"Cinematic look" in games

[Shifty Geezer]

You just agreed with me. People play games because of the gameplay, not to watch QTEs.

I can't be agreeing with you because I still don't quite understand your argument. You're using the term 'gameplay' without defining it, and that'll means different things to different people. Heck, QTEs are a type of gameplay.

Some games are based on reactions and following instructions. The challenge is responding fast enough and accurately enough. Guitar Hero and Dance Dance Revolution are the pinnacle of this style of game.

Other games have their focus on coordination and reactions, so aiming and shooting is the challenge. That's pretty much every shooter ever.

Other games focus on decision making, like Tetris.

Some games combine elements strongly. I'm thinking R-Type with it's choice making regards how to use the Pod and which weapon to equip. There's problem solving decision making as well as reaction based coordination.

I really don't know where your argument fits in. My best interpretation is that you disregard some gameplay types as they don't appeal to you so you believe they don't appeal to others. But I really don't know what your vision of a 'deep shooter' is and what you're looking for in cinematic games. I certainly don't see that cinematic games are any more lacking than non-cinematic games - perhaps they are, but without anyone explaining what the differences are and giving examples, I'm hard pushed to follow the argument.

 

[zed]

got a feeling if some other game did a similar set piece to uncharted 2 train section.

there was one with ninja's and throwing stars that took place on top of a train back around ~1985

 

[Sigfried1977]

I don't even mind QTEs if they're somewhat well done. An entire boss battle in RE4 is built around the limited mechanic, and it remains tense as hell to this day. God of War games used to make good use of them too (not Ascension, though.) Unfortunately they're so painfully easy to hit in most games they might as well not even be there. And even if you accidentally slept through a cutscene and missed one, the game would usually checkpoint right before it anyway. It's just so pointless.

 

[L. Scofield]

I can't be agreeing with you because I still don't quite understand your argument. You're using the term 'gameplay' without defining it, and that'll means different things to different people. Heck, QTEs are a type of gameplay.

Some games are based on reactions and following instructions. The challenge is responding fast enough and accurately enough. Guitar Hero and Dance Dance Revolution are the pinnacle of this style of game.

Other games have their focus on coordination and reactions, so aiming and shooting is the challenge. That's pretty much every shooter ever.

Other games focus on decision making, like Tetris.

Some games combine elements strongly. I'm thinking R-Type with it's choice making regards how to use the Pod and which weapon to equip. There's problem solving decision making as well as reaction based coordination.

I really don't know where your argument fits in. My best interpretation is that you disregard some gameplay types as they don't appeal to you so you believe they don't appeal to others. But I really don't know what your vision of a 'deep shooter' is and what you're looking for in cinematic games. I certainly don't see that cinematic games are any more lacking than non-cinematic games - perhaps they are, but without anyone explaining what the differences are and giving examples, I'm hard pushed to follow the argument.

QTEs (as currently used at least) aren't exactly a type of gameplay. It's the substitution of gameplay with a cutscene. The button prompts are just there to make you feel you have any control when in reality you don't. It's a way for developers to show the character doing cool stuff without the player doing anything but still feel part of the game. A cheap trick really, not unlike operant conditioning in MMOs.

Reminds me of giving a controller to a younger sibling who's watching you play so he can mash buttons and think he's playing too.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

QTEs (as currently used at least) aren't exactly a type of gameplay. It's the substitution of gameplay with a cutscene. The button prompts are just there to make you feel you have any control when in reality you don't.

That's not true. It may divides player control into simple success or failure, but it's still there, every bit as pushing the X button when the head is in the crosshairs as pressing the X button when the symbol appears on screen. I can agree that the transition from normal gaming to a QTE event can be abrupt and unwelcome, especially if one dislikes QTEs at all, but you can't argue that they aren't gameplay except when the outcome of the QTE doesn't affect the game (ie. you don't die for getting it wrong, or there's no penalty for a poor performance). They are technically every bit as gameplay as hitting the right coloured button on a guitar controller in time to on-screen prompts. In some cases they are just prompts for the actions you'd use even if they weren't there. eg. Uncharted, the QTE melee was only QTE as long as you used the prompts. Disabling them in the higher difficulty meant the gameplay was the same, but the cues were different (no big on screen prompt which button to press when).

If you can't articulate your argument beyond "any game with QTEs sucks", I'm not really seeing where this discussion can go. You've still yet to present an example of good game design for comparison, to point out the faults in the cinematic titles. It may be that the games you'd hold up as prime examples can be similarly critiqued for nondescript gameplay, and the whole thing come down to subjective interpretation. Or not. But without some reference points to discuss, this discussion can't discuss.

 

[milk]

I believe few people will disagree with you that gamplay could be a lot deeper and varied than it is on modern games. Most people would also agree that QTE's are indeed a pretty shallow placeholder for more involving or emergent mechanics.
What I do not agree with, and I think other too, is your blaming of presentation improvements. I don't think one exclude the other, nor do I think ignoring thos aspects would free-up enough time for devs to do any miracles on the mechanical ones. Improving AI, controls, etc is MUCH harder than improving mo cap, animation and so on.
Improvements are being made, just slowly....

 

[L. Scofield]

That's not true. It may divides player control into simple success or failure, but it's still there, every bit as pushing the X button when the head is in the crosshairs as pressing the X button when the symbol appears on screen. I can agree that the transition from normal gaming to a QTE event can be abrupt and unwelcome, especially if one dislikes QTEs at all, but you can't argue that they aren't gameplay except when the outcome of the QTE doesn't affect the game (ie. you don't die for getting it wrong, or there's no penalty for a poor performance). They are technically every bit as gameplay as hitting the right coloured button on a guitar controller in time to on-screen prompts. In some cases they are just prompts for the actions you'd use even if they weren't there. eg. Uncharted, the QTE melee was only QTE as long as you used the prompts. Disabling them in the higher difficulty meant the gameplay was the same, but the cues were different (no big on screen prompt which button to press when).

With such a definition of gameplay, pressing play to watch a DVD is equal to playing a game. After all, if you don't press it you can't watch the movie. But even if we consider current implementations of QTEs as gameplay, they don't provide nearly the same level of satisfaction as having full control of the player character.

Contrary to what some people might think, there is satisfaction in overcoming obstacles.

If you can't articulate your argument beyond "any game with QTEs sucks", I'm not really seeing where this discussion can go. You've still yet to present an example of good game design for comparison, to point out the faults in the cinematic titles. It may be that the games you'd hold up as prime examples can be similarly critiqued for nondescript gameplay, and the whole thing come down to subjective interpretation. Or not. But without some reference points to discuss, this discussion can't discuss.

I did articulate my argument. In a nutshell "Player control > watching the game play itself." I did mention Uncharted as an example of non QTE combat in contrast to The Order.

The entire discussion isn't specifically about QTEs. It extends to every aspect where presentation has been favored over gameplay (like the ones I mentioned) so there's plenty of ways the discussion can go as long as you don't choose to fixate on just one thing

I believe few people will disagree with you that gamplay could be a lot deeper and varied than it is on modern games. Most people would also agree that QTE's are indeed a pretty shallow placeholder for more involving or emergent mechanics.
What I do not agree with, and I think other too, is your blaming of presentation improvements. I don't think one exclude the other, nor do I think ignoring thos aspects would free-up enough time for devs to do any miracles on the mechanical ones. Improving AI, controls, etc is MUCH harder than improving mo cap, animation and so on.
Improvements are being made, just slowly....

Indeed not all elements listed are necessarily bad, like the type of stories told. It's only when they take away from gameplay that I consider them bad, like QTEs, or a low FOV, over excessively linear level design.

 

[orangpelupa]

personally, i like when they not overly cinematic.

for me, the 1st 10 minute of The Last of Us were perfect. It give the cinematic feeling and confine my "control" on the right moment that feels "logical".

on the other hand, its annoy me when the "cinematic" were borked by game or vise versa. For example, in GTA V cinematic, the cars and character always came from 1 position although i parked my car somewhere else, although i came by landing a jet :/
or when the mission is to loose the cop, but the story forced my to run along one specific path. This is illogical because GTA V usually allow me to just steal a car or a heli.

Btw, Metal gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes with its almost "one camera for all scene" cinematic/gameplay seems a good mix. But gotta wait for the game release to really sure.

 

[milk]

I almost used GTA V as an example of cinematics done Right! hahaha.
Sure it has its rough edges, but they are actually taking the seamlessness of cutscene vs. gameplay farther than most other games actually do through the way they blend in and out of player controled animations into cutscene ones in the begging or end of their cinematics. I imagine all devs that go for cinematic games looked at that and though "shit, they've gone there, now we all need to top it"
This gen, ND mastered the art of hiding the shortcomings of the jump from real time gameplay to prerendered cutscenes, but Rockstar actually went and fixed them instead of working around them. They were not 100% sucessfull, but at least they took the first steps.

 

[orangpelupa]

For the blending of cinematic and gameplay and qte, I like Asura Wrath.

The result of pushing or not pushing button is satisfactory and quick. The transition into battle also nice.

Hey, it even allow me to punch the villain when they talk for too long (explaining their evil in detail and boring).

 

[Bigduo209]

I don't mind QTEs or context-sensitive gameplay as long as it does something genuinely interesting that isn't completely shallow. God of War does it well with it's visceral approach to combat, it plays into grabbing different enemy types and their own abilities against every other enemy (battering ram, petrifying, temporary monster taming), or the big boss-fight cinematic kills. The Order hasn't shown enough to say it's approach on combat is good or bad, there has to be more to it than just "choose to pistol-whip or punch" and firing into walls until you hit someone.

Cinematic cutscenes mixed with gameplay is fine too when done right. Batman Arkham Asylum/City are better examples of that, plenty of story-related gameplay with optional side quests or hidden areas to find during/after the main story events. The Ratchet and Clank series had a similar scope before Insomniac abandoned most of that template for the newer games and whatever else they were working on.

 

[Nesh]

I am a little confused with the thread. Are we talking about the rendering style or the gameplay presentation or have we confused both and lost track?

 

[London Geezer]

For the blending of cinematic and gameplay and qte, I like Asura Wrath.

The result of pushing or not pushing button is satisfactory and quick. The transition into battle also nice.

Hey, it even allow me to punch the villain when they talk for too long (explaining their evil in detail and boring).

While I love Asura's Wrath, you can hardly call it a game. It's one of those things, I absolutely loved almost every second of it, but if I think about it I didn't love the game, I loved everything else. Some battles were amazing but were about 15% of the overall experience.

 

[orangpelupa]

Wait... How you change your name like that? Lol

@nesh
When I posted on previous page, I thought it was both.

Sory if I'm wrong. My English kind of rusty

 

[London Geezer]

Wait... How you change your name like that? Lol

It was a bit of a joke that ultimately came back to bite me in the ass. But I like it, for now

 

[Pixel]

I am a little confused with the thread. Are we talking about the rendering style or the gameplay presentation or have we confused both and lost track?

I guess because LScotfield was slowly steering it in this direction

 

[L. Scofield]

It's about presentation taking over gameplay. RE4 added interactivity to cutscenes. That was good. Other games have replaced gameplay with cutscenes. That is bad.

 

[DrJay24]

It's about presentation taking over gameplay. RE4 added interactivity to cutscenes. That was good. Other games have replaced gameplay with cutscenes. That is bad.

Adding cutscenes does not imply they removed game play. Do you think Uncharted 2 would have more game play if they removed the cut scenes? Maybe my car would have more horse power if they didn't add a GPS?

 

[L. Scofield]

Keyword is replace. Metal Gear games have tons of cutscenes and yet don't sacrifice gameplay (save for some parts of MGS4).

 

[Sonic]

I kind of liked the way Shenmue worked, at least in retrospect, as there was still a great variety in gameplay and the fighting engine was decent enough. That game had a lot of cut scenes and QTE's but replaying it isn't all that bad. Could be nostalgia too, but I'm enjoying it.

What percentage of game time would people be comfortable with QTE's taking up?