Do you think there will be a mid gen refresh console from Sony and Microsoft?

[iroboto]

I think it's probably close to a certainty that there will be a PS5 Pro next holiday season. If they include a hardware unit to allow for high quality upscaling it may end up being worthwhile. If not, games will still look like crap due to FSR 2 seemingly becoming the go to solution.

Interesting. I’m actually on the “no” side. Global economy seems to be headed south, and the price point seems perhaps too high and they are still limited by the ps5 so it becomes questionable how much additional effort is worth it to optimize the game for 5pro. If there isn’t a sufficient demand at a 699 box, I can seem them aborting it.

 

[techuse]

Interesting. I’m actually on the “no” side. Global economy seems to be headed south, and the price point seems perhaps too high and they are still limited by the ps5 so it becomes questionable how much additional effort is worth it to optimize the game for 5pro. If there isn’t a sufficient demand at a 699 box, I can seem them aborting it.

If it has already been in development for this long it may lose them less money to just release it to mediocre sales. Developers may have also already started work on various games. It's quite complicated I'm sure. I would love to have insider knowledge about things like this.

 

[Rangers]

Gotta be careful with stuff like this. Minor bumps like we saw with XB1 to XB1S are ok, but any larger increases in specs/clocks risk raising the baseline to a level that makes OG owners suffer.

I agree, but it seems like that bridge got crossed a while ago starting with PS45 Pro/Xbox One X last gen, and continuing with Series S this gen. Console incrementalism is here. I'm not sure a variation on it matters that much. What difference does it make if it's "Series X Plus for 599" or just "now better Series X, still 499", really? In fact isn't the latter more consumer value friendly?

Again not going to happen though. I just find it an interesting idea given the rumored 60 CU (disabled down to 56) of the PS5 Pro is very near to the 52 Xbox already has. Also Xbox they might consider re-enabling some CU's to even get >52.

Interesting. I’m actually on the “no” side. Global economy seems to be headed south, and the price point seems perhaps too high and they are still limited by the ps5 so it becomes questionable how much additional effort is worth it to optimize the game for 5pro. If there isn’t a sufficient demand at a 699 box, I can seem them aborting it.

Yeah I agree here too. I dont think a PS5 Pro is a certainty. Just a likelyhood? Even redgamingtech said not so long ago he's not certain it will release. It seems pretty clear it's been planned, but that doesn't mean it will release. Until basically November of 2024 we just wont know (or maybe if we start getting concrete leaks a month or two before like with PS5 Slim). I think theres a good argument given the still high pricing and availability issues until recently, the console makers should just worry about selling what they have. And if you bring up Tom Henderson track record, again I have no doubt there were/are PLANS for a PS5 Pro, the only question is actual release.

Also I'm pretty curious on the RAM as I never see it discussed in the leaks. Maybe it's been discussed in pages back in this thread. But if it's just 16GB that further cements PS5 Pro as not a big leap. If it's 24 or more (cant imagine more really) the issue is more the pricing needs to go up. I've been idly thinking Sony might intend to surprise and fit the PS5 Pro in at 499 (maybe at this time they would be ready to drop the regular PS5 price). But if they have >16GB RAM I think 599+ becomes a given. But I think if you stick with 16GB you risk not differentiating it enough as a leap in consumer minds.

 

[Rangers]

I mean, I'm not suggesting a pro console. Closer to the Xbox One S if anything. We already know, despite the claims, that a mid gen refresh console was indeed in planning for MS as early as 2020 thanks to a bunch of unredacted internal documents MS accidentally posted during their anti-trust trial over Actiblision, it included things like a new case design, new controller, etc. So it was 100% coming, was a bigger change than the PS5 slim, and could/should still be scheduled for next year.

The thing is, they want to save money. Right now AMD can offer to move them to TSMC 4p, move them onto chiplet based PHYs, and maybe even disaggregate CPU/GPU onto chiplets. If you're doing all that anyway, you can move to GDDR7 and save a PHY or two in exchange for faster ram and probably get more cost savings over that time. If you're doing that, you can move from a 320 bit bus to a 256 bit bus, 28gbps ram, and then suddenly the option to overclock the GPU about 25% is right there, almost free.

MS would have to do almost nothing they're not nigh certainly planning to do already. It's not a pro console, it's just, a refresh, one that happens to save them money at the same time.

Yeah that "mid gen refresh" Series X though is just a normal refresh with no change in CPU/GPU specs. Exactly as the PS5 "slim" making the rounds now. Xbox refresh has got goodies like wifi6 built in now (new southbridge, IIRC they were still using leftover Xbox One southbridges on Series!), but the soc isn't any different. It's also "adorably all digital" and upped to 2TB storage, but priced at 499! They're still struggling with BOM. People shouldn't conflate this with a pro it's silly, I see a lot in the media doing this too (bubu Phil said there wouldn't be a mid gen console". Well than call the PS5 Slim a mid gen console too...

An overclock would likely still require significant engineering on MS part and more importantly will on Phil's part. He seems pretty sleepy these days.

In Sony's case such refreshes are also likely a cost cutting measure. The MS refresh to me though looks to follow their recent flawed strategy. It's so small and such high build quality it must be costly. Just as the current Series X.

Xbox Series X Digital-Only Mid-Gen Refresh Has Been Leaked In Court Documents

Documents released as part of the FTC v. Microsoft case reveal an upcoming Xbox Series X mid-gen refresh codenamed Brooklin.

www.gamespot.com

 

[Frenetic Pony]

Yeah that "mid gen refresh" Series X though is just a normal refresh with no change in CPU/GPU specs. Exactly as the PS5 "slim" making the rounds now. Xbox refresh has got goodies like wifi6 built in now (new southbridge, IIRC they were still using leftover Xbox One southbridges on Series!), but the soc isn't any different. It's also "adorably all digital" and upped to 2TB storage, but priced at 499! They're still struggling with BOM. People shouldn't conflate this with a pro it's silly, I see a lot in the media doing this too (bubu Phil said there wouldn't be a mid gen console". Well than call the PS5 Slim a mid gen console too...

An overclock would likely still require significant engineering on MS part and more importantly will on Phil's part. He seems pretty sleepy these days.

In Sony's case such refreshes are also likely a cost cutting measure. The MS refresh to me though looks to follow their recent flawed strategy. It's so small and such high build quality it must be costly. Just as the current Series X.

Xbox Series X Digital-Only Mid-Gen Refresh Has Been Leaked In Court Documents

Documents released as part of the FTC v. Microsoft case reveal an upcoming Xbox Series X mid-gen refresh codenamed Brooklin.

www.gamespot.com

MS has money flowing out their ears in a time when most don't, it could overtake Apple as the world's most valuable company. I doubt a few dollars making software changes, validation, and developer relations for an overclocked SKU, one that the RDNA2 arch on 4P could easily and even cheaply handle given Series X low base clockspeed would give them much sweat, especially as it's a one time charge. Charging $499 for a enough a competitor (roughly an rx6800, good enough for a noticeable performance/setting improvement) to Sony's $599 PS5 Pro would be a potential win for them, especially as BOM would be going down even as they did it.

For MS, which just dropped $69 billion in Activision Blizzard and then fought the FTC tooth and nail to do it, a couple tens of millions for a better mid gen refresh is both a rounding error in the budget and one that could easily generate enough headlines to pay for itself within a year.

 

[Globalisateur]

Yeah that "mid gen refresh" Series X though is just a normal refresh with no change in CPU/GPU specs. Exactly as the PS5 "slim" making the rounds now. Xbox refresh has got goodies like wifi6 built in now (new southbridge, IIRC they were still using leftover Xbox One southbridges on Series!), but the soc isn't any different. It's also "adorably all digital" and upped to 2TB storage, but priced at 499! They're still struggling with BOM. People shouldn't conflate this with a pro it's silly, I see a lot in the media doing this too (bubu Phil said there wouldn't be a mid gen console". Well than call the PS5 Slim a mid gen console too...

An overclock would likely still require significant engineering on MS part and more importantly will on Phil's part. He seems pretty sleepy these days.

In Sony's case such refreshes are also likely a cost cutting measure. The MS refresh to me though looks to follow their recent flawed strategy. It's so small and such high build quality it must be costly. Just as the current Series X.

Xbox Series X Digital-Only Mid-Gen Refresh Has Been Leaked In Court Documents

Documents released as part of the FTC v. Microsoft case reveal an upcoming Xbox Series X mid-gen refresh codenamed Brooklin.

www.gamespot.com

That Series refresh is very likely not happening.

The current word in the streets is that MS are going to to a "next-gen" console early maybe launching in 2025. Similarly to X1X releasing 1 year after Pro.

 

[fehu]

For MS, which just dropped $69 billion in Activision Blizzard and then fought the FTC tooth and nail to do it, a couple tens of millions for a better mid gen refresh is both a rounding error in the budget and one that could easily generate enough headlines to pay for itself within a year.

I think that all depends on the forecasted return.
For one they have a money printer that with better management can increase the output, on the other they have another not selling console.

 

[fehu]

The current word in the streets is that MS are going to to a "next-gen" console early maybe launching in 2025. Similarly to X1X releasing 1 year after Pro.

Oh great idea! so at the end of its cycle, it will receive some not advanced port from switch 3

 

[fehu]

AMD is planning to add 50TOPS of XDNA2 in any cpu starting mid 2024, is this suitable to be used in a Pro console to assist FSR in increasing resolution / frames?

 

[Johnny Awesome]

MS knows they need software not more hardware to push GP sales, which is all they really care about. The ecosystems are essentially locked in. I don't think Phil believes that a $699 super Xbox is going to pull PS gamers away from PS5/PS5 Pro and I think he's right. The S is to get grandma to get the next wave of gamers to get new entrants more onto Xbox than PS ecosystem. This holiday will tell us a lot when the S is essentially half the price of anything else that you can buy.

Btw, outside of Japan the PS is only outselling Xbox by 39 to 23 million. 1.7:1 which is an improvement over the 1.85:1 or so from last generation. MS would likely be happy with 1.5:1 outside of Japan.

IMO the next time they should release a new console is when they can sell a shrunk X in an S-sized box for $299. Then whatever they can release in the X-sized box for $499 should be what the new console is. Rolling generations. Also, while they're at it they should put the S in an M-sized handheld at the same time.

ie. S -> M size, X-> S size, X Pro-> X size ($299, $299, $499). That's likely not possible until 2026 at the earliest.

To flesh it out more: Any game you release for XPro has to work on X. Any game you release for X has to work on S/M. Most games would target X until 2028 or something and work on S, but eventually XPro would be the new target with games only running on it and the X, which would be the size of a current S.

Predictability! Clarity for consumers!

 

[Seanspeed]

As it is November. It’s a good time to make a poll: do you think there will be a Pro model 12 months from today ? Yes or no!

Yes. The main basis for this rumor is very reputable and was completely accurate about the existence of the disc-optional refresh PS5 at the same time. This isn't something you can simply guess without actual inside information.

AMD is planning to add 50TOPS of XDNA2 in any cpu starting mid 2024, is this suitable to be used in a Pro console to assist FSR in increasing resolution / frames?

Meanwhile, the basis for *this* rumor is not at all reputable(MLID). And their reasoning/speculation for such figures was about some demand by Microsoft to have 45-50 TOPS of INT8 for Windows 11 AI functionality. Which to me, sounds kind of ridiculous, especially when this essentially demands either a substantial iGPU, or a discrete GPU. You cant demand that of standard OEM prebuilt PC's that need to be advertised to work fine with Windows 11. I also cant imagine what in the world would require Windows 11 to need that kind of AI performance for general operating system tasks.

I dont buy this rumor at all, and feels very much like one of his standard 'made up' speculation that shows off how uninformed he really is about this stuff.

As for what it takes to do a better FRS model, a 2060 can do DLSS pretty much as well as a 4090 can. It doesn't seem to be a demanding process. The actual training of the model seems to probably be the bigger factor here than simply having the local processing power.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

That Series refresh is very likely not happening.

The current word in the streets is that MS are going to to a "next-gen" console early maybe launching in 2025. Similarly to X1X releasing 1 year after Pro.

A 'next gen' console in 2025 will just be a Pro variant, like the One X was. It was marginally faster than the PS4 Pro, it was just more impressive when compared to the Xbox One. If there were truly something available on the horizon that could provide a large boost enough to warrant a truly next-gen device in 2025, then Sony wouldn't be bothering with the PS5 Pro. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Seanspeed]

A 'next gen' console in 2025 will just be a Pro variant, like the One X was. It was marginally faster than the PS4 Pro, it was just more impressive when compared to the Xbox One. If there were truly something available on the horizon that could provide a large boost enough to warrant a truly next-gen device in 2025, then Sony wouldn't be bothering with the PS5 Pro. It doesn't make any sense.

Yea, there's not a whole lot conceptually different from a mid-gen upgrade console and a next-gen device in terms of how these companies would go about spec'ing the hardware. In both cases, they're essentially just creating the best device they can within the power, cost and form factor limitations that come with consoles.

As of now, I think trying to do an early next gen switch would be a giant, horrible, catastrophic mistake and a straight ticket to making pretty much nobody happy. You're gonna have a very limited increase in specs, nowhere near what people would generally consider a 'next gen' leap. You're gonna upset all the people who bought the Series S/X thinking it'd be a long term investment, especially when they didn't get any actual next gen titles for the first two years of the system. You're gonna annoy all the developers and publishers who have barely gotten their foot in the door with the existing consoles, many of whom haven't even released a proper next gen game on them yet. You're gonna be going up against a similarly spec'd and similarly priced PS5 Pro that gets considerably more dev support cuz it's not asking anybody to make games exclusively for it and it's based on an already highly popular and still consistently growing platform. And then worst of all, once Sony does release a PS6 a few years later, it will absolutely stomp on the new Xbox console in terms of specs.

If Xbox tried to do a 'next gen' machine in 2025, I'd go as far to say that Xbox as a division would be shut down before 2032. It would be worse than Wii U.

 

[Frenetic Pony]

If Xbox tried to do a 'next gen' machine in 2025, I'd go as far to say that Xbox as a division would be shut down before 2032. It would be worse than Wii U.

Hypothetically one could do a mobile Series S in late 2025/early 2026 if tech was really pushed. It'll be interesting to see if that's what Valve's target for the Steam Deck 2 is, but it seems less likely that MS will launch something similar.

Next Gen machines will probably not bother with any huge increase in visual fidelity for that matter. Games are getting good enough that people get to debate how much advancement is really worth in terms of cost now, that's not a good bet then for market success.

I'd say the best bet for next gen is some sort of "do everything" machine. Mobile handheld mode that's backwards compatible with PS5/Series X level games, cameras on the back for AR/Passthrough, detachable side controllers like the Switch for motion tracking Wii/VR like controls, the screen is a 4-5k (1080p-1440p mobile mode) micro-led at 120hz+, you put it in a VR headset for like $199 (maybe with an extra battery pack on the back) and suddenly you've got an all in one VR headset. You can plug it in via USB 4 and get a 30w+ mode and HDMI out at the same time, targeting a PS5 Pro level of performance. Just, a thing that does everything from the Switch to the PS5 Pro to the Apple Vision Pro, all in one $599-799 (depending on if you get the headset) package. That sounds like a real big winner, far more than "the graphics are better, again, see if we go in slow motion and draw red circles around it and zoom in you can see it!"

 

[eastmen]

Hypothetically one could do a mobile Series S in late 2025/early 2026 if tech was really pushed. It'll be interesting to see if that's what Valve's target for the Steam Deck 2 is, but it seems less likely that MS will launch something similar.

Next Gen machines will probably not bother with any huge increase in visual fidelity for that matter. Games are getting good enough that people get to debate how much advancement is really worth in terms of cost now, that's not a good bet then for market success.

I'd say the best bet for next gen is some sort of "do everything" machine. Mobile handheld mode that's backwards compatible with PS5/Series X level games, cameras on the back for AR/Passthrough, detachable side controllers like the Switch for motion tracking Wii/VR like controls, the screen is a 4-5k (1080p-1440p mobile mode) micro-led at 120hz+, you put it in a VR headset for like $199 (maybe with an extra battery pack on the back) and suddenly you've got an all in one VR headset. You can plug it in via USB 4 and get a 30w+ mode and HDMI out at the same time, targeting a PS5 Pro level of performance. Just, a thing that does everything from the Switch to the PS5 Pro to the Apple Vision Pro, all in one $599-799 (depending on if you get the headset) package. That sounds like a real big winner, far more than "the graphics are better, again, see if we go in slow motion and draw red circles around it and zoom in you can see it!"

Microsoft has the money to put out a mobile series s next year pushing 4nm tech , they just wont want to pay for it.

I would imagine at this point that MS will tie their next console to Elder Scrolls. 2026/7 with Zen 6 + AI cores from xillinx. Along with a new generation of AMD's graphics tech which hopefully will have made great strides in ray tracing performance.

I think you'd likely see Elder Scrolls/ Halo / Forza all launching within the first year along with having the exclusive next gen version of COD.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think you'd likely see Elder Scrolls/ Halo / Forza all launching within the first year along with having the exclusive next gen version of COD.

Wouldn't that be a violation of the agreements made for the merger? Spencer promised 100% parity across platforms and no intention to use COD to sell XBoxes. Though I don't know what was enshrined in the various legal agreements versus non-binding Tweets!

 

[techuse]

Wouldn't that be a violation of the agreements made for the merger? Spencer promised 100% parity across platforms and no intention to use COD to sell XBoxes. Though I don't know what was enshrined in the various legal agreements versus non-binding Tweets!

I recall something about a legal agreement to release COD on other platforms up until some specified year. After that I wouldn't be surprised if it went Xbox and PC only. Or at the very least, didn't release on Playstation.

 

[chris1515]

I recall something about a legal agreement to release COD on other platforms up until some specified year. After that I wouldn't be surprised if it went Xbox and PC only. Or at the very least, didn't release on Playstation.

The legal agreement is for the next 10 years. It means the last four years of PS5 and the first 6 years of PS6. COD will be exclusive to Xbox and PC from 2034.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So next-gen COD can't be next-gen exclusive on XBox until 2034.

 

[chris1515]

So next-gen COD can't be next-gen exclusive on XBox until 2034.

Exactly

EDIT: Marketing deal with Sony finish next year for COD. From 2025 it will be on Xbox side.