Cell about to go into mass production.

[Paul]

We can argue all we want, we will see who's right in a year agreed?

 

[DeathKnight]

You're classic, you really are.

And it has been proved WRONG by this news article, why can't you get it?

How has it been proved wrong? Because it's a conflicting report that goes along with what you've been led to believe? Get a clue.

It's called news, they obviously got it from the people who are making the plant correct? Therfor it's true.

No, actually they got it from a "report" from another group who reported nothing but hearsay. It's only true to you because it goes along with what you've been led to believe, or want to believe rather.

Nope, it makes sense that's why.

Actually, it makes sense to you because it falls in line with what you want to believe.

Cell is going into mass production in 2004 as news article suggests, end of story. And at this rate, there is no reason why it shouldn't be in ps3 especially since the article says the chip will go inside ps3. are you saying reuters is lying?

There is no "end of story" until these conflicting reports are cleared up. A report that conflicts with the recent magazine article doesn't somehow make that report official, the truth, or reality by any stretch of the imagination (except for yours ). Am I saying the Reuters report is lying? I'll turn it right around onto you: are you saying the recent magazine article is lying (which is quite detailed on the goings on surrounding the new processor) when they say that Sony stated that the PS3 will not be using the Cell processor?

Wisen up Paul.

 

[DeathKnight]

We can argue all we want, we will see who's right in a year agreed?

Yeah, we will see

However, I get the luxury of not having to feel like a dolt if the Cell does happen to be in the PS3. I'm not diehard for one side or the other. Just remaining cautious on conflicting reports.

 

[Paul]

sony and toshiba are building the factory for the ps3 chips, this was reported on the-magicbox, reuters, and other sources.

How is this wrong? What is so hard to belive? They are building the factory's and they are going to be up and running in 2004, and you don't belive this?

IBM has not announced when it will release the final chip, but the Cell project was originally envisioned as taking five years, suggesting that the final product may not be ready until as late as 2007.

Happen to read the "may" in that? Obviously this turned out to be false, because they are building the factories and they are going to be up and running in 2004.

This article was cleared up by the reuter reports and the others.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Uhm... weird, 2004 is also the date the Toshiba guys were mentioning about the Sony-Toshiba co-developed 65 nm manufacturing process being ready for production...

 

[Vince]

They are both equally useless, even ignoring that they dont even give attributable quotes from an actual person ... they are attributing statements to Sony, does it really matter what they say?

Going to have to agree.

The whole situation as outlayed by Deathknight is basedon some sort of fring pseudo-logic thats nothing more than bullshit.

Lets look at the facts. Sony Group is looking for synergy in the broadband world. As stated by Ando and others, this will be done in the 2005+ timeframe due to an initiative spearheaded by SCE. Under the aegis of Ken Kutaragi, SCE has been investing whats now upwards of a Billion Dollars on the Cell project. Cell is a cellular based computing architecture thats modular and thus scalable (within a single die) to meet the requirements of the entire spectrum of electronic devices.

Now, your proposing that SCE is funneling an additional Billion USD in to a concurrent R&D effort that will produce the PS3's IC? Where's this R&D's funding? It's trail must be as exclusive as the funds devoted by the Pentagon to the Senior xxxx strategic systems operating out of Area51/Groom Lake. We've heard nothing of a R&D effect parrallel to Cell, not whose group is working on it, not where the development is takeing place, nothing.

So, whats more likely.. That SCE, IBM, and Toshiba started the Cell project in 2000 at the behest of Ken Kutaragi and Okamoto to produce a modular architecture that can be used in PS3 and it then aspired and grew to fullfill Kutaragi's vision of Sony in the 21st century and become the base of all Sony Groups' components and then only after the device was solidified did Sony Group sign on officially with funding in 2001. That this architecture will pervade everything branded Sony and will be the 'Back-end' of Sony's Media and Digital Content Creation empire starting with PS3?

Or that it's nothing more than a "Broadband Procesor" and the Billion dollars in R&D is going towards a niche product with another Billion being secretly diverted to a PS3 project.

 

[Panajev2001a]

They are both equally useless, even ignoring that they dont even give attributable quotes from an actual person ... they are attributing statements to Sony, does it really matter what they say?

Going to have to agree.

The whole situation as outlayed by Deathknight is basedon some sort of fring pseudo-logic thats nothing more than bullshit.

Lets look at the facts. Sony Group is looking for synergy in the broadband world. As stated by Ando and others, this will be done in the 2005+ timeframe due to an initiative spearheaded by SCE. Under the aegis of Ken Kutaragi, SCE has been investing whats now upwards of a Billion Dollars on the Cell project. Cell is a cellular based computing architecture thats modular and thus scalable (within a single die) to meet the requirements of the entire spectrum of electronic devices.

Now, your proposing that SCE is funneling an additional Billion USD in to a concurrent R&D effort that will produce the PS3's IC? Where's this R&D's funding? It's trail must be as exclusive as the funds devoted by the Pentagon to the Senior xxxx strategic systems operating out of Area51/Groom Lake. We've heard nothing of a R&D effect parrallel to Cell, not whose group is working on it, not where the development is takeing place, nothing.

So, whats more likely.. That SCE, IBM, and Toshiba started the Cell project in 2000 at the behest of Ken Kutaragi and Okamoto to produce a modular architecture that can be used in PS3 and it then aspired and grew to fullfill Kutaragi's vision of Sony in the 21st century and become the base of all Sony Groups' components and then only after the device was solidified did Sony Group sign on officially with funding in 2001. That this architecture will pervade everything branded Sony and will be the 'Back-end' of Sony's Media and Digital Content Creation empire starting with PS3?

Or that it's nothing more than a "Broadband Procesor" and the Billion dollars in R&D is going towards a niche product with another Billion being secretly diverted to a PS3 project.

Argh... I have to disagree on all points Vince... naaah You know I share your views on this point: as you can read in all the other posts I have made trying to get the same point across

 

[kenneth9265]

Cell is about to go into mass preduction

here is another link from reuters
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....RBAEKSFEY?type=technologyNews&storyID=2595120

 

[Panajev2001a]

Sony to Invest Y200 Bln in Chips in 3 Yrs
Mon April 21, 2003 04:23 AM ET
TOKYO (Reuters) - Sony Corp, the world's largest consumer electronics maker, said on Monday it will spend 200 billion yen ($1.67 billion) over a three-year period on new chip production facilities for cutting-edge 300 mm wafers.
It will invest 73 billion yen of the money in the first year, starting this month, to install the advanced facilities in its chip plant in Nagasaki on Kyushu island in southwest Japan.

The investment is to produce a new microprocessor, code-named "cell," that aims to put the processing power of a supercomputer into game machines and home electronics devices.

The chip, set to debut in 2005, is expected to be used in the next generation of PlayStation game players, the current generation of which has trounced rivals such as Microsoft Corp's Xbox and which is a vital profit engine for Sony.

Sony and its game subsidiary are working with Toshiba Corp T> , Japan's largest chipmaker, and IBM (International Business Machines Corp) on the new microprocessor.

Toshiba said earlier on Monday it will make chips for PlayStation at its own new 200 billion yen plant, at Oita in Kyushu, to come on stream in the business year from April 2004.

It declined to say how much Sony might invest in the plant.

Business newspaper Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported at the weekend that the Sony group would invest 40-50 billion yen, or 20-25 percent of the cost, in a new Toshiba chip facility.

Sony is sharpening its focus on semiconductors, which it considers vital for keeping ahead of rivals as digital home electronics from game machines to TV sets take on sophisticated capabilities such as high-speed Internet connections.

Sony Computer Entertainment says about 50-60 percent of the value of a PlayStation 2 game console is in its semiconductors.

Sony has already spent 84.5 billion yen on a joint plant with Toshiba in Oita that makes microprocessors for PlayStation 2.

Toshiba unveiled plans in December to build another plant at Oita that will use dinner plate-sized 300 mm (12-inch) wafers yielding twice as many chips as the standard 200 mm (8 inch) variety, cutting costs by up to 30 percent.

Toshiba has repeatedly said it would be able to fund from its own resources the nearly $3 billion cost of two new chip plants -- the Oita facility and a memory chip plant in central Japan -- but analysts have said it would need to tap Sony and other partners to share the heavy cost burden.

Shares in Sony closed down 0.26 percent at 3,870 yen while Toshiba rose 1.54 percent to 329 yen.

The Tokyo Stock Exchange's electrical machinery index IELEC.was up 1.01 percent. ($1=119.67 yen)

 

[jvd]

at Toshiba's Oita factory, and planned to have it in operation by 2004

Okay so the way this reads is they planned to have it operational by 2004. Now what does in operation mean ? 10% capacity or 90% capacity ? Enought to make a few million ps3s or enough to make a few cell chips if this factory is indeed used for cell chips?

over a three-year period on new chip production facilities for cutting-edge 300 mm wafers.

Well this article is from 2003 which means they wont be completed for 3 years .

Also not in any part of this article does it say .65 micron only 300mm wafers.

Then there is this which i believe is the most telling

The chip, set to debut in 2005, is expected to be used in the next generation of PlayStation game players

Most of the press is still saying expected. So once again nothing is offical yet. Not only that but sony closed with its stock down for the day. If it was such great new for sony i would think thier stock would rise

 

[jvd]

http://www.flexbeta.net/main/comments.php?id=2202&catid=1


IT SEEMS Nvidia may well be right and the PlayStation 3 – complete with cells and the like will not produce any return on invesment at all.
The Toshiba-Sony cell tech will now cost an absolute fortune – as Nvidia predicted, and if we see it by 2005, we will all, at the INQ, fall over in surprise.

Sony and its partners – we estimate – will have to invest at least four billion dollars into an early release.

Oddly, they don't seem to have that amount of money.

[/quote]

 

[bbot]

Everyone should also remember that the dev. kits need to be in developers hands much earlier. If production starts in 2004, developers will only have one year to develop games for PS3 by 2005, the year PS3 is set to debut. And if that Reuters article is correct then it's even worse.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Simulators guys, simulators...

 

[Panajev2001a]

more comments added ( NEW ):

Sony Splurges on New Plant,Eyes Chip Edge
April 21, 2003 06:57:00 AM ET


By Edmund Klamann

TOKYO (Reuters) - Japan's Sony Corp said on Monday it will spend 200 billion yen ($1.67 billion) in the next three years on a cutting-edge microchip plant as it gears up for a new, chip-hungry generation of game machines and home electronics.

Sony, turning increasingly to semiconductors to gain an edge over rivals, hopes the plant's high-powered microprocessors, code-named ``cell,'' will become a global standard for consumer gadgets and server computers with ultra-fast Internet connections.

``Cell will be the basic processor for building networks,'' Sony Executive Deputy President Ken Kutaragi told a news conference. ``In addition to expanding its use in new applications inside the Sony group, we want to take it outside the home and expand it to a variety of areas.''

Sony, both the world's largest consumer electronics maker and its largest microchip user, is also keen to make more of its chips by itself and use them to keep its products a step ahead of rivals.

``Our chip needs total around one trillion yen (per year),'' Sony President Kunitake Ando said.

``Now, about 20 percent of that is procured within the Sony group, but our internal target is to get to twice that or more.''

Semiconductors account for more than half the value of a PlayStation 2 game console, which has trounced rivals such as Microsoft Corp's Xbox and is a profit engine for Sony.

Kutaragi, who heads the Sony unit that develops and makes the PlayStation, expected that ratio to rise further.

Faced with stiffening competition in consumer electronics from Asian manufacturers like South Korea's Samsung Electronics Co, Sony may have no choice but to take on the hefty investments demanded in the microchip business.

CHIPS AT THE CORE

``Semiconductors will form the core of future digital home electronics and other products. They have to invest if they want to beat the competition,'' said Kiyoshi Yamanaka, portfolio manager at T&D Asset Management.

Sony will spend 73 billion yen during the business year that started on April 1 on a new chip plant near Nagasaki, in southern Japan, that will begin production as early as 2005/06 and aims to cut costs by using large, 300 mm wafers and industry-leading circuitry widths of only 65 nanometers, or billionths of a meter.

[ Edit: this is for a new fab built by Sony after the works on the Oita fab start... This fab in Nagasaki is using 65 nm technology. ]

The company is also considering investing in a cutting-edge plant at Toshiba Corp, Japan's largest chipmaker and Sony's partner in making microprocessors for the PlayStation 2.

Toshiba said on Monday it would spend 40 billion yen this year on the plant, also in southern Japan, which will ultimately cost 200 billion yen and is due to start making PlayStation chips and other products during the next fiscal year from April 2004.

The Nihon Keizai Shimbun daily reported on Monday that Sony looked set to pump 40-50 billion yen into the Toshiba plant.

The Sony group and Toshiba are also working with International Business Machines Corp to develop the cell microprocessor for next-generation Net-connected products.

Kutaragi, considered a strong contender to become Sony's next president, said he expected cell would co-exist with Intel Corp's ubiquitous PC microprocessors despite its lofty ambitions.

``All applications (for microprocessors) will be expanding in the future,'' he told reporters after the news conference.

Media reports over the past several days indicated an announcement was near on Sony's chip investment plans, but details were not released until after the close of Tokyo share trade on Monday.

Sony ended down 0.26 percent at 3,870 yen while Toshiba rose 1.54 percent to 329 yen.

The Tokyo Stock Exchange's electrical machinery index IELEC.was up 1.01 percent. ($1

 

[jvd]

Toshiba said on Monday it would spend 40 billion yen this year on the plant, also in southern Japan, which will ultimately cost 200 billion yen and is due to start making PlayStation chips and other products during the next fiscal year from April 2004.

Could this be yet another die drop on the ps2 chips ? Since its just a vague playstion chips instead of playstation 3 chips .

It sounds from what everyone is saying that the cell chips are going to be extremly expensive . I don't know if they can afford to put the cell chip in there . We also don't know at which plant they plan on making the cell chips at. When it will be done and how well yields will be .

 

[Paul]

Ps2 launched in japan at a US price of like 380 bucks... And it still sold like wildfire, and this was with sony still losing money on each. I reckon they can sell it at 400 on a japan launch and it will sell the same. Then drop it to 300 for a US release.

 

[Geeforcer]

How long has the fab been under construction? If they are just starting, there is absolutely no way they will have any meaningful production out of it in 2004.

 

[jvd]

Ps2 launched in japan at a US price of like 380 bucks... And it still sold like wildfire, and this was with sony still losing money on each. I reckon they can sell it at 400 on a japan launch and it will sell the same. Then drop it to 300 for a US release.

Unless an xbox 2 is out at the time and is priced less. Not only that but if nintendo is also going to launch around the time of the ps3 sony will be in trouble with priceing the system

 

[Paul]

The japanese want ps3, not Xbox2. This is something you fail to realize, Xbox2 can debut at 200 dollars and it still wouldn't sell as much as ps3 in japan.

 

[jvd]

The japanese want ps3, not Xbox2. This is something you fail to realize, Xbox2 can debut at 200 dollars and it still wouldn't sell as much as ps3 in japan.

Unless it has the better games ?