Did ATI hold back on R520 to make room for R580?

Jawed said:
I believe ATI has over-inflated R520's prices, because they can. (I wouldn't be surprised if this is for the benefit of the AIBs, for them to extract maximum revenue, in compensation for the last 6 months' wait.)

ATi cannot over-inflate R520's prices and increase revenue in the current market situation. The only tool manufacturers have to inflate prices is restricting supply - and by doing so they limit market penetration, sales and revenue.

If there is plentiful supply, the market will do its thing and retailers will compete in price and the price will drop just as it did with the G70 series.
 
I'm not sure thats the case. A manufacturer can position their chip price given the competetive environment, and that may yeild a high margin if they end up with a high performance relative to their costs. What you'll probably find is that the manufacturer will probably try not to move that price for a while, instead offer increased incentives ("marketing" rewards) which give the AIB's a little more leeway, and only after they are stretched at that point are they likely to lower the chip cost.
 
Dave Baumann said:
I'm not sure thats the case. A manufacturer can position their chip price given the competetive environment, and that may yeild a high margin if they end up with a high performance relative to their costs. What you'll probably find is that the manufacturer will probably try not to move that price for a while, instead offer increased incentives ("marketing" rewards) which give the AIB's a little more leeway, and only after they are stretched at that point are they likely to lower the chip cost.

Dave, maybe I'm daft but I don't see how this addresses what I outlined above. Where does consumer demand and market competition factor into your analysis? A manufacturer cannot wilfully conspire with AIB's to keep prices high in a competitive environment. The price always tends to an equilibrium point - any tactics they use to try to manipulate that to a large extent will result in lower sales/revenue.
 
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IgnorancePersonified said:
I think your putting way to much faith in market forces and thier influenceon a market that is closer to a monoply or oligoply than a "Free Market".

You may be right. But I think the e-tail market isn't as organized as maybe the BestBuys and CircuitCity's are. I'm sure most high-end hardware is bought online - and I see more evidence of undercutting other stores prices than any kind of cartel behavior.
 
_xxx_ said:
OK, so wtf is RD580? :???:

We need a utility where we can enter the codename and it tells us what it is or some such... too many f***ing codenames for everything and anything :devilish:

Hehe. Actually the search engine on this site has come in handy on occasion when I've had codename nightmares. ;)
 
that's true for the retailers and the AIB but what about the manufacturers of the chips and the reference designs that are stamped out by the majority of AIB's? It seems the AIB's in some circumstances use cards provided to them from 1 manufacturer and just re-badge them. They(IHV) dictate price policy that flows down hill... because they can when "in Season". That's the market I am referring too. I'm just glad that the 'single IHV' policies of companies like ASUS and MSI have gone.
 
caboosemoose said:
I don't think ATI held back on the XT and I don't think there'll be a PE version of R520. I also happen to know that quite close to the launch (within a few weeks) certain relatively senior bods at ATI were expcting the card to launch at 650MHz, and I am assuming that yields were just too horrible at that clock.

So it does come down to yields then. I still think that it's too much of a cooincidence that the X1800XT was just powerful enough to edge ahead in critical games at just the settings that people were likely to be using. I think they deliberately hit a specific level of performance for the reference card. What remains to be seen is if they were able to do this with some headroom or if the 1 month delay was necessary so they could speed bin enough parts to meet demand. I don't think we will see an official PE version from ATI, but I do expect AIBs to release factory o/c'd versions if possible and at least versions with higher clocked memory. Likely won't be enough to match GTX 512, though.
 
Jawed said:
I believe ATI has over-inflated R520's prices, because they can. (I wouldn't be surprised if this is for the benefit of the AIBs, for them to extract maximum revenue, in compensation for the last 6 months' wait.)

Originally, back in June, R520 would have been dandy (though without BF2 and FEAR it might not have won many benchmarks) and architecturally I think ATI was taking a keep it simple stupid approach to their first R5xx part, with the 16-1-1-1 architecture - instead of going balls to the wall with 16-1-3-1 as in R580.

I also think that the price chasm twixt X1600XT and X1800XL - $200 - indicates that X1800XL/XT are going to drop very heavily in price.

And to me the best reason why is R580. With X1800XL at $250 and X1800XT at $300/350 (256/512MB) there's room for $450/$500/$550 X1900XL/XT-256/XT-512 parts. It's a pisser that it'll be after Christmas before R580 hits the streets.

Jawed

I agree completely on all counts. IMO ATI could absorb lowered revenue from R520 financially, but their AIB partners could not. ATI needs to do whatever they can to make sure that at least their partners make money, even if they have to take a hit to do it. They are going to need them for R580 and beyond.
 
mrcorbo said:
I agree completely on all counts. IMO ATI could absorb lowered revenue from R520 financially, but their AIB partners could not. ATI needs to do whatever they can to make sure that at least their partners make money, even if they have to take a hit to do it. They are going to need them for R580 and beyond.

One thing I will e curious to see is if Nvidia are willing to take a hit to damage ATI. The lower the MSRP on GTX 512 the more pressure there will be on ATI. So what's it going to be for Jen-Hsun revenues or revenge?
 
I dunno why ATi would hold back since this product was so late to begin with. R520 should have been here 6 months ago according to their timetable.
 
mrcorbo said:
Did ATI hold back on R520 to make room for R580?

No.

They may have held back on the memory clock because they didn't need more bandwidth for this part and to have this increased memory bandwidth as a selling point (oh, it looks so pretty on the box/spec sheet) for the R580, but that's it.

If you look at the rumored specifications for R580 and comapre them to R520 you will see that R580 (like RV530) marks a special shift in the performance mix with hree independent shaders per pipe as opposed to a single one. This means that R580 should be a shading beast compared to R520 and that no clocks on the R520 could save it from utter defeat by its sibling. What this means, in my opinion, is that the R520 represents a new implemenatation of the classic configuration and proportions, while the R580 will be part of the new wave of incredibly shading capable GPUs. Because of this, no clocks on the R520 really matter as this will mark a changing of the guard.

I do think that ATI may have used slightly more conservative numbers on the R520 than they initially planned, but I don't think R580 is the reason. Instead, I believe the reason to be that R520 has been a "problem child" from the start and there were no incentives to take more risks of it becoming one in retail. Lower clocks mean higher yields and fewer problems with the products sold. Both of these factors help profits as long as the part is still competitive, which it is. This is supported by thesupposed last-minute change from a 650MHz core clock to 625MHz, a small degradation in performance that probably makes yields, power consumption, heat, and RMAs more manageable.
 
wireframe said:
No.

They may have held back on the memory clock because they didn't need more bandwidth for this part and to have this increased memory bandwidth as a selling point (oh, it looks so pretty on the box/spec sheet) for the R580, but that's it.

If you look at the rumored specifications for R580 and comapre them to R520 you will see that R580 (like RV530) marks a special shift in the performance mix with hree independent shaders per pipe as opposed to a single one. This means that R580 should be a shading beast compared to R520 and that no clocks on the R520 could save it from utter defeat by its sibling. What this means, in my opinion, is that the R520 represents a new implemenatation of the classic configuration and proportions, while the R580 will be part of the new wave of incredibly shading capable GPUs. Because of this, no clocks on the R520 really matter as this will mark a changing of the guard.

I do think that ATI may have used slightly more conservative numbers on the R520 than they initially planned, but I don't think R580 is the reason. Instead, I believe the reason to be that R520 has been a "problem child" from the start and there were no incentives to take more risks of it becoming one in retail. Lower clocks mean higher yields and fewer problems with the products sold. Both of these factors help profits as long as the part is still competitive, which it is. This is supported by thesupposed last-minute change from a 650MHz core clock to 625MHz, a small degradation in performance that probably makes yields, power consumption, heat, and RMAs more manageable.


And for the games that aren't shader-bound?
 
trinibwoy said:
sireric has voted "Ati will release its r580 monster and sweep the floor with nvidia" on a recent poll at Rage. Funny stuff :LOL:

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33833964

As well, did you notice Komb's smiley re "R580 won't be released any time soon"? There begin to be Signs and Portents showing up in public that Anand's "CeBit" prediction may have been too conservative.

Those public portents haven't reached critical mass yet, but they do seem to be growing.
 
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