CELL will be there in PS3!

[jvd]

BTW, how much time did MS take since the inception of XB concept and actual launch????

I heard the actual system it self was done in under a year . They spent 3 years on the whole project. Which I assume is research into the sector , if they wanted to go into it, what the target specs should be , what developers they should go with and all that fun stuff . Then also some development on games and creating the actual section of ms dedicated to xbox stuff .

 

[Phil]

PC-Engine:

I'm not sure if I follow your logic here. You say that the trend suggest developers going multi-console and this would be to an advantage of Microsoft/Nintendo if they were to launch significantly earlier, speaking a year or more in advance. While I do agree that an earlier launch date will secure more support, I also wonder how happy those developers will be to bring their well-known PlayStation franchises onto the compeeting console, especially in the knowledge that Sony will be coming out soon with better hardware and the potential mindshare that will most-likely make it another successful console.

From what I can tell, Sony seems to have a good relationship to developers such as SquareEnix, Namco, Konami which have been supporting the PlayStation brand with exclusives or good titles since the PSX days. You seem to imply though that if Microsoft/Nintendo launches by a year or more earlier, that all those developers will be happy to develop for the next big thing. I really doubt so, really.

The PS2 will possibly have a userbase of 80 million by 2005 (okay, maybe a bit less, but fairly close) and the mindshare around a next PlayStation will be immense. Think of all the little happy Johnny's out there with the PS2 ready in anticipation for Sony's next console. Xbox 2, what? I'm sure Xbox supporters of this gen will be the first to get Microsoft's new console, but to the majority which are PS2 owners out there, I'd say they will most possible wait up for the next big thing. Microsoft can only change this by getting Sony's big franchises of this gen (Metal Gear Solid, Grand Theft Auto etc) on to their console, in an optimal scenario, even as launch titles. Sony I'm sure though will make sure not to give those titles away that easily, covering up exclusivity contracts, similar to the ones it probably has now. The good relationships with those developers will make it hard for Microsoft to overbet them. Developers also know that the mindshare Sony has is HUGE - supporting the next PlayStation brand is their best bet to ensure profits and sales. Despite Sega's reputation in case of Dreamcast, I think this was one of the reasons why developer support never really picked up. It was a great console, great hardware, great fanbase and great games - yet they all waited for the "big fish".

Call me biased, really, but no matter when Sony launches, I see them in a great advantage, no matter how you put it. Multi-console games will increase and I'm sure Xbox will have more support, but I expect to see the big games exclusive to PS3. An earlier launch date for Microsoft, I admit, will make for a much better position though and I do believe that it will be a much harder battle for Sony if they launch later. Chances are that this will happen though, I think are quite small. I personally think Sony is just playing with the competition and that they are in fact right on schedule for a 2005 or early 2006 release.

Edit: Before anyone jumps on me, just to clarify: I think how well MS is competitive is dependend on how many mistakes Sony makes (i.e. expensive/hard development with insufficient libraries) and well, how Zurich puts it below, how well MS manages to present themselves and make an inpact on the market...

 

[zurich]

Personally, I think the only chance MS has of upstaging Sony next gen is dependent on a few factors (that are unlikely to happen):

1) That whatever CPU/graphics combo goes into the PS3 is so insanely difficult to work with from the get go, (underscoring the need for non-existant tools and actual english docs [think PS2 launch]), developers will be forced to put out patched together eyesore launch titles (see RRV and Fantavision for PS2).

2) That, at the same time, the XB2 is sitting pretty on tried and tested DX10 or 11 with beautiful, eye catching games from the get go (think DoA3/Halo for XB1), with perhaps a killer ap online title to boot.

I think MS needs this drastic (somewhat unrealistic) contrast at a near simultaneous launch to steal Sony's thunder.. I don't think a year early (or even 6 months) launch for XB2 would be a good idea at all.. memories of Dreamcast come to mind. If the PS3 and XB2 hit market close enough, the specs difference should be negligable enough to forgo the "wait for big fish" scenario.

That said, unless Sony stumbles big time on their architecture and tools at launch, I think MS will have a tough time selling their system over the standard quo.

 

[London Geezer]

Personally, I think the only chance MS has of upstaging Sony next gen is dependent on a few factors (that are unlikely to happen):

1) That whatever CPU/graphics combo goes into the PS3 is so insanely difficult to work with from the get go, (underscoring the need for non-existant tools and actual english docs [think PS2 launch]), developers will be forced to put out patched together eyesore launch titles (see RRV and Fantavision for PS2).

2) That, at the same time, the XB2 is sitting pretty on tried and tested DX10 or 11 with beautiful, eye catching games from the get go (think DoA3/Halo for XB1), with perhaps a killer ap online title to boot.

I think MS needs this drastic (somewhat unrealistic) contrast at a near simultaneous launch to steal Sony's thunder.. I don't think a year early (or even 6 months) launch for XB2 would be a good idea at all.. memories of Dreamcast come to mind. If the PS3 and XB2 hit market close enough, the specs difference should be negligable enough to forgo the "wait for big fish" scenario.

That said, unless Sony stumbles big time on their architecture and tools at launch, I think MS will have a tough time selling their system over the standard quo.

agreed on most points.... but... what was wrong with fantavision? i mean, apart from *not being a game*, it looked pretty cool... prehistoric now, but it was pretty cool at launch

 

[Deepak]

Hannibal CPU Expert from arstehnica.com got reply from electronic design chain....here it is...

"Ok, I got a clarification email from the author. I'll paste it in below. Please let me know if you think this deserves its own follow-up news post, or if this post is sufficient:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gentlemen:

We're delighted that that Electronics Design Chain's story on the Cell project was so widely read. Each of you questioned the statement regarding the use of the Cell chip in PlayStation 3. For clarification, I went back to author Geoffrey James, who replied in an e-mail, reproduced below. As you can see, both Sony and IBM seem to have grander plans for the Cell processor than just gaming devices.

Howard Baldwin Editor, Electronics Design Chain hbaldwin@designchain.com

****

The following question was addressed to Yoshiko Furusawa, director of corporate communications at Sony Computer Entertainment, while I was wrestling with them to grant an interview:

"Is Sony's refusal to discuss this project an indication that company's plans surrounding the Playstation3 are in jeopardy?"

His response:

"We will disclose the progress at appropriate timings in the future, however, there is nothing that can be made open at this point in time. Please also note that the objective of the three companies is to develop a new microprocessor (codenamed Cell) for broadband networks, and not PlayStation 3."

I took this as a clear statement that the Cell would not be in the Playstation 3 product. During a fact check telephone conversation with Scott Sykes, who does public relations for the IBM Microprocessor division, I asked whether it was true that Cell would not go into the Playstation 3. His statement (as I recall it) was to the effect that Sony's plans are driven by release requirements in the gaming market, but that the Cell had a much broader application area.

Here's how I read the situation. Sony needs to release a new gaming machine relatively soon in order to compete with the Xbox - which can crawl up the Intel processor chain whenever it wants. While the Cell project is proceeding apace, it seems unlikely that such an ambitious design will be complete by the time that Sony needs to release a new game machine. The Internet rumor (for what its worth) is that the Playstation 3 chip will be a PowerPC running some variety of Linux.

****
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thoughts? It doesn't really seem to clear things up one way or the other for me, but it does tend to make me think that I was right. I mean, my reading of the quotes he reproduces are that Sony and IBM want to stress that the Cell is by no means a PS3-only project, or that the PS3 is even its main application domain. And they want to stress this because the main excitement over the Cell on the consumer is its use in the PS3. So now they're trying to play that down so that Cell doesn't get pigeonholed as a gaming technology, since they do have wider plans for it than just the Playstation.

Also, I find the PS3 = PPC Linux thing highly unlikely."

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The more interesting question is: will Cell work? Will they build the kind of world they're dreaming.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is indeed the most interesting question. I would love to see it work, but just on a superficial level I think the odds are against it. Why? Because the depressing truth about successful advances in computer technology is that 99% of them are incremental. Just ask Intel. They made their fortune by betting on this principle, and the one time the ditched it and tried to start from scratch with something "revolutionary" was with Itanium... and you see how that has turned out.

Still, it's that remaining 1% of successful non-incremental advances that change everything. So the Cell could concievably fall into that 1%, but the odds are against it. All we can really do, though, is wait and see.

 

[zidane1strife]

Performance will be more important for Nintendo or Microsoft because they are compeeting against the mindshare that Sony has. Less powerful hardware will only come to a disadvantage to Microsoft - I wouldn't even say Nintendo, as they have their own little market that will support them as they are with Cube now (and have with the N64).

Indeed, the H/W side is what could give nintendo an edge over ms next gen... if they too follow the massively multicore super cpu strategy of sony, dev.s will probably be able to more easily port between the ps3 and gcn... making them focus on nonpcish cpus first and then if need be sloppily porting the code into the intel or amd single/dual core cpu.

Not only that but the edge in animations, and physics(which will be what will allow for new forms of gameplay IOW distinguish the gameplay from this gen.) could set both gcn2, and ps3 apart from the xb2 in the eyes of the consumer.

i still think that it will cost MS a lot to make a more powerful machine than PS3 with off the shelf components... a lot more than Sony is spending for something that at the end of the day is not only for PS3 anyway...
and the quicker MS wants a powerful machine out, the more it will cost them...

Indeed, the good tech 65nm and below won't be cheaply available for companies without a foundry(mainly pc gpu companies...)... that cost will be passed on to ms...

The new near and sub .1m world also requires the engineers to be in close contact with the people at the foundry, as many have said physical quirks, and many other probs. are arising that may require the architecture to be changed with prior intimate knowledge of the specific manufacturing processes involved at a particular foundry.... without this delays might become ever more frequent, we've already seen a prelude of this(geforce fx)... and it will only get worse... many have forecasted this will hurt non-foundry companies... any delays and its cost will be passed on to ms...

Also sony will make sure they have several fold the performance of what is available on the market.... perfomance that will likely surpass the perf. difference between xbox and the off the shelf gf3(IOW, sony has prior knowledge of what's on the market and will make h/w that will equal/surpass viable modifications to off the shelf components, in anticipation of xb2.)

Last time sony had primitive manufacturing(no copper interconnects, etc...) tech which handicapped their design... This time they appear to be slightly ahead of most companies in terms of their manufacturing(65nm 2004)... It won't be easy to surpass them, especially with a nonfoundry company(basically what's available out there for ms...)

and Last but certainly not least, if nvidia/ati and intel/amd get good contracts that force ms into paying for a certain amount of units per yr, regardless of the market... and the xb2 goes into third place.... ms wallet will fall wide open...

2 billions on XB1 itself

Wasn't that for continuing xb, xb live, and conceptualizing xb2... IOW I think that doesn't take into account previous stuff like the initial money lost at launch, for buying bungie, for designing xbox, etc...

 

[Brimstone]

On one hand I think Sony would be nuts to declare if Cell will be in the PS3 or not. On the other hand the Cell hype seems to have gotten out of control. The 1000 times the power of a PS 2 statement has become a part of the PS 3 culture already. Having the raw power of the PS 3 being the stuff of legend at this early prelaunch stage could lead to disaster among the hardcore gaming crowd, if the god like power turns out to be a myth once the final console hardware arrives.

What happens if the CPU in the PS 3 is a quad core Power PC chip? While of course that is incredibly powerful, it's hardly mind blowing.

This is indeed the most interesting question. I would love to see it work, but just on a superficial level I think the odds are against it. Why? Because the depressing truth about successful advances in computer technology is that 99% of them are incremental. Just ask Intel. They made their fortune by betting on this principle, and the one time the ditched it and tried to start from scratch with something "revolutionary" was with Itanium... and you see how that has turned out.

That is a very good example using Itanium. Intel and HP have poured a lot of resources into that architechture and as good as it is, it's far from "OMG...it destroys everything". Cell will be intresting but it won't make the earth stand still.

 

[megadrive0088]

The way I see it is, Sony will tailor a special chip for PS3's CPU using elements of the Cell project. call the PS3's CPU the Emotion Engine 3.
(as it has been since 1999 when talk of PS3 first started with the Phase 3
plan)

the EE3 will use many APUs and cut down CPU cores (PPC or MIPs) and have many elements from the Cell chip. the Cell sounds like a CPU that will be used in a wide range of things, as IBM have mentioned. the PS3's EE3 CPU will be highly specialized.

So perhaps that is why we hear things saying that "Cell" wont be used in PS3. not the ordinary Cell. the PS3 uses EE3

Obviously parts of Cell will be used in PS3's CPU, otherwise WHY would Sony Computer Entertainment/Ken Kugari be working with IBM & Toshiba?

 

[London Geezer]

The way I see it is, Sony will tailor a special chip for PS3's CPU using elements of the Cell project. call the PS3's CPU the Emotion Engine 3.
(as it has been since 1999 when talk of PS3 first started with the Phase 3
plan)

the EE3 will use many APUs and cut down CPU cores (PPC or MIPs) and have many elements from the Cell chip. the Cell sounds like a CPU that will be used in a wide range of things, as IBM have mentioned. the PS3's EE3 CPU will be highly specialized.

So perhaps that is why we hear things saying that "Cell" wont be used in PS3. not the ordinary Cell. the PS3 uses EE3

Obviously parts of Cell will be used in PS3's CPU, otherwise WHY would Sony Computer Entertainment/Ken Kugari be working with IBM & Toshiba?

I AGREE... obviously the Cell *project* has a lot to do with PS3 if only for the following reasons:

- The Playstation side of things makes up for HALF of Sony's income.
- They are spending a whole lot of money on the project, and that can only be justifiable if they are using it for the item that makes up for half their income.
- Mr Kutaragi is involved

i think the Cell *project* will embrace every single electronic product Sony will make in the future, but there will be various versions of Cell as we have had the opportunity to discuss. the ideas behind Cell will be used for things that will probably not be named "Cell"...

 

[Panajev2001a]

"We will disclose the progress at appropriate timings in the future, however, there is nothing that can be made open at this point in time. Please also note that the objective of the three companies is to develop a new microprocessor (codenamed Cell) for broadband networks, and not PlayStation 3."

I took this as a clear statement that the Cell would not be in the Playstation 3 product. During a fact check telephone conversation with Scott Sykes, who does public relations for the IBM Microprocessor division, I asked whether it was true that Cell would not go into the Playstation 3. His statement (as I recall it) was to the effect that Sony's plans are driven by release requirements in the gaming market, but that the Cell had a much broader application area.

Here's how I read the situation. Sony needs to release a new gaming machine relatively soon in order to compete with the Xbox - which can crawl up the Intel processor chain whenever it wants. While the Cell project is proceeding apace, it seems unlikely that such an ambitious design will be complete by the time that Sony needs to release a new game machine. The Internet rumor (for what its worth) is that the Playstation 3 chip will be a PowerPC running some variety of Linux.

****
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thoughts? It doesn't really seem to clear things up one way or the other for me, but it does tend to make me think that I was right. I mean, my reading of the quotes he reproduces are that Sony and IBM want to stress that the Cell is by no means a PS3-only project, or that the PS3 is even its main application domain. And they want to stress this because the main excitement over the Cell on the consumer is its use in the PS3. So now they're trying to play that down so that Cell doesn't get pigeonholed as a gaming technology, since they do have wider plans for it than just the Playstation.

Also, I find the PS3 = PPC Linux thing highly unlikely."

Italic = hannibal

Bold = EDC writer

Normal = Sony


I f#$&*%^ knew that it was HIS own speculation and that Sony never made such a statement directly...

I am sorry, but Sony's true response and all the Cell related stratements made by Sony at GDC and in other occasions ( like more recently when annoucning the new fabs ), the fact SCEI is building fabs ( spending billion of dollars ) for Cell and they mentioned "next generation computer entertainment systems and other LSIs" ( which is going to use their brand new 65 nm manufacturing process which was basically thought specifically for such large scale projects ) in the PR regarding the new Oita and Nagasaki fabs... all together should be a pretty BIG hint that a Cell based PlayStation 3 is quite more than just a possibility...

Cell is not destined ONLY for PlayStation 3, but they will make use of that architecture in PlayStation 3, their media center, their living room's gravitational center... remember Sony corp. re-organized around SCE... that it is not something that happens every day...

Cell is not going against Intel and x86 in the desktop market, it is going in the broad consumer electronics market ( and probably in the high-end servers and graphics workstations one too... ) a place where there is no x86 backward compatibility leverage to use... also dynamic re-compilation and emulation has already made giant leaps in the past... ever heard of FX!32 from Alpha ? Intel has a similar solution for their Itanium processors...

Launching a chip in the PC market means you have to HAVE STRONG x86 compatibility and this is not something Cell has to worry at first...

PlayStation 3, Sony and Toshiba's DVDs, MP3 players, Mini-Discs, Blu-Ray players, Stereos, HDTVs, PDAs, Cell-phones, etc...

That is the area Cell will be primarily fighting for ( and has chance of building a big user-base there... hint... PlayStation 3... hint... )... high-end servers, render-farm and Routers should see Cell too ( especially Render-farms, online renderfarms )

 

[Panajev2001a]

Megadrive... Cell is an architecture, more like IA-32 and IA-64/IPF or SPARC... things like the Broadband Engine and the Visualizer defined in the patent are "implementations" of the Cell architecture.

I do not expect them to cut the PUs, which are not big and full-fledged PPC cores, as that would cut the PEs...

The basic Cell is: 1 PU + 1 APU + 1 DMAC which is the BASIC Processor Element or PE

The APU is internally configurable, but the Cell products you build using modifications of the BASIC PE ( adding APUs for example, raising or lowering the clock-speed, adding e-DRAM [some very cheap systems might decide not to use it off-chip if they do not need the HUGE bandwidth... which is not true for something running huge data streams like PlayStation 3 would with tons and tons of vectors for Physics, T&L, etc... ).

 

[Panajev2001a]

On one hand I think Sony would be nuts to declare if Cell will be in the PS3 or not. On the other hand the Cell hype seems to have gotten out of control. The 1000 times the power of a PS 2 statement has become a part of the PS 3 culture already. Having the raw power of the PS 3 being the stuff of legend at this early prelaunch stage could lead to disaster among the hardcore gaming crowd, if the god like power turns out to be a myth once the final console hardware arrives.

What happens if the CPU in the PS 3 is a quad core Power PC chip? While of course that is incredibly powerful, it's hardly mind blowing.

This is indeed the most interesting question. I would love to see it work, but just on a superficial level I think the odds are against it. Why? Because the depressing truth about successful advances in computer technology is that 99% of them are incremental. Just ask Intel. They made their fortune by betting on this principle, and the one time the ditched it and tried to start from scratch with something "revolutionary" was with Itanium... and you see how that has turned out.

That is a very good example using Itanium. Intel and HP have poured a lot of resources into that architechture and as good as it is, it's far from "OMG...it destroys everything". Cell will be intresting but it won't make the earth stand still.

Itanium 2, the REAL first implementation of EPIC ( Itanium 1 was considered by Intel more of a debug platform... ), is not doing that bad considering the market it is in and the tough competition it has from Xeons in that segment already...

Itanium has also been kept backward by having to boast HW backward compatibility for x86 and it is not a processor destined yet for Desktop PCs... Intel never tried yet to design an IPF based system for the desktop segment in which x86 compatibility is even more important.


Again about the 1,000x number: of course people will expect 66 Billion Polygons per second... nothing to look there

The 1,000x figure would make sense ( well close to it ) if you thought about real-world scenarios with complex lighting, NURBS, long and complex shaders, high polygon-counts, higher resolution, complex A.I. and Physics, very high resolution textures... you can build, thanks to the higher bandwidth ( much higher ) and higher flexibility of both CPU and GPU ( and much stronger Integer Capabilities and FP capabilities [the integer processing would be really improoving] ) scenarios which would slow PlayStation 2 SO much that would achieve 1/1.000 ( maybe a bit less ) of the performance PlayStation 3 achieves...

 

[megadrive0088]

I think understand about the 1000x thing.

PS3 will have the effect of being 1000x more than PS2. not in raw spec
(that might be 200~300) but in terms of overall. especially with the added effeciency of PS3 compared to PS2, and all the extra eDRAM, etc.

 

[Vince]

Here's how I read the situation.

He reads it wrong. Somone invite this "enlightened one" over here so we can straighten him out.

As many here have been saying for damn-near 2 years now - Cell is an architecture designed under the aegis of Kutaragi that will allow for a synergy of Sony's future products in a broadband world where pervasive computing is commonplace. Go attand any lecture at any top-10 university in the United States on computing and your bound to hear of a form of pervasive computing and the necessary requirments.

Cell, in one incarnation or another, will be the base of allmost all future Sony products and will allow threw wireless, power and/or broadband for the Sony Group to controll the entire Digitial Media and Content pipeline. By seemlessly allowing all their devices to interact threw one architecture, one ISA - they simplify grately the interconnectivity of they're devices. They day is approaching where you'll buy a PS3 powered by the Cell architecture, and download Digital Content (eg. Spiderman2) created in a Sony Cinema Production House or Music (eg. Pete Yorn's latest album) and using some sort of DRM software like Sony's OpenMG save it to a Blue-Ray disc and/or send it to your Cell powered Clie, or your Cell powered 50" WEGA Plasma, or your Cell powered Sony Shelf-Audio system to play... all with one or two clicks on a remote.

Or take what you can already do using the Infared Port/MagicGate to the next level and take your Digital Pictures and/or Video on a Sony device of your ass pounding down the Tequilla and licking your friend's "chest" clean of salt and lime juice and send it anywhere... either saved on a R-Media or send it threw the 'net - just without the typical PC problems inherient to the very nature of a PC, OS and HAL.

To say that PS3 doesn't fit into this scheme - when the Cell project was initiated under the guise of SCE to power PS3 and only in 2001 when the project was sufficiently proven did Sony Group sign on - is insane. This man's an idiot, he deserves to be chained to a chair and put in a room with Chappers.

I think it was Ken Kutaragi himself who said that Sony to survive in the 21st century needs to differentiate itself from its competition - otherwise it will become another Toshiba or Mashushita that's profits are influenced by the endless productivity wars because they use 3rd party chips. The man's not as stupid as many here make him out to be... I'd say he borders on the brilliant, not "Witten" brilliant, but above most.

 

[V3]

Megadrive... Cell is an architecture, more like IA-32 and IA-64/IPF or SPARC... things like the Broadband Engine and the Visualizer defined in the patent are "implementations" of the Cell architecture.

Cell is more of abstract concept compare to IA-32, etc.

Its a rearrangement of Von Neumann machine IMO.

 

[London Geezer]

This man's an idiot, he deserves to be chained to a chair and put in a room with Chappers.

U CRUEL HORRIBLE SADISTIC BEING!!!!!!!!!!

i wouldn't say that to my worst enemy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jvd]

Or cell can be put into everything that makes up the other half of sony's income. The blurb above from the author of that article just makes things worse. Lets just wait and see. It shouldn't be much longer. Surely we will hear something by next e3 about the ps3 if its going to be launched in 2005.

 

[jvd]

To say that PS3 doesn't fit into this scheme - when the Cell project was initiated under the guise of SCE to power PS3 and only in 2001 when the project was sufficiently proven did Sony Group sign on - is insane. This man's an idiot, he deserves to be chained to a chair and put in a room with Chappers.

I dunno i think being locked in a room with u would be worse than chap. At least chap wouldn't be calling him an idiot when he is just expressing his views.

 

[Paul]

Atleast Vince apply's logic to a given situation instead of rhetoric.

 

[jvd]

Atleast Vince apply's logic to a given situation instead of rhetoric.

Here is logic . Rdy for it ? Cell is designed to be used in many diff products. From cell phones to discmans. Could it just be that do to cost and time constraints the cell chip will be used in Sony tv's , vcr's , dvd players , blue ray players , camera's , video camera's , discmans , walk mans , car raido's and whatever else sony sells. Which accounts for 50% of sonys proffits ? Thus seeding the industry for the console after ps3 to use a version of the cell chip. Due to the ps3 needing to come out at a certian cost and mabye problems in cell production.


Or here is another piece of lodgic . Cell is meant for ps3 since 2001. Sony is god and nothing could ever go wrong for sony. Even though we now have reports that the cell chip wont be in the ps3 and or the ps3 is delayed till 2007 nope it will all be out by 2005 cause sony is gods.


You pick which is more logical . Then read all the posts and see who is putting the logical discusions into the forums .