Current Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post launch 2021] [XBSX, PS5]

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by pjbliverpool, Feb 9, 2021.

  1. function

    function None functional
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    I'm sure that ML is going to be mega important going forwards, but because I know so little about the mechanics of how you make it work, I'm trying not to get myself too hyped too early. Like you, I've not seen anything for XSX beyond the reduced precision data formats.

    With mesh shaders, those super impressive benchmark results are probably worst case type scenarios to stress this particular area of performance (for benching purposes, naturally!). In a real game you'd probably be looking at much smaller gains as you're so frequently bottlenecked in other areas. Googling around I found this Nvidia page on mesh shaders (I didn't read it all), but there is this paragraph near the start:

    https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/using-mesh-shaders-for-professional-graphics/

    "Keep in mind that mesh shaders are deliberately designed to expand existing capabilities and allow you to optimize certain use cases. They are not meant to replace the existing geometry pipeline completely. Due to the existing optimizations in the traditional VTG (vertex-, tessellation-, and geometry-shader) pipeline, do not expect mesh shader pipelines to always provide substantial wins in performance."

    Anyway, hopefully PS5 has something similar. Primitive shaders on their own wouldn't seem to me to be able to do everything described with mesh shaders, but that's most definitely my "not a pro" opinion. And even if that's true, PS5 might go beyond anything we've seen described by AMD.

    I guess it could depend on what kind of shader driven geometry you can push into the hardware rasteriser....? :???:
     
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  2. manux

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    Mesh shaders to me is one of those things that should make current gen awesome once engines are upgraded to take advantage of the hardware. Similarly I believe ray tracing can be a game changer this gen once the best ways to build all new engines are figured out. Heavy reuse of rays, very smart distribution of ray budget and much improved noise filtering would be the things I'm looking forward to this gen. And of course the unreal5 could be current gen game changer as well. I have high hopes metro exodus enhanced edition would be one of the first games really using ray tracing to max.Temporal algorithms to improve perceived quality is another thing I'm expecting to happen this gen.

    It would be kind of sad if next gen is just faster ray tracing hw. Much faster ray tracing hw is something I think can happen if it's focus of next gen instead of ray tracing being an additional cheap feature tagged along existing hw. I'm hoping neural nets or some other new algorithms would produce giant jump in rendering quality. Of course it's so unproven that I wouldn't bet anything on it. Maybe it's unreal5 that is the giant jump. In that case we will see the jump during this gen already :)
     
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  3. thicc_gaf

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    Actually I don't think the new games are leveraging most Series X or PS5 features at all. We know most Series games aren't using DirectStorage, for example, because DirectStorage isn't even available yet on PC and these are mainly cross-gen games with PC ports in mind, so no need to develop them with features like DirectStorage in mind, yet.

    Most games are barely using hardware features like VRS, either. Same can be said of the cache scrubbers in PS5, tho I'm not 100% sure how those actually work (i.e are they something that automate themselves or do developers have to target use of them. I'm guessing if the latter they would have to use demand scrubbing; given the scrubbers are in the caches IIRC devs would have to issue the command to scrub cache from the frontend of GPU).
    Any ideas on what type of hardware would need to go into an embedded design for neural network support? I read somewhere that there's a memory technology that was being tested for use as array representations of neural networks. I can't recall where I first read about this, but doing a quick search I came across this research document testing MRAM-DIMA:
    http://shanbhag.ece.illinois.edu/publications/ADP_ISCAS_MRAM_2019.pdf

    It's meant to be a physical implementation of a DNN as opposed to a digital one, and give better performance. Technologies like MRAM show a lot of promise and companies like Everspin already produce chips of...decent capacities (if a few 4 MB is considered decent), though prices are still prohibitive. Maybe as costs come down on technologies like MRAM or FRAM, we can see more of it in embedded console designs for DNNs?

    Although I was also thinking to some extent FPGA logic could be integrated into embedded console designs and you can leverage LUT RAM and BRAM there and configure the logic cells to replicate DNNs physically (among other uses). I don't know exactly how "powerful" (I guess in terms of logic cell count) of FPGA slices/cores/whatever you would need for this to be done.

    I think PS5 should be capable of things vaguely similar to Mesh Shaders with its Primitive Shaders, but clear and away better? No. I try keeping in mind that in all likelihood, Sony started development on PS5 earlier than Microsoft did the Series systems, which means things like deciding between the Primitive Shaders (which IIRC AMD could not get functioning properly in Vega, hence why they retooled with Mesh Shaders, that way they could get certified as being DX12-compliant) or Mesh Shaders would've came up likely early on.

    Basically, if Sony came up with some crazy stuff for Primitive Shaders, would AMD not have had enough time to look at that and try bringing that into RDNA 2 GPUs via the Mesh Shaders? I get that Sony and Microsoft had their own separate AMD teams helping to design their systems, but AMD had been working on RDNA 2 for a while by the time core aspects of PS5's design were being wrapped up. Or maybe it'd of been too late to go back in on RDNA 2 design blueprints and work in customizations Sony did with Primitive Shaders into the batch of GPUs which've since been launched?

    In any case, I think whatever Sony have done with their Primitive Shaders should be good enough to bring general performance parity in terms of feature support with the Mesh Shaders, tho some of it might have to come in through the Geometry Engine as well. But I'm not expecting customizations on the Primitive Shaders front a generation ahead of things already on the market; when Cerny spoke of GPUs bearing witness to fruitful collaborative efforts coming to market, his timeline seemed focused on RDNA 2 GPUs, not necessarily RDNA 3 ones. Though since RDNA 3 will repurpose a lot of features designed for RDNA 2, on a technical level they would be correct ;)
     
    #203 thicc_gaf, Feb 22, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021
  4. manux

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    Very fast large matrix multiplications + memory bandwidth to feed the beast. If one believes Keller then add graph support on top of that. I find jim keller's current work fascinating: https://www.tenstorrent.com/
     
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  5. Nisaaru

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    There is a really great interview with Keller and Lex Friedman from last week.
     
  6. goonergaz

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    Regarding PS5 I/O and cache scrubbers, I'm pretty certain Cerny was saying it’s all automatic and the devs don’t even need to understand, just say ‘I want that data put there’ and it just works.

    This is why I was thinking PS5 is showing advantages in some scenarios vs XSX where devs need to utilise the functionality.
     
    #206 goonergaz, Feb 22, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021
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  7. manux

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    I linked that interview on the previous page of this discussion already. It was a good podcast.
     
  8. chris1515

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    Better comparison between Zen 2 Desktop FPU and PS5 FPU

     
  9. snc

    snc
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    few more photos and it turns out ps5 cpu has more registers and 256bit operatins than zen2 ;d
     
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  10. Tabris

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  11. Vega86

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    How many cpus or threads does the OS use for the ps5 and series?
     
  12. liams

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    for xbox a single core from the 8 is reserved for OS use, so the games get 7 cores. I dont know the specifics of what the ps5 does but I would imagine its the same
     
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  13. BRiT

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  14. RagnarokFF

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    Talk about mesh shaders :runaway:
     
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  15. BRiT

    BRiT (>• •)>⌐■-■ (⌐■-■)
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  16. Deto

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  17. Proelite

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  18. Deto

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    information on who makes the chips and their dates.
     
  19. Tabris

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    They have detailed report on PS5/XSX/PS5 co-processor, 40 pages each, but only for yearly subscriptions.
    Some interesting notes is that the southbridge of PS5 is 26.7mm2@12nm, which PS4 Pro is just 25.9mm2@28nm.
     
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