Dark Souls

[Cornsnake]

I just went on a little shopping spree. I now have 4 Uchigatana's.

No, and it shouldn't be spelled out. Just that the ground rules should be explained. Tell the player that there'll be bad guys they won't be able to fight just yet. Give sufficient warning, like a load of dead bodies leading up to the first Dark Knight.

Ideally there should be bloodstains on the floor showing you how that player died. Although I haven't found bloodstains to be as useful as in Demon's Souls.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That whole online aspect seems a bit anaemic relative to the number of players. If there are thousands of people playing this at any given moment, surely there'd be loads of bloodstains and tags? Then again, maybe spread throughout different points in the game it's just too diluted. That said, if From were hoping to leave other player's experiences as the pointers, that was a dangerous gamble. Firstly, it assumed enough players active to make it work. Secondly, it assumes players are playing online. Thirdly, it'd represent a changing experience. some players would see bloodstains and avoid a conflict. Other players would follow behind palyers who evaded the traps and not get the same clues, so become victims themselves.

It was worth trying, but I think there are lessons to be learnt and this D*** Souls online experience should at the very least be backed with some more classical guides and hints.

 

[Cornsnake]

Well there always player that don't want to avoid conflict. And soon as someone dies there will be a new bloodstain for others to find. Besides, you can't always expect the game to provide ample warming about what's ahead. Players still need to figure things out for themselves. If something looks dangerous, it probably is.

There should be a code to download a small part of a guide included with the game. I don't know how useful it is though, because I haven't bothered with it myself.

 

[Carl B]

Then I'll only say this.

Cornsnake you're killing me.

So I went through every single square inch

Spoiler

of NL *again*, and desperate,

I turned to the Internet... answers led me eventually to the realization that it wasn't anything there I needed,

Spoiler

I just simply hadn't seen the path in AL to progress the game.

Thank you for answering my question though, you may have thought I was deeper into the original level in question.

 

[Carl B]

And as we are discussing the design decisions, I think Dark Souls makes way too many mistakes for a sequel (because, let's face it, it is a sequel to Demon's Souls, many assets are virtually the same). I find it great to have a veil of mistery, but there are too many mistakes as if the memory of the device cannot handle more text. If I join an covenant, I want to have at least explained their philosophy, what they except etc., for the last one I encoutered it was perfectly done, for the first you can find the in the game I read about it before the game was released (not that it matters much as there is not much to spoil, but in game there was nothing explained, not to mention my Knight was already in it (every Knight is automatically in it) and "he, as the character" obviously also has no idea what he is already part of, as me, as the player, has no idea).

But one thing I really need to give them props for, the really have an great imagination, no boring and 1000 times seen things. Especially when I look how watered down Oblivion was compared to Morrowind (story wise too), I tend to respect these kind of stories even more (even though I still like Demon's Souls backstory more).

I am quite fond of the story actually - I feel it is a bit more expansive and allows for more of a 'whole world' feel, with glimpses into distant lands and lore. Demon's Souls had a story that was extremely complimentary to the atmospherics of the game though, and I did like that story as well. I actually play with a pen and paper so that I can write down story and plot elements as they come up, since I know important information/backstory is almost *never* repeated by an NPC twice.

As for covenants, I do agree that some more upfront info would be helpful, but honestly it's not hard to get a sense for what they're about, and it's classic DS for better or worse. My problem is that there's a covenant I think I rather join, but I'm not *allowed* to leave my present covenant, and I don't want to be one of those that have betrayed the gods.

 

[Carl B]

Give sufficient warning, like a load of dead bodies leading up to the first Dark Knight.

Nah, let them try and die! There's always running away...

I feel this game fills such a void in the genre that I hope it turns into a regular release, like a modern day Final Fantasy incarnation, where FF's when they first hit were a huge success, and each game that followed was both the same and always different. I could use Demon's Souls for many years to come.

 

[Cornsnake]

Now that I think about it, I remember reviews mentioning that there were places in the game you needed to go, but where hidden by the level design.

I haven't had any problems like that so far. But now I know what to expect when I go there.

 

[patsu]

No, and it shouldn't be spelled out. Just that the ground rules should be explained. Tell the player that there'll be bad guys they won't be able to fight just yet. Give sufficient warning, like a load of dead bodies leading up to the first Dark Knight. I applaud DS's attempt to make things more mysterious, but now the games industry has to find a happy half-way house where it's not predictable like Elder Scrolls or Baldur's Gate, but not confusing and painful like a Japanese creation! Sadly I don't think that'll happen. I doubt the West will go with anything new and daring for fear of alienating their core users, and I doubt the Japanese will change their methods as they haven't proven very adaptable as tech has progressed (see big black dialogue blocks with non-proportionallly space text a la the 8 bit era for proof of that!). TBH I'd expect something better suited to be vague yet better explained to come from some unknown Euro dev in Romania or Slovakia or Poland, but there's so little financial backing these days I hold little hope.

Come on, even evil people like to keep their quarters clean. That's basic hygiene except for creatures who love that sort of food. XD

The Dark Knights look so stylish. It would be a shame if they left piles of bodies around with flies everywhere. I think it's great to find powerful enemies with their back facing you intentionally. It's like what the Two Best Friends said, "There is a rule when you see an enemy exposing his back in a long corridor: you run away"

The new lesson here is

Spoiler

they put in a more persistent path finding code so that he would chase you all the way back to the bonfire, may be even further. So people who tempt fate will get what they deserve. ^_^

A lot of things in the game is about being street smart. You either leave things alone, or run to a safe place. But you have to observe the terrain first since the no-brainer, run-back-to-bonfire approach doesn't always work.

If they have to build extra hints for Dark Knights alone, they would have to build these warnings all over the entire Lordran since everything is dangerous here. A grunt may have some critical hit skills that can kill you too.

 

[patsu]

That whole online aspect seems a bit anaemic relative to the number of players. If there are thousands of people playing this at any given moment, surely there'd be loads of bloodstains and tags? Then again, maybe spread throughout different points in the game it's just too diluted. That said, if From were hoping to leave other player's experiences as the pointers, that was a dangerous gamble. Firstly, it assumed enough players active to make it work. Secondly, it assumes players are playing online. Thirdly, it'd represent a changing experience. some players would see bloodstains and avoid a conflict. Other players would follow behind palyers who evaded the traps and not get the same clues, so become victims themselves.

It was worth trying, but I think there are lessons to be learnt and this D*** Souls online experience should at the very least be backed with some more classical guides and hints.

Yeah patch 1.04 is supposed to adjust the online system, in particular the player summon subsystem.

 

[patsu]

Cornsnake you're killing me.

So I went through every single square inch

Spoiler

of NL *again*, and desperate,

I turned to the Internet... answers led me eventually to the realization that it wasn't anything there I needed,

Spoiler

I just simply hadn't seen the path in AL to progress the game.

Thank you for answering my question though, you may have thought I was deeper into the original level in question.

Are you looking for the

Spoiler

New Londo[strike]n[/strike] Ruins

key ?

If so, it's in

Spoiler

Blighttown

Don't invade me if I got it wrong !

I told the chatroom folks if they invaded Larry Ellison's or patsu's Lordran accidentally, please leave a few precious items behind and leave politely.

 

[Carl B]

Well, I'm not going to read your spoilers, since things are already under control over in my world. You're either referring to what I was talking about, or you're referring to something else!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The new lesson here is

Spoiler

they put in a more persistent path finding code so that he would chase you all the way back to the bonfire, may be even further. So people who tempt fate will get what they deserve. ^_^

A lot of things in the game is about being street smart. You either leave things alone, or run to a safe place. But you have to observe the terrain first since the no-brainer, run-back-to-bonfire approach doesn't always work.

Sure. But then how does the game go about explaning this to the players? Every expectation from every other game is that you can try things out and run away, or that things will be levelled such that they are beatable. DS introduces impossible enemies and then as you explore, whacks you with death and repetitious grind to back to that place to try again. It's only after an hour of going over the same path and encountering the Dark Knight to be repeatedly killed* (an hour in time, but only a half dozen attempts as there's all those skeletons to slog through, and trips to the shop to buy arrows) that the game's particularly dynamic is revealed.

Do you really think this is the best way to go about it? That From software will be making themselves a lot more friends than they would if the pre-game areas cleverly explained all this before hand, so the player could play according the more realistic rules and be wary of a great big knight up front without having to get killed and restart so many times?

*

Spoiler

Attempt 1: Approach knight, hit him in the back for a 'backstab' bonus, run down corridor, trapped and killed
Attempt 2 : Try again but miss with the swing, get killed
Attempt 3 : Run too quickly in the approach so he turns before you get a hit. Dead
Attempt 4 : Try shooting him in the head from a safe distance, run all the way back to the campfire, expecting him to give up the chase like all the other enemy and every other game, and get killed
Attempt 5 : Try luring him back to space and fight him properly, hand-to-hand, relying on skill, and get killed
Attempt 6 : Try that again hoping this time you'll fight better. Get killed
Attempt 7 : Try lightning juice, a big hit backstab, retreat to the open and fight. Get killed.
Attempt 8 : Try a firebomb, then lightning juice yadayaday death
Attempt 9 : Realise this isn't going to work and this past hour of killing those same skeletons over and over has been a bit of a waste of time...

That's pretty much how my experience went. I'm sure it was longer than an hour too.

 

[Cornsnake]

You don't have kill that Black Knight.

This game has been advertised with the line "Prepare to Die". And has been constantly referred to by the devs as more difficult then Demon's Souls. A suitable challenge should be expected.

 

[patsu]

Sure. But then how does the game go about explaning this to the players?

How does one teach a kid about spicy food and hot water ?

I could tell them time and time again that they are "dangerous" but some still could not get it until they tried it for themselves. ^_^

It's a game, but Demon's Souls and Dark Souls are pretty good at conveying a sense of danger and urgency to the player.

 

[patsu]

Well, I'm not going to read your spoilers, since things are already under control over in my world. You're either referring to what I was talking about, or you're referring to something else!

Heh heh, so you are hunting in NLR already ?

Oh how I wish I can play Dark Souls during weekends. 8^(

 

[Carl B]

Heh heh, so you are hunting in NLR already ?

Well, more a function of my having turned to the Internet for a decisive answer on that after going down Cornsnake's road of "the key is there." Right advice, wrong time!

Spoiler

I actually am not "down there" as yet, as I got diverted on other efforts, but will be imminently. I ran down all available transient curses to such an extent in my previous exploration missions - to the point where the undead merchant is out of ones to sell! (didn't even think that was possible) - that I took the opportunity to trade with another player in a pvp situation yesterday. Traded some twinkling titanite (which seems the hot commodity) for all the transient curses I will ever need and a bunch of lesser titanite, as well as some surplus souls.

As I didn't read your spoilers above though... I only assume that this is along the lines of what you were referring to... I could be completely off!

 

[patsu]

Now that I think about it, I remember reviews mentioning that there were places in the game you needed to go, but where hidden by the level design.

I haven't had any problems like that so far. But now I know what to expect when I go there.

Now that you have the guide, are you going to check out

Spoiler

Nito's Covenant

?

I remember it's one of the most obscure quests in the game.

 

[patsu]

Well, more a function of my having turned to the Internet for a decisive answer on that after going down Cornsnake's road of "the key is there." Right advice, wrong time!

Spoiler

I actually am not "down there" as yet, as I got diverted on other efforts, but will be imminently. I ran down all available transient curses to such an extent in my previous exploration missions - to the point where the undead merchant is out of ones to sell! (didn't even think that was possible) - that I took the opportunity to trade with another player in a pvp situation yesterday. Traded some twinkling titanite (which seems the hot commodity) for all the transient curses I will ever need and a bunch of lesser titanite, as well as some surplus souls.

As I didn't read your spoilers above though... I only assume that this is along the lines of what you were referring to... I could be completely off!

Spoiler

Yeah the merchant in the depth sold all his lightning resins to me. It was a small wtf moment when I realized I couldn't get more.

It gives new perspective on the game world and its economy.

I am kinda nervous now. Low on supplies. Will need to find another route out of there so that I can stock up on other items to push forward.

Quite frankly, this game has made other titles seem less important to me. It's like Demon's Souls vs Uncharted 2. After playing the Souls game, I wondered if I could enjoy U2 at all. Now it's doing the same thing to U3 and other games.

 

[Carl B]

Quite frankly, this game has made other titles seem less important to me. It's like Demon's Souls vs Uncharted 2. After playing the Souls game, I wondered if I could enjoy U2 at all. Now it's doing the same thing to U3 and other games.

Believe me I know what you mean.

 

[Wahz]

For the first Dark Knight encounter, I'll kill him on the 3rd try.

Spoiler

1st try, saw his back, From Software must use this to teach me back stabbing.... No, die in seconds
2nd try, pull out to open area and duel, found out that his swing attack over 180 degrees arc, die in 2 hits
3rd try, pull out and climb to roof top by ladder, and found out that "Dark Knight don't climb", as the ladder is only way to get to my place, he just wandering around my place, so I pryoflame he to death.

So Dark Knight rule no. 1, Dark Knight don't climb. ^-^