Do you think there will be a mid gen refresh console from Sony and Microsoft?

[Remij]

Will it be, though? In late 2024 is a 60 CU APU + slightly faster clocked GDDR6 really going to be that exorbitant? I'm not so sure. The fact they have plans to basically to replace the $400 Digital PS5 and make it the 'standard' PS5 with the Slim indicates to me they are planning the Pro to replace the disc PS5, just without a disc. I can see the Pro launching late next year, without optical media, for $499. Maybe $599 with a disc.

Yes it will. PS5 is still $650 in Canada.. a Slim console will likely cost the same or maybe $50 less. I'd expect a PS5 Pro to be $750-800. They're not interested in bringing prices down much anymore like they used to in generations of old... they simply add more junk to it to keep the prices high. That's what they'll do here. PS5 Pro and a Dualsense Edge $800CAD+ please thanks..

Yeah that's my concern. It's one thing to just take advantage of a higher clocks like the PS5 can by just basically shifting it's GPU into 'supercharged PS4 mode' to run PS4 games at 2X the performance, it may be another to take advantage of a new architecture with more CU's. I don't know how the PS5 SDK/API's have evolved though, PS5 native games may not be as constrained as PS4 titles were in this respect. I'd be surprised if Sony wouldn't have considered this though.

I'm sure they have... but that doesn't mean that it will be easy for them in the future. I think things are going to get messy for them in the not too distant future.

You don't need to be sitting that close to the screen to not notice when you're rendering games with a sub-1080p native res, which will likely be increasingly common for modern titles on the PS5/Xbox for their 'performance modes' as we go forward.

That being said, in the grand scheme of things, I agree that it's not imperative MS release a competitor to this. MS's problem atm is software. The PS4 Pro was a 'success' with ~30m sales, but it was still a minority of the PS4 sales, and this will likely be a minority of PS5 sales until the next gen.

Eh, sure there are SOME games which are embarrassingly low resolution on current gen consoles which you would notice even from a distance, but generally it's not a massive difference. Hell, a large amount of console gamers clearly don't give a damn about resolution, as they were demanding 60fps performance modes in games regardless of what it did to the visuals. With these more powerful update consoles you're basically just giving developers license to release further unoptimized games.

I feel like Microsoft is right to just keep their target hardware where it's at. Focus on the games, focus on exclusive content for their platform, and keep prices as low as possible. PC has essentially becomes Microsoft's "Xbox Pro".. for consumers who don't care about price.. want the higher end experience.. "Get on GamePass and enjoy the ride no matter the device" is basically their focus.

 

[Overstander]

I think MS absolutely should just let Sony have free reign with a "PS5 Pro".. The thing will be stupidly expensive (for a console) and no developers will actually target it.

What does "target it" actually mean?
Just as an easy example :
A PS5 Pro with double the performance of the vanilla one will probably play all graphic/ raytracing modes that are on vanilla at 30fps , in 60fps...
There no need to "target" anything . It will just scale up.

You'll get the same resolution bump and maybe games will hold a steady 60.. which I guess is great.. What MS needs to focus on is getting games out and actually taking advantage of the hardware they already have.

Microsoft is so damn out of their console business. They are out and watching from the sideline.
I expect Microsoft to not release a next Gen Xbox from now on.
What was that sales numbers in Spain delta?

Like 15000 to 900? ( <of wich a big chunk will be actually Series S)...
Thats ridiculous! Thats more than a fail.
Microsoft will do shit.
They're out

Microsoft's console platform is in a MUCH MUCH better place to evolve incrementally over time than Sony's IMO.

And thats like saying the serios underdog boxer in a match will attack the fists of his opponent with his face until they are broken..

Will the PS5 Pro need patches for everything again? They have to "double everything" and inevitably hamstring their device in one way or another.. Whereas Microsoft's entire BC and game

Wow, simply wow. Thats liquid copium dtinking level argumenting here.
If anyone harmstrung something this gen , then it is MS with that Series S piece of garbage..
Sonys portfolio this gen will be( like last gens) perfectly aligned with each other.
From PS5 over PSVR2 to PS5 Pro - the lineup will look like the dream of a portfolio. Nothing will harmstring nothing.

compatibility is much more flexible.. so incremental console updates is easier to manage. I say let Sony release the PS5 Pro.. then have a new Xbox ready 1.5 years later and offset the PS5 Pro with more powerful hardware with better features.

You really think Xbox Division will develope a new console with Xbox series Consoles to PS5 ratio is even worse than that of the last gen?

These upgrades are very quickly going to lose their perceived value because there's diminishing returns when it comes to price/performance/visuals which we're rapidly approaching. I understand that Sony will want to continue Pro consoles simply to help bump the acceptable price to pay for consoles up and up over time... but that's not going to last for long. A PS5 Pro greatly diminishes the impact of a PS6, and same goes for Xbox. Microsoft knows this and I think MS may be better set up to bear the grunt of that change than Sony is.

Oh you wait better and then you see. ..

 

[Remij]

What does "target it" actually mean?
Just as an easy example :
A PS5 Pro with double the performance of the vanilla one will probably play all graphic/ raytracing modes that are on vanilla at 30fps , in 60fps...
There no need to "target" anything . It will just scale up.


Microsoft is so damn out of their console business. They are out and watching from the sideline.
I expect Microsoft to not release a next Gen Xbox from now on.
What was that sales numbers in Spain delta?

Like 15000 to 900? ( <of wich a big chunk will be actually Series S)...
Thats ridiculous! Thats more than a fail.
Microsoft will do shit.
They're out



And thats like saying the serios underdog boxer in a match will attack the fists of his opponent with his face until they are broken..

Wow, simply wow. Thats liquid copium dtinking level argumenting here.
If anyone harmstrung something this gen , then it is MS with that Series S piece of garbage..
Sonys portfolio this gen will be( like last gens) perfectly aligned with each other.
From PS5 over PSVR2 to PS5 Pro - the lineup will look like the dream of a portfolio. Nothing will harmstring nothing.



You really think Xbox Division will develope a new console with Xbox series Consoles to PS5 ratio is even worse than that of the last gen?

Oh you wait better and then you see. ..

Target... like actually build for it.

Well, considering MS hasn't barely released any next gen games yet.. the fact that they've sold ~one Xbox for every 2 Playstations is pretty impressive... considering Sony's launched nearly everything in their arsenal in the time.

Spider-Man Miles Morales
TLOU P1
Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart
GT7
Horizon Forbidden West
Horizon Burning Shores
God of War Ragnarok


MS' ecosystem is far more flexible and adaptable to hardware changes than Sony's is.. that's just simply well known fact at this point. Sony's half assed attempt at all this stuff will bite them in the ass when they want to make any actual meaningful changes.

Developers already support PCs with lower specs than the Series S. Xbox developers will have to support the full range regardless... so if your biggest issue comes down to 3rd parties... well then I guess Series S will hamstring PS5 Pro 3rd party games as well

And finally... we already know a next gen Xbox is in development.....

 

[Flappy Pannus]

Yes it will. PS5 is still $650 in Canada.. a Slim console will likely cost the same or maybe $50 less.

I believe it was leaked quite a while ago the Slim will be $399, same as the digital PS5 now. The optical drive will be an add-on for all regular PS5 models going forward when the Slim hits the market. Still if the price isn't confirmed, it really doesn't make sense for the Slim to see any sort of price increase over the digital PS5 now.

I'd expect a PS5 Pro to be $750-800.

I don't see the rationale for that exorbitant a price increase, unless you mean CAD (which to keep things clear is why I'm using USD despite being a Canuck myself). Keeping the same amount of memory, storage, but a 60 CU APU and slightly faster GDDR6, especially if you also remove the optical drive, I can't see it at $800 USD in late 2024, no way. A lot of people were overestimating the PS5's price until it hit the market too, and certainly most didn't expect a $399 Digital version at launch.

 

[Remij]

Was leaked quite a while ago the Slim will be $399, same as the digital PS5 now. The optical drive will be an add-on for all regular PS5 models going forward when the Slim hits the market. Doesn't make sense for the Slim to see a price increase over the digital PS5 now.


I don't see the rationale for that exorbitant a price increase, unless you mean CAD (which to keep things clear is why I'm using USD despite being a Canuck myself). Keeping the same amount of memory, storage, but a 60 CU APU and slightly faster GDDR6, especially if you also remove the optical drive

Of course I mean CAD.. I literally say in Canada in my post. And regardless... things aren't getting easier for people over the next year. I can't see a PS5 Pro coming in at less than $600 USD... which is ~$800CAD.....

This will be a premium product not meant to replace the PS5, but to sit atop it.. let's not fool ourselves.

And yea, it wouldn't surprise me to see them remove the disc drive... and then charge people another $50-70 for the privilege.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

Of course I mean CAD.. I literally say in Canada in my post.

I was confused as I didn't see point in switching to CAD in this context, as I just said "I can see it at $599" - $800 cad is $600 US. So you're saying it's going to be 'stupidly expensive', give no indication of what that actually means in $, so I say "Eh I dunno, I can see it at $499, maybe $599" - you disagree...but end up just repeating my $599 estimate by switching it to CAD. Like, wtf?

It should be understood unless we specially denote the currency, we're speaking in USD due to the predominant makeup of the userbase here (regardless it should have been clear I was using USD by referencing the $400 Digital PS5 beforehand). I mean there's a reason the vast majority of tech outlets refer to USD prices when discussing value despite if they're Aussie or Brit, just because that's where the companies are based and where the majority of the market is.

I do not think a $100 USD premium over today's price is 'stupidly expensive', but like I said I think it's even possible it could come it at $499 USD without an optical disk.

This will be a premium product not meant to replace the PS5, but to sit atop it.. let's not fool ourselves.

Like I said, the $399 discless Slim will be the new standard PS5 according to the rumours - there won't be a version with the disc integrated into the unit anymore. A Pro, even at just $499, would be sitting 'a top of' the new product stack.

 

[Remij]

I was confused as I didn't see point in switching to CAD in this context, as I just said "I can see it at $599" - $800 cad is $600 US. So you're saying it's going to be 'stupidly expensive', give no indication of what that actually means in $, so I say "Eh I dunno, I can see it at $499, maybe $599" - you disagree...but end up just repeating my $599 estimate by switching it to CAD. Like, wtf?

It should be understood unless we specially denote the currency, we're speaking in USD due to the predominant makeup of the userbase here. I mean there's a reason the vast majority of tech outlets refer to USD prices when discussing value despite if they're Aussie or Brit because that's where the companies are based and where the majority of the market is.

I do not think a $100 USD premium over today's price is 'stupidly expensive', but like I said I think it's even possible it could come it at $499 USD without an optical disk.



Like I said, the $399 discless Slim will be the new standard PS5 according to the rumours - there won't be a version with the disc integrated into the unit anymore. A Pro, even at just $499, would be sitting 'a top of' the new product stack.

I mean, I was clear.. I gave an exact indication of exactly what I was talking about by literally saying the currency... It's not my fault that you couldn't just do the math without responding acting like I meant something different when I was clear about it. If you would have done that... you would have said "so we agree it would be about $600USD or ~$800CAD then"... and I would have responded... yes.. that's stupidly expensive for a console.. and you could have simply disagreed.

It should be understood that when I say a currency, that is the currency I'm referring to... do the math yourself if you want to argue points against it.

If you don't think $800CAD is getting stupidly expensive for a console... then congrats I guess?

 

[Flappy Pannus]

If you would have done that... you would have said "so we agree it would be about $600USD or ~$800CAD then"... and I would have responded... yes.. that's stupidly expensive for a console.. and you could have simply disagreed.

I was the one who first brought up actual dollar estimates, and it was clear I was using USD. If you were actually agreeing with my price estimates, you would just say "Well I think $599 is indeed stupidly expensive, guess you disagree' - instead you just started rattling off CAD pricing after saying "Yes, it will be exorbitant". Your response doesn't make any sense as a disagreement when you just end up repeating my guesstimates, but just in your own local currency - like did you figure you were educating me on the pricing in my own region? It would make some sense if the goal of your reply was to say "Well considering the price hike Sony inflicted on regions outside the US that has to be factored in", but it clearly wasn't that as it was a straight USD>CAD conversion.

And btw, $800 Cad for a PS5 Pro with a dualsense Edge actually undercuts my upper estimate! If the PS5 Pro actually came shipped with a $200 controller in the box for $599 US, that would be regarded as extremely aggressive pricing! I don't think you actually even know what you're arguing at this point, simply asking for clarification if you were using CAD or USD shouldn't have caused you to get this weirdly defensive. I was being polite in simply querying that, because your reply was so nonsensical otherwise.

If you don't think $800CAD is getting stupidly expensive for a console... then congrats I guess?

It would be $100 USD more than the current console, the one that they're still barely able to meet demand with. No, I don't think a price increase of 20% is 'stupidly expensive' for what would ultimately be a niche product, even if it does come in at that. It sure as hell wouldn't be if it included a $200 controller either.

 

[Remij]

And while I'm at it, I'll just give another opinion. This generation transition has been the most pathetic generation of all time. Great games, but nothing demonstrably crazy as far as next gen visuals go. Epic came out with that UE5 tech demo which showcased on PS5... and we still don't have an actual legit UE5 game on consoles yet..

Games take longer than ever to make, cost more than ever to make... all this talk about all these specialized hardware features and SSDs.. and it's fallen flat SO FAR! Now, if you're fine waiting for "next gen" to begin 2.5 years after the generation starts... then you'll be happy with the PS5 Pro... otherwise it will likely be even less impressive than this current generation transition.

 

[Remij]

I was the one who first brought up actual dollar estimates, and it was clear I was using USD. If you were actually agreeing with my price estimates, you would just say "Well I think $599 is indeed stupidly expensive, guess you disagree' - instead you just started rattling off CAD pricing after saying "Yes, it will be exorbitant". Your response doesn't make any sense as a disagreement when you just up repeating my guesstimates, but just in your own local currency. Christ, $800 Cad for a PS5 Pro with a dualsense Edge actually undercuts my upper estimate! If the PS5 Pro actually came shipped with a $200 controller in the box for $599 US, that would be regarded as extremely aggressive pricing! I don't think you actually even know what you're arguing at this point.



It would be $100 USD more than the current console, the one that they're barely able to meet demand. No, I don't think a price increase of 20% is 'stupidly expensive' for what would ultimately be a niche product, even if it does come it that.

Where did I say I disagreed with your price estimates?

I was literally responding to your estimates.... I did say $599 is stupidly expensive... and did so in a way that shows what price *I* would be paying.... And obviously I do disagree with you about whether that constitutes "stupidly expensive" or not.. So why make your post acting all confused about it? I never acted like I was confused about your USD numbers... I was literally responding to them.

Is $800 for a Canadian steeper than $600 is for an American? Guess that depends on our situations doesn't it?? Feel free to disagree... but don't act like I'm saying some wacky shit.

Dualsense Edge isn't ACTUALLY worth $200.... and it wouldn't be much of a "Pro" console without it... and I did say $800+ .... meaning more. But yes... keep acting all confused from your own making..

 

[eastmen]

What does "target it" actually mean?
Just as an easy example :
A PS5 Pro with double the performance of the vanilla one will probably play all graphic/ raytracing modes that are on vanilla at 30fps , in 60fps...
There no need to "target" anything . It will just scale up.

Why wouldn't a new xbox do the same? Even if you move to zen 5/ rdna 4 or what have you it should be childs play to hit more than double the frame rate of the current zen 2/rdna 2 consoles esp in games that are ray tracing bound

Microsoft is so damn out of their console business. They are out and watching from the sideline.
I expect Microsoft to not release a next Gen Xbox from now on.
What was that sales numbers in Spain delta?

Like 15000 to 900? ( <of wich a big chunk will be actually Series S)...
Thats ridiculous! Thats more than a fail.
Microsoft will do shit.
They're out



And thats like saying the serios underdog boxer in a match will attack the fists of his opponent with his face until they are broken..

MS is investing in games more than ever. If the activision deal goes through I expect them to go another generation. It's never been easier to create a console. Go to AMD and ask for the best apu for x year and make a few modifications. It seems to be what sony and Ms keep doing.

Wow, simply wow. Thats liquid copium dtinking level argumenting here.
If anyone harmstrung something this gen , then it is MS with that Series S piece of garbage..
Sonys portfolio this gen will be( like last gens) perfectly aligned with each other.
From PS5 over PSVR2 to PS5 Pro - the lineup will look like the dream of a portfolio. Nothing will harmstring nothing.



You really think Xbox Division will develope a new console with Xbox series Consoles to PS5 ratio is even worse than that of the last gen?

Oh you wait better and then you see. ..

Sony lacks flexibility in price while Ms doesn't. The series s will be able to scale down in price faster than the ps5. It's already tiny compared to the monster that is the ps5 console size.

As for the ratio of ps5 to xbox this generation why don't we wait to see what goes on. If both companies go till 2028 we are barely started.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Sure, except on PC you actually have the ability to push things much further with extremely high resolutions, visual setting qualities, and mods and so forth yourself. You're also sitting close enough to the screen to appreciably tell the difference.

I don't know your data source comparing the screen size, distance and visual acuity of console vs PC gamers, but letting that slide... the principle here is the same. Some console owners, just like some PC owners, value higher graphical settings and are willing to pay for more powerful hardware. You just have less options of what the hardware is in the console space, but that's always been the case.

Mods are irrelevant unless you're trying to make this into another PC vs console argument. That has no place in the mid-gen console refresh debate. You are clearly not the target market for such a machine.

 

[Remij]

I don't know your data source comparing the screen size, distance and visual acuity of console vs PC gamers, but letting that slide... the principle here is the same. Some console owners, just like some PC owners, value higher graphical settings and are willing to pay for more powerful hardware. You just have less options of what the hardware is in the console space, but that's always been the case.

Mods are irrelevant unless you're trying to make this into another PC vs console argument. That has no place in the mid-gen console refresh debate. You are clearly not the target market for such a machine.

My own eyes. Am I not allowed an opinion?

It's a simple fact that mods can improve visuals and utilize more resources. There's no PC vs console argument about it. Feel free to ignore that point if you wish.. I never acted like mods were important to console gamers.

 

[pjbliverpool]

And Alex has to make videos where he must admit that a console with roughly RTX 3090 Performance is a thing ..

One would hope that a brand new performance orientated console launched 4 years after a high end PC GPU would be able to at least roughly match it. That said, unless this does feature significantly more beefed up RT capability over RDNA3, it will still lag behind in RT capabilities.

But really, why would anyone be comparing the PS5P to a 4 year old GPU at that point? The 5xxx series should be available from Nvidia by then so at the high end the comparison points are going to be th 5090 while something around the 5060Ti should be expected to offer similar performance to the old 3090 - with further improved RT capabilities.

 

[Seanspeed]

Any PS5 Pro is likely going to exist to ensure that all games can hit a 60fps target without dialling the graphics way back. The Digital Foundry guys, in several weekly podcasts over the past couple of months, have aired opinions that more games on console will target 30fps but at the same time see there is no need for a Pro console.

This is somewhat baffling disassociation of saying consoles aren't powerful enough but there is no need for more powerful consoles.. Folks who like consoles but having got used to 60fps (again), don't want to revert to 30fps no matter how good the objection motion blur is, well be the market.

Higher framerates and stronger RT? Those are pretty much the only stretch points for Series X and PS5 at the moment. Nobody is chasing 8K displays, despite what Sony lyingly print on their box.

The point is that taking games designed for 30fps to 60fps takes a huge leap in hardware. One that doesn't seem feasible without a huge increase in costs.

Also, people will adjust back to 30fps just fine. Have you seen one single review knocking Tears of the Kingdom for only being 30fps? No, you haven't. Nor did you see anybody criticizing all the blockbuster PS4 exclusives that were only 30fps. This '60fps or bust' mantra from console users lately is coming exclusively from social media echo chambers, not the typical console owner.

 

[snc]

Target... like actually build for it.

Well, considering MS hasn't barely released any next gen games yet.. the fact that they've sold ~one Xbox for every 2 Playstations is pretty impressive...

Agree, for weakest lineup in console history its not that bad, I didnt even turn on my xsx once this year ;d

 

[techuse]

I guess in a world where consumers are silly enough to buy a 200$ controller, Sony sees a profitable market for a console that won’t even be powerful enough to offer a tangible increase in performance where it’s actually needed.

 

[DieH@rd]

With hints in Tom Henderson's article and Cerny's RT patent that about updated RT capabilities, GPU will most likely move beyond RDNA2.

But I'm more interested to see if they will stick to Zen2. Zen4 would iron out so many CPU-related issues on current games.

Sony sees a profitable market for a console that won’t even be powerful enough to offer a tangible increase in performance where it’s actually needed.

PS4 Pro was 20% of all sold PS4 consoles after it released in late 2016, and Sony was happy with that.
PS5 Pro will have same or even smaller ratio of sales [there is no big resolution update push in TV market], but sales will still satisfy new customers "who want the best" and even more importantly core "enthusiast" consumers who spend most on new games. Plus, those who upgrade from base to midgen console usually gift their old console to a family member, thus providing Sony with a new customer who can purchase games/addons.

IMO there are no downsides as long as games made later for base console are without issues. And we saw that PS4 got great game support with stable framerates and advanced tech solutions not only by the time PS5 came, but also after.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

The point is that taking games designed for 30fps to 60fps takes a huge leap in hardware. One that doesn't seem feasible without a huge increase in costs.

It does if the base hardware is just comfortably hitting 30fps, if the game is in the 40-50fps without a frame lock, then no, it doesn't require a "huge leap in hardware". There are also different hardware resources that can - or provide technical options - for improving performance. More RAM can allow faster-but-less-RAM-efficient algorithms. More GPU resource is not just about graphics, it's boosting compute as well. If memory bandwidth is the limitation, then changing none of the hardware apart from the bus and RAM will have the desired affect.

Software, including games, rarely has an equitable toll on the various hardware resources in a system and it can take only a minor deficiency there and there to force a 60fps target to 30fps.

Also, people will adjust back to 30fps just fine. Have you seen one single review knocking Tears of the Kingdom for only being 30fps? No, you haven't.

Switch is a super low-powered system and plenty of games struggle to reliably hit 30fps, nobody was expected 60fps. At launch BoTW spent large chunks of gameplay in the 20s.

No, you haven't. Nor did you see anybody criticizing all the blockbuster PS4 exclusives that were only 30fps. This '60fps or bust' mantra from console users lately is coming exclusively from social media echo chambers, not the typical console owner.

Most PS2, Xbox, PS3 and Xbox 360 AA and AAA games were 30fps and had had got used to this. Then for three years, most console games are 60fps. That's a lot of time for people to acclimatise and not want to go back.

My own eyes. Am I not allowed an opinion?

Of course you are! But I am confused, because you also wrote this:

Sure, except on PC you actually have the ability to push things much further with extremely high resolutions, visual setting qualities, and mods and so forth yourself. You're also sitting close enough to the screen to appreciably tell the difference.

Which I can only interpret as you saying that only on PC you are sitting close enough to the screen to appreciate the increased graphical fidelity provide - which is why wondered about the source of your data. But I see that you're only talking about your personal experience, which isn't actually relevant to the wider discussion on the value of better graphical fidelity to people who are not you. I.e. everybody such a console would be aimed at.

It's a simple fact that mods can improve visuals and utilize more resources. There's no PC vs console argument about it. Feel free to ignore that point if you wish.. I never acted like mods were important to console gamers.

And yet you're still banging on about PC mods. Weird.

 

[techuse]

With hints in Tom Henderson's article and Cerny's RT patent that about updated RT capabilities, GPU will most likely move beyond RDNA2.

But I'm more interested to see if they will stick to Zen2. Zen4 would iron out so many CPU-related issues on current games.


PS4 Pro was 20% of all sold PS4 consoles after it released in late 2016, and Sony was happy with that.
PS5 Pro will have same or even smaller ratio of sales [there is no big resolution update push in TV market], but sales will still satisfy new customers "who want the best" and even more importantly core "enthusiast" consumers who spend most on new games. Plus, those who upgrade from base to midgen console usually gift their old console to a family member, thus providing Sony with a new customer who can purchase games/addons.

IMO there are no downsides as long as games made later for base console are without issues. And we saw that PS4 got great game support with stable framerates and advanced tech solutions not only by the time PS5 came, but also after.

AFAIK that 20% figure which was put out only half a year after its launch is the only data we have. We have no idea if that trend continued or they quickly burned through the niche audience interested in a higher spec console. Do you have a link to sales data far into its lifecycle?

Potential downside is a lengthening of the console generation.