Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2011]

[ultragpu]

SSM used a hybrid deferred renderer with a forward renderer for certain things.
http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=5250&page=2

 

[MJP]

They do a deferred shadow pass, which isn't really "deferred rendering" as most people speak of it. For instance Crysis 1 and Unreal Engine 3 also do a deferred shadow pass. Either way they don't have the problem of requiring the GPU to blend into an HDR render target.

 

[tuna]

Regarding the Shift2 feature, why did you not ask them regarding 60 fps?

 

[AlNom]

What's there to elaborate on freeing up an extra 17ms isn't exactly easy; you're either going to give up resolution or shaders. Art goes a long way to hiding technical deficiencies that would have made 60fps possible, but I don't get the impression the studio had a huge budget either. *shrug*

 

[Delta9]

Tech analysis on Gears of War 3 Beta:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-gears-of-war-3-beta-tech-analysis

:smile:

Despite the lack of any form of AA in the beta code, it has to be said that overall image quality in the beta is excellent, and jaggies are hardly an issue at all;

wut?

Grandmaster needs those eyes checked!

 

[AlNom]

You need to stop playing screenshots! Aside from intersection of the smoke, I certainly don't find the lack of AA a particular issue in this environment, do you?

 

[Delta9]

You need to stop playing screenshots! Aside from intersection of the smoke, I certainly don't find the lack of AA a particular issue in this environment, do you?

I sure wouldn't claim it's hardly an issue and is excellent.

here is another screen.

 

[SteelOak]

there is some aliasing especially on trashball rooftop, on some thin objects and on objects contrasting with sun but overall I was really suprised how clean game without AA can look.
Art can do magic(if this is case of art ).
Game is a lot cleaner than your average game with no AA

 

[dragonelite]

I prefer this then what i saw from the 360 version of portal 2 which looked like a blurry mess.
Who knows maybe they will optimize some more and get some mlaa going on that hopefully wont blur the IQ that much.

Haha and time to go into winter sleep for E3 and Gears 3 release date hope i dont screw up and wake up 200 years into the future.

 

[SteelOak]

Who knows maybe they will optimize some more and get some mlaa going on that hopefully wont blur the IQ that much.

maybe I have low standards but i don't think there is a reason to waste resources on this.
IMO aliasing isn't that noticable in this game and it's not worse than in the previous games.
of course it would be cool to have clean and crisp gears with this whole new lighting and other engine improvements but I don't know if this is possible on this old hardware without some compromises so better leave it as it is because as a whole game looks really great.

 

[AlNom]

I sure wouldn't claim it's hardly an issue and is excellent.

Well, you're obviously going to find flaws in a screen capture or just standing still... the comment is about the IQ in spite of the lack of AA, which you even quoted. I think you're taking the second part of the sentence too literally and out of context. He's hardly trying to say that no AA is awesome, and I'm not sure how you could possibly comprehend the sentence as such. I just find it ironic and amusing that the article is commenting on the quality of the image despite the lack of AA, and you're resorting to cherry picking to show that only a couple edges that do need AA.

On a related note, how many games have gotten away with all the smoke sans low-resolution depth comparisons? Believe me, with all the smoke grenades being flung about in capture the leader, it's a wonder some folk don't appreciate that you're not seeing 1/4 res or 1/16th res geometry showing up. Surely that factors into "overall image quality."

 

[Delta9]

I just find it ironic and amusing that the article is commenting on the quality of the image despite the lack of AA, and you're resorting to cherry picking to show that only a couple edges that do need AA.

The full quote.

Despite the lack of any form of AA in the beta code, it has to be said that overall image quality in the beta is excellent, and jaggies are hardly an issue at all; this is mostly down to a combination of the artwork style lacking extreme contrast and also in the accomplished post-processing effects. Indeed, if anything we see an improvement over Gears 2 here - the majority of the older game's specular aliasing issues are all but gone.

Overall includes AA which it has none of. And how is it cherry picking if it has no AA.If any edges appear clean it's just from the angle right?

 

[AlNom]

So approximately 5 problem edges across two screenshots completely negates what he's trying to say? Awesome, really tech discussion worthy for the forums. A+

If any edges appear clean it's just from the angle right?

Not necessarily...

 

[Delta9]

So approximately 5 problem edges across two screenshots completely negates what he's trying to say?

Not necessarily...

Well,I just don't see how no AA is not an issue but some shimmering with MLAA gets way more talk to it being an issue.

In the 2nd screen it seems to be the angles and distance play the part in hiding as anything up close really standout as jaggie.

 

[AlNom]

Well,I just don't see how no AA is not an issue

See, the problem is that you're taking the statement out of context and as an absolute when it's just simply that we have seen a lot of games that don't have AA or have 2xMSAA (ala Gears 2) even and the edge aliasing is so much more noticeable.

but some shimmering with MLAA gets way more talk to it being an issue.

What? I don't even... Nowhere in the article is there a comparison of no AA to MLAA issues with specular or thin objects. What does this have to do with anything?

MLAA is going to be better than nothing, but I mean, that's so far removed from what the article is trying to convey. So now you're complaining about discussion? How is this relevant to the thread?

In the 2nd screen it seems to be the angles and distance play the part in hiding as anything up close really standout as jaggie.

Well, in the same image, you do realize there are more than 5 steps on the staircase than just those 5 jaggies... *shrug*

 

[ultragpu]

I guess the use of single color pallet in map such as Trenches helps to hide the jaggy a bit but map such as Old Town and thrash Ball with more color variation tend to show offensive aliasing. My bet is that the game will be very inconsistent IQ wise although AF is quite decent.

 

[AlNom]

Well, you'll probably have better results in general when you don't have a lot of changes between direct sunlight and the shaded areas. Old town's not so plagued with the issue with a rather consistent illumination. Trenches does have the colour palette working in their favour, but even the desert MP map in Gears 2 had a similar set of colours, yet it appeared more aliased from the harsher lighting.

Regards the AF, I'm a bit surprised they did it well enough for the parallax mapped roads.

 

[betan]

See, the problem is that you're taking the statement out of context and as an absolute when it's just simply that we have seen a lot of games that don't have AA or have 2xMSAA (ala Gears 2) even and the edge aliasing is so much more noticeable.

Yes, art style, post processing, tone mapping etc. are all important factors.

So, do you think, in whatever context you like, "overall image quality in the beta is excellent, and jaggies are hardly an issue at all"?

 

[AlNom]

huh? What's the point in taking the comments out of context? Seriously, these arguments for the sake of arguing are rather tiresome. If you have something technical to discuss, please do. I'm sure there are other forums that will gladly go on forever arguing words and wordplay.

But fine, I'll bite. No, the image quality isn't excellent. Nothing can be unless it has infinite resolution at real-world framerates (3000fps IIRC the estimate) and in 3D.

 

[ultragpu]

Old town's not so plagued with the issue with a rather consistent illumination.

You may well get away with it in motion or during intense actions but in still shots the aliasing can be quite visible, of course not to take away from the otherwise beautiful look for the rest of the package.