Dark Souls

[Shifty Geezer]

You don't have kill that Black Knight. A suitable challenge should be expected.

Sure. I don't have a problem with that per se. I have the problem with the loss of effort getting to that point, so the learning phase isn't about learning how to combat (or when to avoid) enemies, but considerably about grind to get to the same spot.

How does one teach a kid about spicy food and hot water ?[/quopte]Except I'm not a child. You can't explain to a child what 'hot' means as they have no reference. Adults do, so we don't need learning by experience.

Furthermore, I reiterate, my complaint is not the dying or the learn-by-experience. There have been plenty of games that put you up against a boss and you have to learn the tricks to defeating them. I just feel that, especially early on, the game imposes grind on this learning experience. If the first Dark Knight was close to a campfire without the many skeletons leading up to him, the time spend investigating him wouldn't have been such a drudge.

It's a game...

Right. Which means it should be fun! the challenges shouldn't generate frustration (this goes for a lot of games and by no means is a complaint exclusive to DS). DS has a fairly painful introduction which could be improved. Still, we're just going round in circles now so I'll leave it at that. Certainly I won't be interested in From's next game unless they change how they introduce new players to their game, and if that's a common attitude (like Joker?) then From will be forever capped at their current install base. They don't need to dumb the game down; just mellow the learning curve with more frequent save points and less losses early on, ramping up the difficulty as the player's understanding and skills have progressed to a suitable level. (Having said that it's unlikely I'll buy any non-arcadey RPGs as I haven't the time to sink into epics anyway!)

 

[Sigfried1977]

Right. Which means it should be fun!

I completely disagree with this. Nothing particularly fun about a game such as Silent Hill 2 for example, yet it still delivered one of the most memorable experiences I ever had in any game. It's really no different from movies. Well, at least I doubt any sane person thought Irreversible was a fun movie.

Doesn't mean I didn't have fun with Dark Souls, though. Love the combat in this game.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

By fun, I mean entertaining in that you want to play it. Not something you struggle through getting annoyed or frustrated because you hope later it'll reward you. Any challenge in a game has to be a positive one, not a negative one, although all too often the designers get it wrong.

 

[Carl B]

I think DS is just one of those polarizing games where you either love what the designers were going for, or you thought they got it wrong; the diametrically opposed reviews all over the net speak to as much. But for me, I'm one of the ones that love the formula, and if this type of game were to have the edge taken off of it, it would truly be a loss to the gaming world IMO, as presently these titles from From are the only ones occupying this very specific niche.

 

[Sigfried1977]

By fun, I mean entertaining in that you want to play it. Not something you struggle through getting annoyed or frustrated because you hope later it'll reward you. Any challenge in a game has to be a positive one, not a negative one, although all too often the designers get it wrong.

Well, I don't think they got it wrong. Not at all.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think DS is just one of those polarizing games where you either love what the designers were going for, or you thought they got it wrong; the diametrically opposed reviews all over the net speak to as much. But for me, I'm one of the ones that love the formula, and if this type of game were to have the edge taken off of it, it would truly be a loss to the gaming world IMO, as presently these titles from From are the only ones occupying this very specific niche.

Bit I've never, ever, ever, ever, ever said change the formula! Just how it's introduced. Keep the gameplay exactly as is, but introduce the game rules in a less punishing format with more a more forgiving start to let new players warm to the differences. Let the player learn from experience that some enemies need caution without the overhead of the repetitious elements. That way it wouldn't be as polarising, which will be good for the developer's bottom dollar and the franchise (more sales == more chance of a sequel), without changing the nature of the game.

If what I was suggesting would break the game then I could understand reservations, but I'm not really asking for that so I don't understand why some are opposed to being more...welcoming to new players.

 

[Cornsnake]

Demon's Souls became a cult hit largely because it was so difficult and unforgiving. Dark Souls builds on that success, and has been mostly well received by fans of Demon's Souls. And going by first week sales it seems to be doing rather well. Changing things, for better or worse, won't necessarily make it sell better.

The grind, very powerful enemies early on, are all part of why some people like it.

 

[Cornsnake]

Now that you have the guide, are you going to check out

Spoiler

Nito's Covenant

?

I remember it's one of the most obscure quests in the game.

It was going well without the guide, and keeping spoiling things for myself at a minimum. I'm going to try playing like that and discovering things for myself for now. I'll use guide mostly to have a good overview of all weapons, armors, and upgrades I want.

I assume I won't be able do everything in a single play through anyway. I can always use the guide to search out thing I've missed the second time. I'm pretty sure I'm missed the opportunity to some things already.

 

[patsu]

For the first Dark Knight encounter, I'll kill him on the 3rd try.

Spoiler

1st try, saw his back, From Software must use this to teach me back stabbing.... No, die in seconds
2nd try, pull out to open area and duel, found out that his swing attack over 180 degrees arc, die in 2 hits
3rd try, pull out and climb to roof top by ladder, and found out that "Dark Knight don't climb", as the ladder is only way to get to my place, he just wandering around my place, so I pryoflame he to death.

So Dark Knight rule no. 1, Dark Knight don't climb. ^-^

Pretty much how I did it !

Spoiler

That ladder should be there by design since this is the easiest way to kill the next boss too.

I felt sorry for the first 2 Dark Knights I cheesed using the same method. Just need to find a suitable

Spoiler

high ground and firebomb him to death

. One of his attacks could

Spoiler

reach high though if you don't climb high enough. I got killed twice because of his attacks

. The 3rd Dark Knight down in

Spoiler

Darkroot Basin

got the proper treatment. Beat him fair and square with

Spoiler

Drake Sword and Elite Knight armor

 

[patsu]

How does one teach a kid about spicy food and hot water ?

Except I'm not a child. You can't explain to a child what 'hot' means as they have no reference. Adults do, so we don't need learning by experience.

Furthermore, I reiterate, my complaint is not the dying or the learn-by-experience. There have been plenty of games that put you up against a boss and you have to learn the tricks to defeating them. I just feel that, especially early on, the game imposes grind on this learning experience. If the first Dark Knight was close to a campfire without the many skeletons leading up to him, the time spend investigating him wouldn't have been such a drudge.

Most people grind because they are preparing for the future/uncertainty. In the Souls worlds, adults are like children as they learn the new/broken rules of the world. That's why it's exciting to play.

If you're adventurous, it is possible to move ahead without grinding. A friend in the GAF XMB chatroom took on the final boss at level 31 without grinding. He picked his class, stats points, skills and tactics carefully. He used co-op to overcome difficult bosses earlier. Now he could 2 shot bosses, and kill people twice his levels in PvP.

Spoiler

High level magic and fire is super powerful.

Alternatively, another new friend in the chatroom grind in the

Spoiler

Darkroot Garden

until he's level 147 (!). He doesn't know what

Spoiler

Sen's Fortress

is, and what good weapon to use besides

Spoiler

Drake Sword

. But apparently, he loves the game.


The game is not so much difficult, but twisted. I think everyone of us who persist knows quietly that there is always a way out. We just need to find it. We are not here just because of the difficulty or the grind. It's kinda like a half full, half empty debate. To me, the difficult parts are there to hide the delights (like light and shadow)

 

[patsu]

I think DS is just one of those polarizing games where you either love what the designers were going for, or you thought they got it wrong; the diametrically opposed reviews all over the net speak to as much. But for me, I'm one of the ones that love the formula, and if this type of game were to have the edge taken off of it, it would truly be a loss to the gaming world IMO, as presently these titles from From are the only ones occupying this very specific niche.

I am wondering what Sony would do with Demon's Souls. That game was created with the help of Sony developers.

We're missing the fourth world, although arguably

Spoiler

Tomb of Giants

is in Dark Souls.

 

[patsu]

It was going well without the guide, and keeping spoiling things for myself at a minimum. I'm going to try playing like that and discovering things for myself for now. I'll use guide mostly to have a good overview of all weapons, armors, and upgrades I want.

I assume I won't be able do everything in a single play through anyway. I can always use the guide to search out thing I've missed the second time. I'm pretty sure I'm missed the opportunity to some things already.

The maps in the guide can be more confusing than the Dark Souls' world itself. ^_^

I only use it to see if I missed out anything (Found out I missed a small section in the Depth because I

Spoiler

fell down

).

The monster strategy section is not always correct. They made it sound harder sometimes.

The NPC section is useful if you want to locate the moving ones. The Covenant section is probably the most valuable section since I think there is at least one that is very very well hidden.

EDIT: I have been watching PvP videos recently. Some of the players look scary.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If you're adventurous, it is possible to move ahead without grinding. A friend in the GAF XMB chatroom took on the final boss at level 31 without grinding. He picked his class, stats points, skills and tactics carefully. He used co-op to overcome difficult bosses earlier. Now he could 2 shot bosses, and kill people twice his levels in PvP.

How did he know what skills to pick? How did he know to invest in high-level magic? How did he arrange coop to get through bosses early on?

The game is not so much difficult, but twisted. I think everyone of us who persist knows quietly that there is always a way out. We just need to find it. We are not here just because of the difficulty or the grind. It's kinda like a half full, half empty debate. To me, the difficult parts are there to hide the delights (like light and shadow)

Again, that doesn't change what I'm asking for -
"I think everyone of us who persist knows" - change the intro so the knowing comes with less persistence.

 

[patsu]

How did he know what skills to pick? How did he know to invest in high-level magic? How did he arrange coop to get through bosses early on?

He experimented with pyro-magic even though he started as a knight. The outcome was surprisingly good. So he continued to invest more points in it. I think FROM Software mentioned that pyromancer is beginner friendly too.

He's already familiar with Demon's Souls. And he only co-op'ed for the difficult bosses.

At the moment, many people already know magic is powerful due to word of mouth (and YouTube).

Again, that doesn't change what I'm asking for -
"I think everyone of us who persist knows" - change the intro so the knowing comes with less persistence.

The tutorial could be better (e.g.. how does bonfire, hollow work ?), but I don't think we want them to hand hold players throughout the game (e.g., pile up dead bodies behind Dark Knight to indicate danger). ^_^ The last thing we want is the whole (beginning) game world cramped full of warnings and instructions. ^_^

 

[patsu]

Nice ! Had a long run tonight.

Spoiler

Completed Blighttown, Great Hollow, and Ash Lake.

Opened New Londo Ruins shortcut from Blighttown.

Also acquired a decent level of pyromancer skills (3-4 times my Drake Sword damage now).

Will visit Quelaag's Domain next !

 

[Cornsnake]

The maps in the guide can be more confusing than the Dark Souls' world itself. ^_^

I only use it to see if I missed out anything (Found out I missed a small section in the Depth because I

Spoiler

fell down

).

The monster strategy section is not always correct. They made it sound harder sometimes.

The NPC section is useful if you want to locate the moving ones. The Covenant section is probably the most valuable section since I think there is at least one that is very very well hidden.

Yeah the maps quite confusing, especially when there are multiple floors. They way they handle enemy info is also awkward. One chapter for all the moves every enemy can do, a separate list for their stats and weaknesses, and another for the items they can drop.

It does hold a lot of good information though.

I'm at

Spoiler

Sen's Fortress

right now.

I tried killing the

Spoiler

Hellkite Dragon

again yesterday.

Spoiler

I ended up wasting a whole lot of arrows because that bitch can heal itself. And since it can heal faster then I can damage it, and because it can't be poisoned, I wasn't able to kill it.

 

[patsu]

I tried killing the

Spoiler

Hellkite Dragon

again yesterday.

Spoiler

I ended up wasting a whole lot of arrows because that bitch can heal itself. And since it can heal faster then I can damage it, and because it can't be poisoned, I wasn't able to kill it.

classic ! Just do it the cheap way. It takes a few seconds.

 

[Cornsnake]

The game gave me a real scare just now. I died, after which the game usually saves, and then everything goes black. We had a power outtage. It only lasted about 5 minutes, so immediately checked if my save wasn't corrupted. Thankfully it wasn't. But I did see myself died a second time as soon the game was loaded.

More on invasions.

Spoiler

It seems people just using the Darkroot Forest as for soul farming by killing the NPC and the invading phantoms. As result I'm often sent to invade high level players that can kill me very quickly. Doesn't really matter though, it's good practice, and I won't lose anything by dying. After a lot of deaths I finally killed a guy wearing Havel's armor by stabbing him in the back 3 times.

 

[patsu]

Yap ! The guy who farmed until level 147 basically has not left

Spoiler

Darkroot Garden

since he arrived there.

I've begun to collect data on weapons. Am looking at the YouTube PvP videos to see what suits me:
e.g.,

They are dueling outside some boss area (fog door is on). Since there are no monsters and no identifiable traits about the location. I don't consider it a spoiler.

There's another good one about Pyromancer vs Others. It convinced me to add Pyro as my secondary attack. But I can't find it for the moment.

 

[Cornsnake]

I've begun to collect data on weapons. Am looking at the YouTube PvP videos to see what suits me:

Which weapons did you like in Demon's Souls?

I'm glad to have my 4 Uchigatana's. Now I'm just waiting for some of the upgrade paths to be become available. Beyond that I like to use armor that allows for the fastest movement. And the Hollow Soldier Shield.