it hard to believe 4k buffers for current gen games would get to take up to 1GB on the jump to 4k. Aside from the ocasional ps4 exclusive, don't most games try to stay close to 32MB for ESRAM performance?

I remember some PS4 first party developer claiming their 1080p rendertargets were 250 MB in total. 250 MB * 4 = 1 GB.

Most games switch their ESRAM contents a few times per frame. Not all draw calls render to the same buffers. Let's say you switch ESRAM contents 4 times per frame. That is 128 MB total (at 900p). 900p * 5.76 = 4K. Thus render targets would be 738 MB in total at 4K. Not 1 GB, but close enough.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

PS4 Pro to render at 540p and 'CRT' upscale it to 4K?

You really missed the context! It was a personal choice he'd try. I think babcat is a dummy account for Tim Lottes...

 

[milk]

I remember some PS4 first party developer claiming their 1080p rendertargets were 250 MB in total. 250 MB * 4 = 1 GB.

That fall into the "aside from the occasional ps4 exclusive" category I had already mentioned. I think Infamous SS was even more extravagantly fat with their screen buffers.

 

[iroboto]

I remember some PS4 first party developer claiming their 1080p rendertargets were 250 MB in total. 250 MB * 4 = 1 GB.

Most games switch their ESRAM contents a few times per frame. Not all draw calls render to the same buffers. Let's say you switch ESRAM contents 4 times per frame. That is 128 MB total (at 900p). 900p * 5.76 = 4K. Thus render targets would be 738 MB in total at 4K. Not 1 GB, but close enough.

Swapping contents 4x per frame??? Holy moly. Fingers crossed that you can eventually you can get around to having a presentation on the workflow on this one. I'm quite curious how things run well in esram and when things run really poorly.
Even then. LOL wow. I'm surprised anything runs on XBO.

When compared to a single pool, with HUMA, the advantages appear awfully stacked in PS4s favour.

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