Do you think there will be a mid gen refresh console from Sony and Microsoft?

450+ versus the 1000+ and often 2000+ of a typical AAA game. You really do need to factor in any contracted work that is done outside of a studio in addition to just the studio's own headcount.

Hence, why Iroboto mentions that budget is a more meaningful number for modern game development than just studio headcount.

Regards,
SB
1000+ people is not 'typical'. Oh my god.

Have we really lost all perspective on what is involved here? Where people are really trying to suggest that a game with a likely $80m+ budget is somehow *not* AAA?

And we really need to remember that 'quantity of names in the credits' is not the same as number of developers.

I'm getting so tired of getting online and finding people who have no inclination of having worthwhile discussion, and instead are just trying to find some 'angle' to win an argument.
 
SOME studios work on more than one project at a time. There's absolutely zero evidence that Larian does this. By what we actually know, they were entirely committed to Baldur's Gate 3 and nothing else.

You're literally just going to argue anything to avoid admitting it's a AAA game, huh? We're not having a discussion, you're just trying to 'win' the argument.
So I've been providing reasons why I don't consider Baldur's Gate 3 a game in the AAA category, I'm not avoiding the discussion here, you are welcome to provide reasons why you believe it is AAA rated.
If I go back to the history of gaming, the term AAA was coined to follow the same thing as bonds. AAA bonds designated a higher chance of guaranteed return on investment - and eventually games were categorized in this way. And for the most part it worked, AAA games were a formula of game designed for massive mainstream appeal with little risk provided they invested enough into the game to hit high return on investment mark. This is why AAA games that _flop_ are so painful for studios and typically 2 or 3 of these flops in a row and the publisher is done.

When we look at _Riskier_ investments, you are now moving into the AA category of games. These are niche titles that are designed for a small market and has less guarantee on investment. These are still costly to make, so making them cheaper to make is the obvious way to reduce risk. We now also have crowd funding, and now we have early access, further reducing that risk. A lot of AA rated titles are crowd funded and early access now to reduce the risk of investment up front.

The AA or AAA is not a designation of experience or the size of people working on a title, though, there is a large correlation between expenditure in both marketing and development, and typically AAA games have significantly more of both over AA.

In the recent times, we see that AAA games are now full of micro transactions, seasons, and all sorts of other methods to monetize users, and AA titles are not. Why? Because AA titles usually never hit critical massive sales, thus, making microtransactions a negatives investment for them (but when they do, the payback is enormous). If only 1 out of 10,000 players are buying, it's not a lot of microtransactions if your game only sells up to 1-2 million copies, anything less than 500K copies sold is probably considered indie, and indie is considered successful at 100K copies sold. Most of these AA games are riskier titles, with changes to their game design that would not typically be found in AAA gaming, like a call of duty.

If you have a problem with me calling Baldur's Gate 3 AA, you should really look at the entire catalog of gamepass titles, as it's full of AA titles, some websites go as far to label Control as AA. https://gamerant.com/best-aa-games-xbox-series-xs/#ace-combat-7-skies-unknown
Here's another list for the best AA titles: https://omnigameplayer.com/best-aa-games-you-can-play-2023/

Now that I've defined my boundaries, when I look at Baldurs' Gate, I see a game that started out in early access with staggered platform releases, designed for a niche western RPG market. It's a high quality product, but it's not AAA. That doesn't mean it's a bad game. What I would struggle with is finding a "full on" AAA title, like CoD, Halo, Gears, Assassin's Creed, etc - that would release as an early access and have a staggered multiplatform release. I've not known one, and you're welcome to provide examples.
 
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? Where people are really trying to suggest that a game with a likely $80m+ budget is somehow *not* AAA?
just googling around
AAA
Destiny is 500m.
Call of Duty is 250m
FF7 RE is 200m
Cyberpunk 220m
Assassin's Creed Odyssey 500m
Halo Infinite 500m

AA
Control 30m
 
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just googling around
AAA
Destiny is 500m.
Call of Duty is 250m
FF7 RE is 200m
Cyberpunk 220m
Assassin's Creed Odyssey 500m
Halo Infinite 500m

AA
Control 30m
Alright then. We're genuinely moving the goalposts of what 'AAA' means.

I was even being super conservative with $80m. $80,000,000. Somehow *not* a AAA game.

Absolutely ridiculous. I just cant continue on with this. You're not arguing in good faith. Like I said, you're only trying to 'win' an argument. It's just such a waste of all of our time.
 
Alright then. We're genuinely moving the goalposts of what 'AAA' means.

I was even being super conservative with $80m. $80,000,000. Somehow *not* a AAA game.

Absolutely ridiculous. I just cant continue on with this. You're not arguing in good faith. Like I said, you're only trying to 'win' an argument. It's just such a waste of all of our time.
I've written above, my reasonings. I've spent real time to write counter points above and you're just throwing numbers out there and showing me some arbitrary budget or some arbitrary studio size that you've defined in your head as being AAA. Here's another article debating precisely what we are:

Baldur’s Gate 3 has also shows us of the inefficiencies within large triple-A companies in developing video games. Baldur’s Gate 3 was said to have been developed by over 300 staffs across 6 studios with a budget of over $100 million dollars, a large number no doubt however this is still often less than the amount of staffs working on triple-A games such as Ubisoft which can range anywhere from 400 people and can go way north of that. Some even said it can have up to 2,000 people working on a single game.
 
So I've been providing reasons why I don't consider Baldur's Gate 3 a game in the AAA category,
No, you've been trying to move the goalposts on what is a 'AAA game' conveniently ever since I pointed out that Larian is NOT a small developer as you initially claimed. That's all that is happening here. Your complete inability to admit that you are wrong. I'm betting you didn't even realize Larian had a 450+ studio size before I pointed it out. But instead of just saying, "Oh wow I didn't know that", you're going to double down and resort to absurd arguments to keep up this idea that Larian are some plucky indie developer rather than the large AAA dev they are nowadays.
 
I've written above, my reasonings. I've spent real time to write counter points above and you're just throwing numbers out there and showing me some arbitrary budget or some arbitrary studio size that you've defined in your head as being AAA.
Nothing of what I'm saying is 'arbitrary', ffs. I'm using super conservative numbers here to make a point. A point you're obviously going to stubbornly fight to the death, no matter how ridiculous your talking points have to be. smh

You did exactly what I was afraid of and what I called out you might do. Waste BOTH our time arguing over this cuz you cant admit being wrong. Reasonable people are just so rare.
 
How about we get a variety of opinions on what budget ranges should be assigned to a given game tier? Or studio sizes if that is more preferable. We can probably arrive on some generally agreed upon ranges.
 
No, you've been trying to move the goalposts on what is a 'AAA game' conveniently ever since I pointed out that Larian is NOT a small developer as you initially claimed. That's all that is happening here. Your complete inability to admit that you are wrong. I'm betting you didn't even realize Larian had a 450+ studio size before I pointed it out. But instead of just saying, "Oh wow I didn't know that", you're going to double down and resort to absurd arguments to keep up this idea that Larian are some plucky indie developer rather than the large AAA dev they are nowadays.
Dude they are a 100-150 person team that only ramped up to 400 for BG3.

Larian Studios always goes all-in. After nearly bankrupting itself to make Divinity: Original Sin, Larian tripled in size to pull off an ambitious sequel, growing to around 150 developers. With one of the best RPGs of the decade under its belt, Larian then set out to make Baldur's Gate 3. A year in pre-production let them build out estimates of how much work this even more ambitious game would take, hiring developers to work on fancy cinematics Divinity didn't have. "We thought we had it all figured out. We even estimated how big we'd have to become," said Larian founder Swen Vincke.


They were wrong.

"I never expected us to be 400 people to make BG3," Vincke told me. "Nobody expected it. But it's literally what we needed to do it. We had a choice. There was a moment where we started understanding what we needed to do to make this game. We thought we understood. Then we actually really understood. And so we had two choices: we could scale it down, or we could scale ourselves up. And so we chose to scale ourselves up.
 
Dude they are a 100-150 person team that only ramped up to 400 for BG3.

That article LITERALLY SAYS THEY HAD 400 PEOPLE FOR BG3. How does this go against anything I said?

This is just pathetic. I'm just so god damn tired of trying to have honest, reasonable discussions with people online who have no intention of doing the same. You are clearly trawling Google searches trying to find some way to argue against me instead of just recognizing the very basic, reasonable take that a game with at least a $80m budget is a AAA title. Good lord. Please stop wasting our time. Yours, and mine. It's asinine.
 
That article LITERALLY SAYS THEY HAD 400 PEOPLE FOR BG3. How does this go against anything I said?
They are a small studio of 150 that ramped up to 400 for BG3. Most AAA studios will start at 400 and ramp up to 2000.

You are welcome to disagree. I have provided the reasons above why I don’t consider them AAA. There is no definition provided by some gaming authority. If you believe they are, that’s with you.
 
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No, you've been trying to move the goalposts on what is a 'AAA game' conveniently ever since I pointed out that Larian is NOT a small developer as you initially claimed. That's all that is happening here. Your complete inability to admit that you are wrong. I'm betting you didn't even realize Larian had a 450+ studio size before I pointed it out. But instead of just saying, "Oh wow I didn't know that", you're going to double down and resort to absurd arguments to keep up this idea that Larian are some plucky indie developer rather than the large AAA dev they are nowadays.
This seems to be a discussion about semantics at this point. The team for Baldur's Gate 3 was far larger than that of any indie dev or typical "AA" developer. But it wasn't as large as those found in the biggest publisher driven projects. If both sides can agree to this then I don't think there is a substantive point of disagreement, other than what label we should apply to a studio of this size.
 
Contractors are not necessarely working on the title from start to finish. A titlencan have 120 contractors throughout development having each be part of the team for 2 months each. Thats the equivalent of 60 full time employes in a year.
 
Have we really lost all perspective on what is involved here? Where people are really trying to suggest that a game with a likely $80m+ budget is somehow *not* AAA?
No-one has tried to define any terms at all, on either side of the argument. So yeah. $80 million isn't AAA (given budgets upwards of $500M for a AAA title), and it is. People just pick random criteria based on their own interpretation of a term that never had any concrete definitions in the first place. AAA was a marketing gimmick, not a measure of game, and it's never evolved into one.

I beseech people once again to stop talking 'AAA' and instead use terms that outlay their arguments, like permanent headcount, project headcount, project budget, studio revenue, etc. This is an 'engineering tech' thread and trying to gauge games by marketing jargon is contrary to that.

eg. If the argument is about the expected results of a studio, the point might be "a game costing $80 million to make should be able to achieve better" or "a game made by 2000 people should be able to attain a more consistent framerate."
 
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Maybe that was desscused here before but still. As it's known now, at least form leaked docs from MS what they don't plan release upgrades XSX next year, and next gen console should be in 2028, there is small chance they will release upgraded console in 2025. But maybe they will, Xbox One X was released 3 years before XSX. But for now looks like they don't have that plan. Will Sony release PS5 Pro. Maybe they also don't have release upgraded console. Also, but that is just my oppinion, there is no need for PS5 Pro. 4k 60 fps in all games, that will not give them a lot of new customers.
 
...there is no need for PS5 Pro. 4k 60 fps in all games, that will not give them a lot of new customers.
A Pro isn't about new customers directly. It's about preventing people leaving the ecosystem for PC (Sony's justification for PS4Pro), just upselling for a tidy profit to the hardcore fans, and expanding the market with hand-me-down consoles whether within the family or sold second-hand. Each Pro is basically another $200 profit margin in the bank and another PS user somewhere hopefully spending more money. What it won't do is convince loads of people who don't want a PS5 now to get into PS gaming on Pro once because it enables PS5 at 2160p60.
 
A Pro isn't about new customers directly. It's about preventing people leaving the ecosystem for PC (Sony's justification for PS4Pro), just upselling for a tidy profit to the hardcore fans, and expanding the market with hand-me-down consoles whether within the family or sold second-hand. Each Pro is basically another $200 profit margin in the bank and another PS user somewhere hopefully spending more money. What it won't do is convince loads of people who don't want a PS5 now to get into PS gaming on Pro once because it enables PS5 at 2160p60.
1080p-1440p 60 will be more common with the software trajectory.
 
A Pro isn't about new customers directly. It's about preventing people leaving the ecosystem for PC (Sony's justification for PS4Pro), just upselling for a tidy profit to the hardcore fans, and expanding the market with hand-me-down consoles whether within the family or sold second-hand. Each Pro is basically another $200 profit margin in the bank and another PS user somewhere hopefully spending more money.
I don't know how about other countries but here in Latvia situation is different. Here most of people who buy PS4, buy that to play. They don't bother about resolution or fps, (most of people, not all of them). A would call them basic gamers. People who are more in gaming bought PS4 and then changed that for PS4 Pro, but many of them had PC all this time. They buy PS4 ar PS4 Pro because of exclusive games. So they buy PC and PS despite anything. If there wouldn't be Pro they would still played on PS4. :)
1080p-1440p 60 will be more common with the software trajectory.
But this is now on PS5, Pro if will be released could target 4k60 in all games.
Until we see substantial RT increases from AMD GPU's I think they should stay away from a Pro console to be honest.
I think they should stay away from Pro anyway, and later release PS6. To be honest Xbox One X was cool, but also reduced how impressive new consoles were.
 
But this is now on PS5, Pro if will be released could target 4k60 in all games.

I think they should stay away from Pro anyway, and later release PS6. To be honest Xbox One X was cool, but also reduced how impressive new consoles were.
PS5 is 720p-1080p/60 machine. PS5 pro will not be powerful enough to jump that to 4k
 
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