Engaget: 360 v2 'Zephyr' - HDMI, 65nm?, 120gb HDD (picture)

[deathindustrial]

Re: HDMI

Someone please correct me if I am wrong but isn't part of the need for HDMI content restrictions in HD streams? My understanding was that (for example) Blue-Ray and HD-DVD content has kill bit support that can be enabled to disallow hi-def signals over non-protected mediums (i.e. component connections). So basically if you don't have HDMI you run the risk of not being able to use your hi-def content down the road.

Cheers

 

[Platon]

Could someone please explain to me why there is this idea that there are HDMI issues with scaling? IIRC, DVD players with upscaling ability can only do it through HDMI... So why would it be an issue

Jesus, lightne up, never claimed that HDMI had problems with upscaling or whatever, it was just a question. As I said in my inital post, component connection has the bandwith for a 720p image however when you use the xbox for upscaling your DVD you will not get a 720p image, it is only possible if you use VGA. I am not so much into the AVS so I don't know what is the problem with upscaling and component, it is not technical as the bandwidth is there so I guess it is about if it is "allowed" or not, so i was wondering if similar issues could be found with HDMI, if not great...

 

[AlNom]

Jesus, lightne up, never claimed that HDMI had problems with upscaling or whatever, it was just a question.

It was just a question... I know you did not claim it, I was just wondering in addition to your question.

Upscaling is indeed possible with component. You can get 1080p output for games. It's just that upscaling DVDs is illegal over component video but not for the VGA cable.

 

[ban25]

Do you know something that everybody else doesn't? Go back and read some of Dave's post you clearly see that he's suggesting that adding HDMI to the current version is not out of the realm of possibility. Would I be surprised no cable was ever released? No, and I wouldn't be devastated either.

Tommy McClain

I didn't read that in his post and I'm not sure he'd even be in a position to know.

 

[AzBat]

I didn't read that in his post and I'm not sure he'd even be in a position to know.

Not this thread. Go back over his posts from the past year or so. I'm sure he's in more of position than most of us here. LOL

Tommy McClain

 

[infinity4]

You have to look at this from a cost / benefit perspective together.

1) HDMI is really only of any use for HD movie playback, and even then, the primary benefit is only for those with 1080p sets, which are relatively few.
2) Xbox only offers HD movie play-back as an optional add-on
3) Even then, full 1080p resolution can still be obtained over component / VGA at this time
4) Some years down the road, there may be issues playing at full resolution if certain flags are turned on.

In other words, adding HDMI to the base console is of little real benefit to the vast majority of Xbox users. It's hard to justify ANY cost. Don't forget that the cost is not just the BOM, but the development / research / testing. Would it be nice to have the option of HDMI out? Sure.

Given the timing and console capabilities, MS made the right choice to exclude HDMI from the console. (At the same time, Sony including HDMI was the right choice for them...given built in HD movie playback). Had MS put a HDMI 1.1 port on the original console...you'd still have the same "complaints" from early adopters getting "screwed" by not having a 1.3 port.

even if its right move it seems too early for it to happen though just like DS => DSL

 

[SsP45]

I don't get why people are feeling ripped off by Microsoft.

If you buy a 2006 model of a car, do you expect the car maker to allow you to trade it in for a 2007 model next year when it comes out with new features? I wish I could do that with my car.

I also don't remember many people getting angry at Nintendo for releasing the DS Lite relatively quickly after the release of the original DS.

 

[infinity4]

bet sony are going to attack microsoft about copying themselves.

well, as well as m$ does, sony do copy others' ideas imo

 

[ban25]

Not this thread. Go back over his posts from the past year or so. I'm sure he's in more of position than most of us here. LOL

Tommy McClain

No thanks. I thought perhaps you had something more conclusive. But if by some chance MS does release an HDMI cable for the existing system, you're free to say 'I told you so.'

 

[archie4oz]

I wouldn't go that far. We've already had this discussion before. Lack of free pins is not the nail in the coffin. I could see them using existing pins but offer a switch on the cable like "TV/HDTV" switch on component cables.

Tommy McClain

That still wouldn't work... There's simply not enough current pins in the existing system for even a single link TMDS transmitter to be hiding inside the box... The switch on the current cable simply switches between the component pins and the composite video pin.

 

[Rangers]

core was designed for market saturation with casuals in late 2007/2008

Ultra- $399
Premium- $349 ($299 later)
Core- $249 ($199 later)

They wont do 3 sku's.

There are so many options, the site mentions "zephyr" may not even have the HDD built in at all. It may be optional.

I'll be interested to see what the heck ms finally does with the sku situation. There's almost no point in speculating anymore. I can see this being the new premium, replacing the old premium, probably. The thing I dont like about it, is a 120GB HDD probably really cuts into their profits. These being 2.5", the 100 GB's retail for $100.

Basically the sheer size and therefore expense of the 120GB HDD might delay a price cut if it's included, and I dont know if that's good..

Maybe the cut the core to $199 and keep the zephyr premium 399? Like I said, it's almost pointless to speculate. Maybe go to one 299 premium sku? (kinda doubt this, ms has always said they'll keep the core).

Or maybe they will go to 3 sku's.

It's sad but the HDD number, because it's a number people can compare, is almost the new hardware arms race. I can see a 120GB 360 giving PS3 a hard time just based on that..Joe Consumer: "120 GB, this one must be better, it's bigger!"

 

[Fu3lFr3nzy]

Wouldnt it make more sense that once they move to 65nm process, they'll discontinue the current X360 model and introduce core and premium X360's with built in HDMI?

The 120GB HDD would most probably be an "optional" purchase, though im not so keen the price will be friendly

 

[quest55720]

Wouldnt it make more sense that once they move to 65nm process, they'll discontinue the current X360 model and introduce core and premium X360's with built in HDMI?

The 120GB HDD would most probably be an "optional" purchase, though im not so keen the price will be friendly

That would be my best guess is how they would do it. Maybe some kind of pack in game for the old systems or rebate to get them off the shelves. I don't need hdmi so I could careless about that but the new harddrive depending on pricing might interest me.

 

[Rangers]

You have to look at this from a cost / benefit perspective together.

1) HDMI is really only of any use for HD movie playback, and even then, the primary benefit is only for those with 1080p sets, which are relatively few.
2) Xbox only offers HD movie play-back as an optional add-on
3) Even then, full 1080p resolution can still be obtained over component / VGA at this time
4) Some years down the road, there may be issues playing at full resolution if certain flags are turned on.

In other words, adding HDMI to the base console is of little real benefit to the vast majority of Xbox users. It's hard to justify ANY cost. Don't forget that the cost is not just the BOM, but the development / research / testing. Would it be nice to have the option of HDMI out? Sure.

Given the timing and console capabilities, MS made the right choice to exclude HDMI from the console. (At the same time, Sony including HDMI was the right choice for them...given built in HD movie playback). Had MS put a HDMI 1.1 port on the original console...you'd still have the same "complaints" from early adopters getting "screwed" by not having a 1.3 port.

Yeah and the funny thing is, I am downloading hi-def Superman Returns from marketplace to play over VGA (in my case but it could be component) right now! So what's the big deal all about Hi-def wont go over analog because of the movie studios? Obviously false..

The more you look at HDMI the more fairly confusing it is. Also I dont have an HDMI input (nor do the majority of TV owners). I do have HDCP capable DVI though, which I'm told accepts HDMI with a converter cable. I dont think HDMI's that necessary. It's mainly to streamline things, ie, it's the single one cable that'll be most used in the future.

Btw, the term you need to remember that microsoft always used with respect to future 360 HDMI was "the platform is flexible enough to support it in the future." "Platform" being a very vague term for the whole universe of 360, meaning it could include a hardware revision to support HDMI.

 

[dobwal]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong but isn't part of the need for HDMI content restrictions in HD streams? My understanding was that (for example) Blue-Ray and HD-DVD content has kill bit support that can be enabled to disallow hi-def signals over non-protected mediums (i.e. component connections). So basically if you don't have HDMI you run the risk of not being able to use your hi-def content down the road.

Cheers

Please correct me if Im wrong, but HDCP doesn't kill your ability to view hd content just the ability to view in "full HD". Its the "Full HD" part that Im fuzzy about. Would that mean restricting 1080p material to only 720p/1080i or just 480p? If the latter turns out to be the case, I don't think it will be a big deal since I think very few us mistake HD-DVD or Bluray on console to be the creme de la creme of HD viewing.

Who knows in five-six years when the ICT is implemented, "Full HD" may be defined as 2160p, which is currently known as Quad Full High Definition (QFHD) with a resolution of 3840 x 2160. Maybe no one will care about 1080p by then.

I have a question. Are HDCP keys present in the PS3?

 

[AlNom]

Please correct me if Im wrong, but HDCP doesn't kill your ability to view hd content just the ability to view in "full HD". Its the "Full HD" part that Im fuzzy about. Would that mean restricting 1080p material to only 720p/1080i or just 480p? If the latter turns out to be the case, I don't think it will be a big deal since I think very few us mistake HD-DVD or Bluray on console to be the creme de la creme of HD viewing.

You'll be restricted to 480p without HDCP if the flags are set.

wiki:

Analog outputs from digital receivers do not require output protections, but the analog output must be limited to a resolution of 480p, which effectively limits sets with analog input to non-HD resolutions.

So for component video, I take it, they restrict to 480p.

 

[SugarCoat]

I don't get why people are feeling ripped off by Microsoft.

If you buy a 2006 model of a car, do you expect the car maker to allow you to trade it in for a 2007 model next year when it comes out with new features? I wish I could do that with my car.

I also don't remember many people getting angry at Nintendo for releasing the DS Lite relatively quickly after the release of the original DS.

But unlike the release and features of a 2007 model of a car, they are going about this in what can be considered a stealthy manor. People want to know whats coming because it may effect their purchases and cause them to delay, Microsoft doesnt want anyone knowing precisely for that reason.

The major slim revision to the PS2 wasnt done until 4 years after the launch by the way for those using it as a comparison. I dont think its a very valid comparison personally but thats me. Multiple revisions were done of the PS2 before then but nothing i would consider major. Personally i'd be more upset about a price cut right after i'd bought the system but thats the chance you take with console hardware. Especially with the Xbox360 which should get its price-cut any day now.

 

[Rangers]

I would rather this redesigned Xbox come out sooner. Screw it microsoft, dont wait for the die shrink!

What I really need is the redesigned Xbox black-colored .65 nm cool and quiet HDMI, core pack, to be $99 so I can buy it and hook it to my HDD.

And then, I'll need the 120 GB HDD too, microsoft has screwed me out of so much $..

Junk I have bought besides my core pac:

HDD-$100
Wireless controller-$50
VGA cable-$40
Mem card-$40
Remote-$30
$260
And I still have no mic (well, my old black Xbox 1 Live mic, but no white one or nifty wireless one) or HDDVD or wi-fi.. and I will almost certainly be needing/wanting to buy the bigger HDD when it arrives..

 

[archie4oz]

You'll be restricted to 480p without HDCP if the flags are set.

So for component video, I take it, they restrict to 480p.

As far as AACS goes if ICT token is enabled you're restricted to 960x540 over component/D-Terminal and 480i over S-Video/Composite. Currently nobody is planning on using it and supposedly there's a gentlemen's agreement not to use it 'till at least 2008 (although Warner is the most likely to use it either before or after).

Beyond that (no pun inteded) there's the DOT token which when enabled prevents any analog output. Currently the exisiting AACS license agreements don't allow for DOT to be enabled although any AACS device (BD players, HD-DVD players) still need to support DOT.

Beyond that, there are analog sunset provisions that by 12/31/2010 new devices will limit all analog output to 480i, and existing devices limit analog output to 480i by 21/31/2011. By 12/31/2013 no analog output would be permitted.

 

[AlNom]

ah... I see. Thank you.