I don't think this is part of Japansese design but simply the genre. You always get the best loot in RPGs by working for it. Through quests, dungeons, tough enemies, etc.
There's definitely a difference. I've played my fair share of RPGs, and there's a distinct upper-tier in JRPGs that western titles lack. In western games (Sacred, Elder Scrolls, NWN, DnD derivatives, yadayada) the better gear comes with ordinary looting and quests and general progression. In JRPGs, you have the same basic loot structure of questing and looting, but you also have an upper eschelon of uber-gear that is only available after mammoth endeavour. And not even related to the game either. Things like collectathons are unique to JRPGs. Have you ever played a western RPG where to access a certain weapon or item you have to find and killl a certain number of every type of enemy including some insanely rare random encounters, requiring 15 hours in the same desert running into monsters for that 1 in 10 chance of meeting a Truncated Squash Billibong that you have a 1 in 10 chance of actually defeating and adding to your collection where you need three of the things?!
Well yes, that's not especially common in WRPGS..but I don't think there's too much of it in Dark Souls. Almost every enemy is always there all the time so you won't be running around for encounters. Item drop rates are fairly high too, and can be increased with items.
Mid game you get a weapon along the main path the eclipses most things you would have gotten at that point, even from secret areas. The main path is still quite rewarding.
I think we need to separate a few problems. Yes, there is some bad design in this game. Yes, it can be excessively cruel at times. But if you can't make it past the Undead Burg, that means you are doing it wrong. Which may also be the games fault for not explaining itself properly.
This is literally the training stage of the game. There are no super weapons here that can 1 hit kill the enemies, you won't even be able to upgrade your weapons at this point. The only way through here is to learn how the game mechanics works. Which work unlike most modern games.
Here you take it slowly. You'll want to draw the enemies out one at a time. Keep your shield up to block their first strike, or simply dodge it. Then strike back a few times while they recover. Repeat until they die. And all the while try to get behind them, lower your shield, then strike to initiate a backstab. For every enemy you need to find out step by step how you need to defeat them, and then do it exactly like that every single time. It's discipline, not skill.
The game forcing you to replay the same part over and over again is it forcing you to learn from your mistakes. And it only gets easier after opening up short-cuts, and mini bosses staying dead.
I doubt you'll even need to grind much once the ideal path to take is found out by the community. And once your able summon 2 other players into your game it becomes easier still.
There's definitely a difference. I've played my fair share of RPGs, and there's a distinct upper-tier in JRPGs that western titles lack. In western games (Sacred, Elder Scrolls, NWN, DnD derivatives, yadayada) the better gear comes with ordinary looting and quests and general progression. In JRPGs, you have the same basic loot structure of questing and looting, but you also have an upper eschelon of uber-gear that is only available after mammoth endeavour. And not even related to the game either. Things like collectathons are unique to JRPGs. Have you ever played a western RPG where to access a certain weapon or item you have to find and killl a certain number of every type of enemy including some insanely rare random encounters, requiring 15 hours in the same desert running into monsters for that 1 in 10 chance of meeting a Truncated Squash Billibong that you have a 1 in 10 chance of actually defeating and adding to your collection where you need three of the things?!
How about this then. You walk into an area your not supposed to go because the enemies are way too strong for you. Yet by being smart and careful you still make it through, and now you find something great. There few games that are that rewarding, and you don't even need to grind for it.
The fear to explore is there because you need to be afraid. It either makes you extra careful, or makes you find out you don't need to go there yet.
I'm really glad From had the balls to stick with their own particular vision in Dark Souls' case. It's not for everyone, but it was never meant to be, and that's its greatest strength for the people who love it.
I've played my fair share of RPGs, and there's a distinct upper-tier in JRPGs that western titles lack. In western games (Sacred, Elder Scrolls, NWN, DnD derivatives, yadayada) the better gear comes with ordinary looting and quests and general progression. In JRPGs, you have the same basic loot structure of questing and looting, but you also have an upper eschelon of uber-gear that is only available after mammoth endeavour.
I've always liked that aspect to the traditional JRPG though - the "ultimate dungeon." In Dark Souls I feel it's done even better from an integration standpoint, in that these places/things are built seamlessly into the world, triggered either by plot devices/choices or by above and beyond exploration. Sure... anyone can defeat the lords of the realm... but can you take on the ancient evil? Stuff like that - I go for it.
BUT, now thinking I am about to progress to the final chapter and being stopped up by reasons unknown, that I will grant is frustrating. Back to last night's question, after having thought about it some, I will ask only this:
for New Londo, is the key that operates the lift located inside, or outside, of New Londo? I'll proceed accordingly I suppose, on the assumption that completion of New Londo is non-optional.
for New Londo, is the key that operates the lift located inside, or outside, of New Londo? I'll proceed accordingly I suppose, on the assumption that completion of New Londo is non-optional.
I think we need to separate a few problems. Yes, there is some bad design in this game. Yes, it can be excessively cruel at times. But if you can't make it past the Undead Burg, that means you are doing it wrong. Which may also be the games fault for not explaining itself properly.
This is literally the training stage of the game. There are no super weapons here that can 1 hit kill the enemies, you won't even be able to upgrade your weapons at this point. The only way through here is to learn how the game mechanics works. Which work unlike most modern games.
I can agree with that. Combat is different, which I don't have a problem with. I like it, except I find the controls a bit awkward at times. To shoot a bow I have to select it with right arrow, then tap R1 to equip it before I can aim with L1. Then again I've only played a little, playing hotseat with friends. It's a game that has a fairly high price of entry I think.
The game forcing you to replay the same part over and over again is it forcing you to learn from your mistakes.
On the one hand I can agree with that. On the other, I think the balancing isn't quite right, or the training isn't progressive enough. Perhaps not having enemies respawn when you save at a campfire for the training area would mean less players getting scared off in the early moments?
Except from what little I've seen, you don't know the enemies are too strong until they've killed you a couple of times and you've had to grind back to those areas to pick up your dropped loot! That's perhaps the other big drawback to Dark Soul's system - losing your gear and having to go back to get it where you know it's not safe to do so. Eventually you learn sometimes it's just a cost to bare.
The fear to explore is there because you need to be afraid. It either makes you extra careful, or makes you find out you don't need to go there yet.
I can agree with that, also as a design philosophy. The issue I have with the current implementation is that you go into an unknown game design with a whole load of preconceptions from having played computer games for 30 years, and it's decidedly unclear what the rules are. There's a lack of communication that some enemies will be totally overpowering and must be avoided, versus years of experience of every level being balanced for your current character level in other games. It can be hanlded in a more forgiving way IMO. Morrowind had a sense of trepidation where you could be overpowered in encounters, and I would explore early caves ready to run away if needed, but without any anger or frustration at having my past 20+ minutes play undone because this one cave is different from the other 5 I had just visited. Yes, you learn eventually to be careful, but there are more supportive ways to treat people when educating them. It's in From software's best interests to better introduce their novel approach so they don't upset gamers.
I'll add that I still have no idea how to use magic. We've looked it up online and found no answers. There's a line in a stat that says it's needed for magic, and nothing else. Exploration for fun is giving people a safe place to find their own way with the necessary tools and resources; not dropping people unprepared into a desert or forest and leaving them to it!
I've always liked that aspect to the traditional JRPG though - the "ultimate dungeon." In Dark Souls I feel it's done even better from an integration standpoint, in that these places/things are built seamlessly into the world, triggered either by plot devices/choices or by above and beyond exploration. Sure... anyone can defeat the lords of the realm... but can you take on the ancient evil? Stuff like that - I go for it.
I don't mind tough areas. I'm in favour of extended difficulty. Are you really in favour of bug collections and massively repetitious, undocumented grind quests though? Bear in mind my original complaint against Dark Souls wasn't the difficulty or the encounters, but the item we found. It required a 'cheat' doing the same thing repeatedly with no indicator that it was acheiving any result, and no indicator you were supposed to try this, until you were rewarded for standing in the same place for 15 minutes shooting arrows. I suppose it's more of an Easter Egg, but it echoes my experience with JRPGs.
I can agree with that. Combat is different, which I don't have a problem with. I like it, except I find the controls a bit awkward at times. To shoot a bow I have to select it with right arrow, then tap R1 to equip it before I can aim with L1. Then again I've only played a little, playing hotseat with friends. It's a game that has a fairly high price of entry I think.
Using a bow is a bit awkward. And I think lock on for other is bugged when it comes to switching targets.
On the one hand I can agree with that. On the other, I think the balancing isn't quite right, or the training isn't progressive enough. Perhaps not having enemies respawn when you save at a campfire for the training area would mean less players getting scared off in the early moments?
The difficulty only becomes higher in later area. If a player can't beat an earlier area, they won't stand a chance in the later areas anyway.
Except from what little I've seen, you don't know the enemies are too strong until they've killed you a couple of times and you've had to grind back to those areas to pick up your dropped loot! That's perhaps the other big drawback to Dark Soul's system - losing your gear and having to go back to get it where you know it's not safe to do so. Eventually you learn sometimes it's just a cost to bare.
Do what I do. The first time I visit an area I draw the first enemies far enough back to where I came from so I won't have to fight them again to get my stuff back should I die.
I can agree with that, also as a design philosophy. The issue I have with the current implementation is that you go into an unknown game design with a whole load of preconceptions from having played computer games for 30 years, and it's decidedly unclear what the rules are. There's a lack of communication that some enemies will be totally overpowering and must be avoided, versus years of experience of every level being balanced for your current character level in other games. It can be hanlded in a more forgiving way IMO. Morrowind had a sense of trepidation where you could be overpowered in encounters, and I would explore early caves ready to run away if needed, but without any anger or frustration at having my past 20+ minutes play undone because this one cave is different from the other 5 I had just visited. Yes, you learn eventually to be careful, but there are more supportive ways to treat people when educating them. It's in From software's best interests to better introduce their novel approach so they don't upset gamers.
There really is no excuse for Dark Souls not having a proper tutorial. Especially since Demon's Souls had such a horrible tutorial, and they've made even less of an effort this time. Thankfully we have the internet.
I'll add that I still have no idea how to use magic. We've looked it up online and found no answers. There's a line in a stat that says it's needed for magic, and nothing else. Exploration for fun is giving people a safe place to find their own way with the necessary tools and resources; not dropping people unprepared into a desert or forest and leaving them to it!
There are a few requirements for magic. These are only the basic mechanics, but I'll spoiler it anyway.
You'll need to equip a pyromancy flame for pyromancy. A catalyst for sorcery, and a talisman for miracles.
You'll also need an attunement slot. The first you'll get when you raise your attunement to 10. For sorcery your intelligence also needs to be at least 10, and faith at least 10 for miracles. Stronger spells require even higher stats.
If you don't have a spell to begin with you'll either need to buy or find it. And then attune it at a bonfire.
Do what I do. The first time I visit an area I draw the first enemies far enough back to where I came from so I won't have to fight them again to get my stuff back should I die.
Sometimes that's not possible though. You enter a white doorway, meet a boss, and die. Then you have to fight your way back to that spot to try again, where maybe you get a chance to try a tactic on the boss before he kills you again. Then it's back through the grunts to get to the boss again, rinse and repeat until you finally work out the trick needed. Experiences like that polarise plays against other elements that are perhaps fairer if they were just understood (like that first Dark Knight).
You'll need to equip a pyromancy flame for pyromancy. A catalyst for sorcery, and a talisman for miracles.
You'll also need an attunement slot. The first you'll get when you raise your attunement to 10. For sorcery your intelligence also needs to be at least 10, and faith at least 10 for miracles. Stronger spells require even higher stats.
If you don't have a spell to begin with you'll either need to buy or find it. And then attune it at a bonfire.
Not far, somewhere in the Undead Burg. The game mechanics are just so frustrating to me, I didn't realize that when people said you will die over and over again that they meant you will literally die over and over and over again. The controls seem really clunky, like as a spell caster enemies can often lob stuff at you and yet you can't target them properly. Or you back up a bit too far and fall off a ledge and die. Or if you die and didn't use a campfire for a while because you didn't want the enemies to respawn then it puts you so far back that I wanted to punch a hole in the wall. Or that it seems like you have to go over the same parts of the game over and over again to figure out what to do. Or in a bout of utter ridiculousless of game design, I'm playing and someone adds me to party chat like is so common to do so we can all chat while playing our respective games, except Dark Souls abruptly ended my game when party chat started. What in hell was that, did they actually design it that way that purposely? That's just stupid. I dunno, the whole game was making my blood pressure rise that I had to step away from it and play something comparitively relaxing, like beating the bosses in Mega Man 1 or playing japanese version of Super Mario Bros 2.
If you don't use the bonfire, it means you don't level up, repair equipments or refuel your Estus Flasks. Unless you are already powerful, you will not progress far. ^_^
The respawned grunts are just opportunities for you to pick up Souls and skills before you meet the bosses. But if you're daring and high level enough, some guy dashed through the Catacomb and killed the boss there while a line of skeleton warriors chased behind him. He didn't even know where the boss was when he entered the Catacomb.
For the easiest way out...
Most of the bosses have weak points for you to cheese. Like Demon's Souls, ranged attacks like magic and fire spells are the safest. In fact, I heard spells are super powerful. Some advanced spells could 2 shot difficult bosses if you level up enough. You may need some good equipment and spells to protect yourself at the same time.
That's why I'm stocking up on magic too.
OTOH, some monsters are harder to fight from far. Once you're next to them, they become easier to take down, which means the magic user also should build up some basic melee skills.
The game is different from Mega Man type challenges simply because you have multiple ways to purge the monsters -- including cheesy methods -- and you can co-op.
Sometimes that's not possible though. You enter a white doorway, meet a boss, and die. Then you have to fight your way back to that spot to try again, where maybe you get a chance to try a tactic on the boss before he kills you again. Then it's back through the grunts to get to the boss again, rinse and repeat until you finally work out the trick needed. Experiences like that polarise plays against other elements that are perhaps fairer if they were just understood (like that first Dark Knight).
Yes, but we have clues left by in-game messages. We also have good community support to figure out the easiest way to deal with the bad guys. Later in the game, we will have much better equipments and abilities.
However I heard a few late stage maps are too cruel. Rumor is that FROM will resolve these difficulty issues in the next patch.
I'm summoned pretty quickly to kill someone invading the forest. And I also see another player being summoned. As soon as I arrive in his world I see him being chased by the other friendly phantom, and several other friendly NPC's. I join the chase, and keep running after him throughout the forest until he finally hits a dead end. Now I'm the only one left because he managed to lose all the other pursuers.
We start fighting and I'm doing very little damage against him. Like me he used very light armor, so he probably is a lot higher level then me. But I am wearing him down slowly. Just as I have his health reduced to half the other friendly phantom joins in and almost kills him with a single pyromancy spell.
On his last health our enemy starts running again, and we are back in close pursuit. Just before he reaches a boss battle, which probably would have allowed him to escape us, my friend fires up another pyromancy spell, and I make a running stab. Someone hits and our enemy is defeated. Only the person making the kill gets the rewards. Which was me.
Awesome stuff. I really like the unique situations this mix of single and multiplayer provides.
Which are random and limited in what they can say. I've yet to encounter any that was any use, save one that said "secret turning left" followed by another "here". It was random that that showed up in our game though. Someone else playing might get another message, like "Praise the Sun" (at first I thought that was a clue, and went through gestures when looking at the sun in case it gave some buff. That's the problem when you don't know what is a clue and what isn't!). And the mechanics for leaving messages and rating them is too cumbersome.
We also have good community support to figure out the easiest way to deal with the bad guys.
Which I feel proves my point. To learn how to play a Japanese game, you have to have the guide or visit forums, etc. I feel Japanese developers aren't very good at explaining things about their games!
after a marathon play until the early morning, I have now found a fourth covenant which I joined
the Forest Hunters, but as my behind was handed to me in no time as I autoinvaded I have switched back to the Way of the White.
, and then left. Hope I do not get any big penalties (even though I have not noticed any).
Two covenants (the above mentioned included, as I walked past it at least once while trying to get, to no avail, further in this area) I would probably never found without messages, so I am very glad that there are users who help (altough, I had many "jump here" - only to die messages too).
BTW, thanks all for your spoilers/comments, it had already happened to me before I even read about it here (being "Yurted"), so .
But one sad thing happened, I had to kill "good old"
Patches. I answered that I am an cleric and he did not like the answer. As in Demon's Souls he was the only one to sell the best arrows (or was it bolts?), who knows what I have missed. Luckily I missed the M'lady with my roll, while escaping from the hollowed soldier that accompanied her (I could only kill them with the poison Pyromancy spell, they were way to hard to kill at the same time for me without that help), else I would have missed a miracle from her.
And as we are discussing the design decisions, I think Dark Souls makes way too many mistakes for a sequel (because, let's face it, it is a sequel to Demon's Souls, many assets are virtually the same). I find it great to have a veil of mistery, but there are too many mistakes as if the memory of the device cannot handle more text. If I join an covenant, I want to have at least explained their philosophy, what they except etc., for the last one I encoutered it was perfectly done, for the first you can find the in the game I read about it before the game was released (not that it matters much as there is not much to spoil, but in game there was nothing explained, not to mention my Knight was already in it (every Knight is automatically in it) and "he, as the character" obviously also has no idea what he is already part of, as me, as the player, has no idea).
But one thing I really need to give them props for, the really have an great imagination, no boring and 1000 times seen things. Especially when I look how watered down Oblivion was compared to Morrowind (story wise too), I tend to respect these kind of stories even more (even though I still like Demon's Souls backstory more).
I am playing with my old "block with the shield then hit tactic/then use miracles and certain items to heal", but I really do not know how people manage to get through certain cliff/very dark areas, where you cannot roll around to avoid hard hitting enemies with your thief/mage character with small/no shield.
When I finish the game I cannot wait to try completely different tactics (e.g. magic which I am ignoring, poison weapons etc.)... With my current build I really need to raise Vitality and Endurance as both are very low for my level and even normal peons can get me into trouble if I do not block properly.
I'm summoned pretty quickly to kill someone invading the forest. And I also see another player being summoned. As soon as I arrive in his world I see him being chased by the other friendly phantom, and several other friendly NPC's. I join the chase, and keep running after him throughout the forest until he finally hits a dead end. Now I'm the only one left because he managed to lose all the other pursuers.
We start fighting and I'm doing very little damage against him. Like me he used very light armor, so he probably is a lot higher level then me. But I am wearing him down slowly. Just as I have his health reduced to half the other friendly phantom joins in and almost kills him with a single pyromancy spell.
On his last health our enemy starts running again, and we are back in close pursuit. Just before he reaches a boss battle, which probably would have allowed him to escape us, my friend fires up another pyromancy spell, and I make a running stab. Someone hits and our enemy is defeated. Only the person making the kill gets the rewards. Which was me.
Awesome stuff. I really like the unique situations this mix of single and multiplayer provides.
Which are random and limited in what they can say. I've yet to encounter any that was any use, save one that said "secret turning left" followed by another "here". It was random that that showed up in our game though. Someone else playing might get another message, like "Praise the Sun" (at first I thought that was a clue, and went through gestures when looking at the sun in case it gave some buff. That's the problem when you don't know what is a clue and what isn't!). And the mechanics for leaving messages and rating them is too cumbersome.
I felt the same at first. But there are a few critical ones that change the game or turn the table. So I read them more now !
Which I feel proves my point. To learn how to play a Japanese game, you have to have the guide or visit forums, etc. I feel Japanese developers aren't very good at explaining things about their games!
Yeah they can do better with the "teaching" part. But one of the key elements is the game discovery and self discovery. They can't be done by narration or tutorials properly. Some of the imaginative/creative stuff are also too time consuming or convoluted to explain.
I know it's multiple players that can be summoned by Alvina to attack the same player entering the forest. And I imagine that player could also have summoned 2 phantoms to help him. Which would be quite an interesting fight between all these players and NPC's.
It's only players in human form that Alvina summons phantoms to attack.
Yeah they can do better with the "teaching" part. But one of the key elements is the game discovery and self discovery. They can't be done by narration or tutorials properly.
No, and it shouldn't be spelled out. Just that the ground rules should be explained. Tell the player that there'll be bad guys they won't be able to fight just yet. Give sufficient warning, like a load of dead bodies leading up to the first Dark Knight. I applaud DS's attempt to make things more mysterious, but now the games industry has to find a happy half-way house where it's not predictable like Elder Scrolls or Baldur's Gate, but not confusing and painful like a Japanese creation! Sadly I don't think that'll happen. I doubt the West will go with anything new and daring for fear of alienating their core users, and I doubt the Japanese will change their methods as they haven't proven very adaptable as tech has progressed (see big black dialogue blocks with non-proportionallly space text a la the 8 bit era for proof of that!). TBH I'd expect something better suited to be vague yet better explained to come from some unknown Euro dev in Romania or Slovakia or Poland, but there's so little financial backing these days I hold little hope.
