Current Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

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How can Sony stop users from putting in dodgy drives? They can publish a list of acceptable models and adopt a 'buyer beware' policy for drives not in it, or is it practical to add such a list to firmware updates?

Cerny has gone through this already. They've installed sensors in the machine such that if a non-compliant M2 drive comes as much as near the console the whole machine and all it's peripherals will self destruct with an explosion large enough to kill the console owner and his loved ones. Sony will then send their own team of assassins to finish off whatever remainder members of your family are left thar were not home during the SSD compliance procedure.
 
Cerny has gone through this already. They've installed sensors in the machine such that if a non-compliant M2 drive comes as much as near the console the whole machine and all it's peripherals will self destruct with an explosion large enough to kill the console owner and his loved ones. Sony will then send their own team of assassins to finish off whatever remainder members of your family are left thar were not home during the SSD compliance procedure.
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The game in question was modified in other ways to implement PS5 features. Kraken or zlib would be part of the last stage of generating package. What barrier would a lossless compression pass present versus adding RT and game modes?

Sony said they will show other functionnality of the OS. For example you don't need to enter the game menu to load a save game. You will see when they will show the UI. It was in some Sony patent and from what we see this look like not available in DMC 5 Special Edition or I hope they hide it but there is other optimization available for optimised games.

I hope next week or the week after we will be able to see the OS and loading of PS5 games from the OS screen or loading from the OS screen to a game save.
 
Plot twist: the teardown guy is actually 2 meters high!
2m tall ;)

No you need to pack your game with zlib or kraken, this is not automatic on PS5. Some other games will load much faster and are probably design around the fast SSD than this special edition of a current gen Ember labs CTO told the game Kena load from OS menu to gameplay in 2 seconds. Devs of NBA 2k1 talk about 2s loading and R&C will probably load faster.

And futur first party games will probably load a bit faster than this when they will adopt oodle texture.
Ghost of Tsushima with it's 7.2sec load time on the PS4 should be a game that loads super fast on the PS5 per Sucker Punch's twitter message.
 
No you need to pack your game with zlib or kraken, this is not automatic on PS5. Some other games will load much faster and are probably design around the fast SSD than this special edition of a current gen Ember labs CTO told the game Kena load from OS menu to gameplay in 2 seconds. Devs of NBA 2k1 talk about 2s loading and R&C will probably load faster.

And futur first party games will probably load a bit faster than this when they will adopt oodle texture.

2 seconds? Boooooooooooooooooooored!

Oh.
 
I didn't mean to say it would be impossible to find slower drives, though I hadn't put much thought into how to best find a drive slower than a 5400rpm 3gbs laptop drive.
It seemingly took no effort. If you're prioritising size (capacity) and price, you'll quickly find a range of drives much slower than the stock PS4/Pro drives and run the risk of using a HDD where the peak performance is just 40% of the lowest performance of the stock drive. :runaway:

Off the top of my head, either Sony's test lab or the PS5 would need to catch some things like drives dropping write performance based on whether the SLC cache has been exhausted, which can halve sustained write performance in various places. Then there's empty/full differences in performance, which have been benchmarked ranging from almost none to 20-60%.
Sony's internal system will have the same considerations. If Sony are proving assurance to developers of a particular characteristic, they won't be rolling with the best case scenario. A variety of equipment already has strict stipulations on the specification of storage media; streak cameras are one and there are industry-accepted algorithms that can be applied to the qualification process so Sony don't need to re-invent the wheel.
 
On the PS5, the lossless compression is meant to be transparent to software, so it probably means zlib or kraken must be in use.
DMC5 is a launch day "remastered" game developed by a third party. The hardware decompression might be transparent for current devkits, but launch-day games probably started development using early dev kits. Zen2 CPUs and hardware accelerated raytracing have been available on the PC for some time. The PS5's decompression was only available when PS5 SoC-based devkits were made available, and even then we don't know if the devkit software was ready for it on day one.

It wouldn't be strange if DMC5 SE for PS5 is using just CPU-based decompression. Given those loading times it actually seems to be the most likely scenario, to be honest.
2 seconds is more than it would take the PS5's I/O to fill the amount of RAM that can be allocated for a game (around 13.5GB?). Even it the game engine was wiping out all its RAM and fetching everything again (why though? the level and the characters are the same..), it still wouldn't take that much time to load everything again.



From what we've seen so far, the only game I'm positive to be making use of the PS5's hardware decompression is Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart. That's a first party game that will only release in Q1 2021.



How can Sony stop users from putting in dodgy drives? They can publish a list of acceptable models and adopt a 'buyer beware' policy for drives not in it, or is it practical to add such a list to firmware updates?
No one can stop users from putting in dodgy drives, but no one can stop Sony from mandating a performance check or/and whitelist check on the PS5 for using the addon NVMe, either.
 
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2 seconds is still incredibly fast. I'd be surprised if games loaded any quicker than that.
 
Sony said they will show other functionnality of the OS. For example you don't need to enter the game menu to load a save game. You will see when they will show the UI. It was in some Sony patent and from what we see this look like not available in DMC 5 Special Edition or I hope they hide it but there is other optimization available for optimised games.

I hope next week or the week after we will be able to see the OS and loading of PS5 games from the OS screen or loading from the OS screen to a game save.

Sony have been very secretive about the UX. They've also been very secretive about what the PS5 Camera is for (it's not PSVR compatible, and for streaming with PiP video a single sensor would suffice).

Regardless, it looks like the UX reveal is happening.. 2 days from now?

It's been teased by.. erm.. Burger King?





2 seconds is still incredibly fast. I'd be surprised if games loaded any quicker than that.
For a game's cold boot yes. For loading a checkpoint within the same level it's too much IMO, given the system specs.
 
2 seconds is still incredibly fast. I'd be surprised if games loaded any quicker than that.

Kena they said they load in 2 seconds from the OS menu to gameplay, I suppose this is a saved game. After curious to see loading from bonfire in Demons Soul's out of tutorial but I would not be surprise if depending of the level it is between 0,8 second like the tutorial to maximum 1.5/2 seconds.
 
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DMC5 is a launch day "remastered" game developed by a third party. The hardware decompression might be transparent for current devkits, but launch-day games probably started development using early dev kits. Zen2 CPUs and hardware accelerated raytracing have been available on the PC for some time. The PS5's decompression was only available when PS5 SoC-based devkits were made available, and even then we don't know if the devkit software was ready for it on day one.
If we believe that DMC5 was eventually run on PS5 hardware before release, that's close to the time frame needed for a compression run on the package. This is also assuming there isn't a baseline zlib or Kraken implementation akin to how you can mark a drive or folder as "compressed" and the disk subsystem compresses anything that goes into that region of the disk. If the PS5 has a default compression setting for the SSD and the use of it is transparent, it seems possible that it would require little attention or effort to happen--unless the PS5's functionality itself is not ready in that regard.

Optimization stages or preprocessing for things like Oodle texture could take more time, but some level of packing or compression would likely happen regardless for the disc and download packages, with zlib being omnipresent and Kraken already in use prior to the PS5. This assumes the PS5 doesn't have a platform-wide compression flag for data going onto the SSDs.

It wouldn't be strange if DMC5 SE for PS5 is using just CPU-based decompression. Given those loading times it actually seems to be the most likely scenario, to be honest.
Loading a level or save is performing other tasks besides moving data off-disk. Setting up objects and the render pipeline and constructing a scene again from the save data is non-trivial. It may have been dwarfed by the IO time with an HDD, so a massive improvement in drive performance may reveal what was going on concurrently. Future games that seek to remove totally load screens may need to revisit design fundamentals that assume brutally slow IO.

2 seconds is more than it would take the PS5's I/O to fill the amount of RAM that can be allocated for a game (around 13.5GB?). Even it the game engine was wiping out all its RAM and fetching everything again (why though? the level and the characters are the same..), it still wouldn't take that much time to load everything again.
It's possible that the drive isn't reaching peak performance, if it turns out there are more general layout optimizations missed. However, if the baseline were optimized for non-random access it seems like the drive would handle things well.
However, if the game's base design assumed there would be a big IO event at launch or loading a save, it's potentially safer wipe a lot of state and reinitialize rather than worry about dirty state carrying over. If there's going to be many seconds of downtime, a small set of broad invalidations and restarts to a known state can be developed and debugged more readily.


No one can stop users from putting in dodgy drives, but no one can stop Sony from mandating a performance check or/and whitelist check on the PS5 for using the addon NVMe, either.
A drive list in firmware may be possible, although heavy-handed relative to prior generations. A performance check at installation time may be too trivial. Perhaps raw bandwidth could be checked in a small amount of time, but would a more rigorous benchmark be reasonable to expect a console to perform on its own, and could it be done without making the upgrade process more onerous for the consumer? Should we also look at that concept in light of Sony's level of platform and software engineering, and the time it took to implement other system features?
 
If we believe that DMC5 was eventually run on PS5 hardware before release, that's close to the time frame needed for a compression run on the package. This is also assuming there isn't a baseline zlib or Kraken implementation akin to how you can mark a drive or folder as "compressed" and the disk subsystem compresses anything that goes into that region of the disk. If the PS5 has a default compression setting for the SSD and the use of it is transparent, it seems possible that it would require little attention or effort to happen--unless the PS5's functionality itself is not ready in that regard.

Optimization stages or preprocessing for things like Oodle texture could take more time, but some level of packing or compression would likely happen regardless for the disc and download packages, with zlib being omnipresent and Kraken already in use prior to the PS5. This assumes the PS5 doesn't have a platform-wide compression flag for data going onto the SSDs.


Loading a level or save is performing other tasks besides moving data off-disk. Setting up objects and the render pipeline and constructing a scene again from the save data is non-trivial. It may have been dwarfed by the IO time with an HDD, so a massive improvement in drive performance may reveal what was going on concurrently.


It's possible that the drive isn't reaching peak performance, if it turns out there are more general layout optimizations missed. However, if the baseline were optimized for non-random access it seems like the drive would handle things well.
However, if the game's base design assumed there would be a big IO event at launch or loading a save, it's potentially safer wipe a lot of state and reinitialize rather than worry about dirty state carrying over. If there's going to be many seconds of downtime, a small set of broad invalidations and restarts to a known state can be developed and debugged more readily.



A drive list in firmware may be possible, although heavy-handed relative to prior generations. A performance check at installation time may be too trivial. Perhaps raw bandwidth could be checked in a small amount of time, but would a more rigorous benchmark be reasonable to expect a console to perform on its own, and could it be done without making the upgrade process more onerous for the consumer? Should we also look at that concept in light of Sony's level of platform and software engineering, and the time it took to implement other system features?

It is helped by the much more powerful CPU and just wait the UI when you will see it. There was a Sony patent for hiding a bit CPU operation for loading a game. Preemptively load the 3d engine and setup it before you click on the game, same for saved game, use 3d menu and so on.

You will see DMC 5 is not the pinacle of load time on PS5 and probably XSX|XSS.

Basically the SSD is the first things they done on PS5. R&D began on 2015 and patent of SSD were all filed in 2015 and 2016. Same for OS and API patent linked to the SSD they aren't the most recent one.

From Fabian Giesen of RAD tools game.




Out of maybe Insomniac Games with Mark Cerny as a consultant and Spiderman and Insomniac Games engine used as R&D for the SSD.

 
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Seems Spiderman Mile Morales loading are faster than DMC 5 from the community manager and Gameinformer article. They saw someone playing the game.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ga...morales-coverage-trailer.305549/post-48394454

Fade down. Fade back up. Very fast.

Into gameinformer
No load times on PS5. Just a screen flash when you fast travel. On PS4, loading is a mix of Spider-Man images with tips or subway rides.

Maybe something like this but more fancy.

YIJmNh7.gif
 
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As I mentioned before, expect any system advantages to be present in first-party titles, not third-party multiplatform titles.

Kena Bridge of the spirit is a multiplatform games, only temporarily exclusive to PS4 and PS5 and it load from the OS menu to gameplay in 2 seconds on PS5 from what told Ember Labs dev. Mark Cerny explained it the SSD is usable using an API when people will have optimised I/O, it will be transparent and goes as fast in loading as first party games. He explained it into Road to PS5, the CPU only ask for an uncompressed file and wait the asychronous PS5 SSD I/O to do the dirty work. Charles Bloom from RAD tools games explain it too, no involvement of the CPU when everything is optimized and future multiplatform games will be optimized for SSD (PS5, Xbox Series X|S or PC NVME). Insomniac games was the engine choose to do the R&D on the PS5 SSD. This is the reason it is so fast. The multiplatform optimization for SSD will help too third party to reach first party speed in loading. The difference is Insomniac devs probably work since nearly two years on optimizing the engine for the PS5 SSD.

https://cbloomrants.blogspot.com/2020/09/how-oodle-kraken-and-oodle-texture.html

The Sony PS5 will have the fastest data loading ever available in a mass market consumer device, and we think it may be even better than you have previously heard. What makes that possible is a fast SSD, an excellent IO stack that is fully independent of the CPU, and the Kraken hardware decoder. Kraken compression acts as a multiplier for the IO speed and disk capacity, storing more games and loading faster in proportion to the compression ratio.

Streaming optimised around PS5 SSD will only be available in first party games.

Source for kena:
https://www.gameinformer.com/kena
 
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