Current Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[snc]

I heard the Xbox API is late and less efficient than PS5 API for the moment. This is probably a better explanation and it means there is a bigger improvement possible on Xbox API than PS5 API. It means one day the XSX will have the upper hand.

If in 4/6 years the situation is the same, this is ok. We can say it is a proof before this is not the case.

not best api is good explanation for xsx perf but also first games doesn't show bandwidth lacking on ps5

 

[j^aws]

There's nothing surprising in these results. Most of the needed information is out there in the public domain, and most didn't analyse it enough, which is why most are surprised.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Multiply that cost bybthe number of devices you sell and then you see how much profit you lose.

I doubt they will sell less due to the 448 vs 560 bandwidth thing.

Sure, but if the past has shown, the PS5 will sell more than the XBSX/XBSS combined. That said, your normal joe on the street might see 560GB/s displayed all over the XBox show but then watch reviews like DF and then have pause for concern about which box to buy.

I'm talking the normal joe here and not the fanboy. That said, the normal Joe might just well buy a PC.

Back to the bandwidth, is having 16GB of streamlined 448GBps memory going to hinder the PS5 compared to 10GB 560GBps & 6GB 336GBps. Again if listening to developers talk, some said that having the split memory could be an issue if the GPU runs riot on the 10GB portion. That's not me saying the 10GB is a problem, but actual developers saying it could be a problem.

 

[AbsoluteBeginner]

So going by AMDs slide

Power per compute unit for 1825MHz is ~1.4 while for 2.2GHz it is around 2.

This would mean total wattage for CUs for XSX is around 72W, while for PS5 it is 79W.

It would mean that Sony sacrificed TFs for some of the goodies high clocks provide, while MS did the opposite. To be precise, they were forced to do exactly what they did when they decided on 52CU chip at around 200W. Raise that to 230-240W constant like PS5 power delivery, and MS would deliver ~13.5TF console.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Maybe I missed it but other than the internet warriors, did MS ever say this? I know they did with the X1X but I haven't seen it with the XSX.

Haha, they changed it. Now it's the most powerful Xbox.

https://www.xbox.com/en-GB/consoles/xbox-series-x

What you need to know

• The Xbox Series X is Microsoft's upcoming next-generation console.
• Today, Microsoft confirmed a few key details about the device.
• Instead of calling it the most powerful Xbox, the team is now saying it's "the most-powerful gaming console."
• Senua's Saga: Hellblade II will also be built on Unreal Engine 5.

https://www.windowscentral.com/micr...onsole-confirms-hellblade-ii-senuas-saga-runs

The most powerful console ever
Re-engineered from the inside out
Designed for speed and performance
Amazing graphical fidelity

https://twitter.com/x/status/1270809430091677696

Summary

• As we launch into a new generation of gaming with Xbox Series X, we see a future where you’re instantly absorbed in your games and worlds are even more lifelike, immersive, responsive, and surprising. This detailed post contains everything we’ve shared so far about Xbox Series X and the future of Xbox. Keep this post bookmarked; we’ll update here as we make more announcements over time.
• Xbox Series X, the most powerful gaming console, empowers developers to deliver on their creative visions and dreams. It packs an unprecedented 12 teraflops of GPU power and enables new technologies and features like hardware-accelerated Direct X raytracing, variable rate shading, framerates up to 120 fps, and Quick Resume for multiple games, all of which cumulatively will deliver a new level of fidelity, immediacy, precision and accuracy never before seen in console gaming.

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/06...ocid=Platform_soc_omc_xbo_tw_Video_lrn_6.10.2

 

[Globalisateur]

Why I set me to disappointement ? I will have a PS5, if the console had infinite cache the narrow and fast would probably work and better than on PC with dev been able to optimize the code around infinity cache usage. My problem with the PS5 is not the frequency, continuous boost, or the number of CU or the Tflops. This is the memory bandwidth of only 448 GB/s. The PS4 Pro biggest weakness is the memory bandwidth. The PS5 share the same bandwidth than a 2080 or a 5700/5700 XT between the CPU, GPU, the tempest engine and the SSD.

Cache is good but you need to access memory to take the data and XSX cache is slower but the quantity is the same. When you need to access main memory and it will be a bottleneck much faster on PS5. If the interleaved memory is use correctly XSX has probably around 20% more memory bandwidth than PS5. Maybe this is part of the problem with API been inefficient with the XSX memory architecture.

But the results show a different story. In AC the 2 scenes displaying the biggest gap (20-30%) seem to be both CPU and GPU limited (because in a big game like this with DRS the GPU is constantly pushed).

PS5 could somehow have less problem of bandwidth when both CPU and GPU are used. Don't forget XSX has its own specific unique (and rather untested) memory solution. Many have theorized that it could lower the available bandwidth (more than usual) if both CPU and GPU were heavily used simultaneously.

 

[BillSpencer]

Is it possible to deduct from the power draw if the final retail units are in fact currently downclocked?
I looked at all the game comparisons and it appears the PS5 has a solid 20% performance lead in a lot of situations, PS5 should be 20% weaker so the 40% performance delta cannot be attributed to bad MS SDK tools only, I believe the Series X is probably downclocked 30% compared to what was marketed earlier.

 

[AbsoluteBeginner]

Guys, lets wait and see. No point in console warring this early in gen, many things can change

While results are certainly surprising, what is equally surprising is how good XSX SSD performs. Its extremely close to faster, more brute approach from Sony (although that will probably change in future as well).

 

[chris1515]

Guys, lets wait and see. No point in console warring this early in gen, many things can change

While results are certainly surprising, what is equally surprising is how good XSX SSD performs. Its extremely close to faster, more brute approach from Sony (although that will probably change in future as well).

This is not console warring, I will buy a PS5 and not an XSX. I prefer Sony exclusive game. I need proof and on paper XSX is a bit more powerful and devs hint for months than PS5 API is more performant but this a software problem it can improve not an hardware one.

Same I know if XSX show its power the advantage will not be anywhere near the PS4 advantage compared to Xbox One or the Xbox One X advantage compared to PS4 Pro.

 

[BRiT]

Haha, they changed it. Now it's the most powerful Xbox.

They've mostly had that seemingly contrasting power claims since the beginning of the year, so nothing to see with that.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

Custom doesn't mean it will be useful for developers running multiplatform games it can be something only useful for first party studios developing games on the platform. Functionnality been on one platform but not the other if it is not very easy or nearly automatic to use will be only use be first party studos without the pressure to release on another perform.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1326956127159005185

https://tekdeeps.com/ps5-does-not-use-rdna-2-architecture-has-sony-failed/

On this message and another one he said there is some unique functionnalities. It doesn't mean it will help in multiplatform game at all. Imo the custom features are only useful to first party devs out of things automated like cache scrubbers.

Microsoft decided Xbox Series need to fully support Direct X 12 Ultimate. Sony does not have any needs to have the full feature set of a PC API.

For the moment on my side this is not if the XSX will prove it more powerful hardware but when? How much time they need to unlock the XSX power. I am like Saint Thomas I need proof to believe something.

After the games I want to play are on PS5 this is more important than the power of the console.

EDIT: The search of secret sauce reminds me of misterxmedia. PS4 Pro had rapid packed math with double FP16 and it was less powerful than the Xbox One X. I don't believe any secret sauce giving some advantage to Sony or custom feature doing the same out of maybe help first party to do better games.

There is not secret sauce because Cerny told us all. There is a great custom coherency and cache system and there is a geometry engine that will make polygons sing.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

They've mostly had that seemingly contrasting power claims since the beginning of the year, so nothing to see with that.

I wouldn't know as I don't visit the site much but they did refer to the XBSX as the most powerful gaming console and not refer it as the most powerful Xbox console, which they are doing now.

 

[AbsoluteBeginner]

There is not secret sauce because Cerny told us all. There is a great custom coherency and cache system and there is a geometry engine that will make polygons sing.

And if (and it is) GE is programmable and devs played around it for a year + now and SSD works like charm, while devs are not using SFS or Mesh Shaders on XSX thus frame rate sky dives during certain scenes etc. etc. then we will just have to wait and see. I mean, DCM5 barely got RT on XSX in last minute, like Watch Dogs, I would still think DF knows their stuff and has good sources when they say tools are coming in hot and late.

Now there is a chance devs cannot saturate 52CUs in console and that 560GB/s and 10GB is not enough for XSX but is for 3080, but I would give them benefit of a doubt here. Many here dont remember PS360 time, that was 5x worse hehe

 

[chris1515]

And if (and it is) GE is programmable and devs played around it for a year + now and SSD works like charm, while devs are not using SFS or Mesh Shaders on XSX thus frame rate sky dives during certain scenes etc. etc. then we will just have to wait and see. I mean, DCM5 barely got RT on XSX in last minute, like Watch Dogs, I would still think DF knows their stuff and has good sources when they say tools are coming in hot and late.

Now there is a chance devs cannot saturate 52CUs in console and that 560GB/s and 10GB is not enough for XSX but is for 3080, but I would give them benefit of a doubt here. Many here dont remember PS360 time, that was 5x worse hehe

Devs don't exploit PS5 or XSX new features, this is essentially cross gen games. When devs exploit a bit the PS5 it gives Demon's souls and Bluepoint can push the PS5 much further.

 

[BRiT]

I wouldn't know as I don't visit the site much

Yeah, some places it's explicit Xbox Console and others it's not. Likely from it not being worth the time for someone to comb over every section of their site and updating verbiage.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Is PS5 uses RDNA1, then.. maybe RDNA1 is just better than RDNA2?

It would be hard to believe that. Everyone just knows RDNA2 is much more efficient than RDNA1.

 

[Deleted member 7537]

At least for high framerate modes, it might be a fixed function issue as the lower resolutions depend more on that than the CUs. There's still a limit at the main memory bandwidth, but perhaps for the ROPs the bandwidth compression is seeing better throughput.

If we assume they are both 64 ROPs for colour writes, then XSX will only need 467GB/s (1.825GHz * 64 writes * 32bpp per write), so they actually have a lot more bandwidth than they need for that. PS5 would need 570GB/s at 2.23GHz. Bandwidth compression may provide about up to an extra 30% on average (448GB/s + 30% = 582GB/s) which puts raw fill rates at a big advantage on there.

Things may look a little different on blending rates, but there's evidence that transparency heavy scenes are also at a disadvantage on XSX, so there's something funny going on there, and there shouldn't be an API issue blocking such simpler operations. Normally, you'd see the blend rates saturate the available bandwidth and XSX should have automagically won, but that's seemingly not being observed.

Things may look different again where 4xFP16 render targets (not pixel shader precision) are used for certain render passes, but the addition of different 32bpp precision formats may skew things back again as developers optimize for performance vs pixel quality.

I'll leave it at there. :V

One question, what is the impact of having additional CU per Shader Array? I mean, I was reading today a piece after the 6800 reviews came and it described all the known configuration of RDNA2 based GPUs, including PS5 and XBSX. One thing that stood out is that PS5 and AMD cards have 10 CUs per SA, while XBSX has 14. Maybe that distinctiveness is what is different and developers need to optimize for that yet? What's the advantage of that configuration vs the standard one (if any)?

 

[AbsoluteBeginner]

It would be hard to believe that. Everyone just knows RDNA2 is much more efficient than RDNA1.

In physical design, yes, but not in architecture. They are the same apart from TMU extension for RT.

There are changes to RB and in HW support for SF, Mesh Shaders and VRS, but otherwise its been efficiency gain through physical design it seems as far as CUs go.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

In physical design, yes, but not in architecture. They are the same apart from TMU extension for RT.

There are changes to RB and in HW support for SF, Mesh Shaders and VRS, but otherwise its been efficiency gain through physical design it seems as far as CUs go.

Except Cerny said that they(Sony and AMD) designed a new Geometry engine, added cache scrubbers, coherency engine etc. That's custom! It's things that won't appear on the XBSX SOC from my understanding as Cerny explained it.

So I doubt RDNA1 will be better than Sony's custom SOC, even if it does share some of the tech.

 

[anexanhume]

I believe the PS5 and SeriesS/X are all made on N7, not N7+ as the latter has higher performance characteristics than N6.
N6 wouldn't be a good qualifier for a PS5 Slim because its performance characteristics are similar to the N7 that both consoles are using already.

What N6 brings is higher density and better yields, i.e. each chip would be cheaper to manufacture.

Technically they’re N7P or N7 “enhanced”.