Business Approach Comparison Sony PS4 and Microsoft Xbox

[Deleted member 11852]

Better than Old Europe?

Haha! I know to Americans Europe is old but we border Africa, the Middle East and Asia - regions that had advanced civilisations several millennia before Europeans, who were hitting each other with rocks and not knowing it was Monday

 

[Rangers]

Witcher Dev says Xbox One games aren't 1080P because not enough shaders...

According to the lead engine programmer on The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, the upcoming DirectX 12 update is unlikely to change the resolution issues games are having on the Xbox One.

While speaking with GamingBolt, the developer, Balazs Torok shared his thoughts on the upcoming release of DirectX12.

“I think there is a lot of confusion around what and why DX12 will improve. Most games out there can’t go 1080p because the additional load on the shading units would be too much. For all these games DX12 is not going to change anything"


“They might be able to push more triangles to the GPU but they are not going to be able to shade them, which defeats the purpose. To answer the first question, I think we will see a change in the way graphics programmers will think about their pipelines and this will result in much better systems hopefully.”

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/08...+twitter&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

I had been wondering about the exact culprit, and why no devs had been pinning it on lack of shader grunt, for a while now.

I wanted to business discuss this, because I think this is kind of worst case scenario for MS. If the bottleneck was ESRAM /bandwidth shenanigans or the like, the feeling was to me, that kind of thing could be eventually overcome.

Also it comes from the "lead engine programmer", not some front office lackey who might not know, presumably.

It just makes it even worse to me how MS chose not to enable those two redundant CU's. That would have put X1 at 1.43 teraflops even if they had stayed at 800 mhz (1.53 with 853 mhz, but lets not get crazy assuming MS would have had too much sense and done both). That to me is the key decision of this gen, 2nd only to Sony choosing to go with 8GB.

 

[steveOrino]

It just makes it even worse to me how MS chose not to enable those two redundant CU's. That would have put X1 at 1.43 teraflops even if they had stayed at 800 mhz (1.53 with 853 mhz, but lets not get crazy assuming MS would have had too much sense and done both). That to me is the key decision of this gen, 2nd only to Sony choosing to go with 8GB.

I doubt MS was going to take a bath on only yielding perfect chips. That die is pretty big after all. Kinect proved to be a costly mistake as far as overall system power is concerned.

 

[rockaman]

Oh baby Jesus not another US-EU-Tax-NoTax-Cheap-NotCheap discussion PLEASE!!!!!

You'd think people have seen this before....

 

[Silenti]

I doubt MS was going to take a bath on only yielding perfect chips. That die is pretty big after all. Kinect proved to be a costly mistake as far as overall system power is concerned.

Wonder what they could have done even if they had the extra $100. I don't think they could have made the die any larger if I remember correctly. The ESRAM takes up a ton of space. So you dump Kinect included, have $100 but how would you have increased shader power if the die could not be enlarged and you kept the ESRAM? If they were stuck on ESRAM and DDR3 for long term cost reduction, heck, what other option would there have been? If $400 w/o Kinect is putting them in the same per unit cost range as Sony (breaking even, making a little maybe) what could have been?

 

[Rangers]

I doubt MS was going to take a bath on only yielding perfect chips. That die is pretty big after all. Kinect proved to be a costly mistake as far as overall system power is concerned.

AFAIK yields probably wouldn't have suffered too much. Somebody here posted MS will probably eventually remove the redundant CU's anyway, so they shouldn't be that crucial. I got the impression they were more like an short term aid to tricky-yield early-on fabbing than a necessity.

I don't think they could have made the die any larger if I remember correctly.

Why would you assume that? there are already much larger GPU's up to near 600mm^2 being made.

Anyways no major surgery was needed, with this design MS could likely have just pursed a more aggressive overclock (perhaps 900 mhz) and enabled the redundant CU's to gain crucial gap closing power. And that would have cost a few bucks or 20 I think, nothing in the range of $100.

 

[Phil]

Why would you assume that? there are already much larger GPU's up to near 600mm^2 being made.

Larger in the context of what the machine should do and achieve and run (i.e. not in the fridge of someones kitchen)...

 

[Silenti]

AFAIK yields probably wouldn't have suffered too much. Somebody here posted MS will probably eventually remove the redundant CU's anyway, so they shouldn't be that crucial. I got the impression they were more like an short term aid to tricky-yield early-on fabbing than a necessity.


Why would you assume that? there are already much larger GPU's up to near 600mm^2 being made.

Anyways no major surgery was needed, with this design MS could likely have just pursed a more aggressive overclock (perhaps 900 mhz) and enabled the redundant CU's to gain crucial gap closing power. And that would have cost a few bucks or 20 I think, nothing in the range of $100.

Was certain I read on here somewhere that going to any larger die size would be cost prohibitive not just from a chip standpoint but cooling, power, cost, etc. If it was realistic to increase die size with a saved $100 per unit sans Kinect and a $500 overall price point, then I really wonder what could have been. Ah well. Fun to think about

 

[onQ]

Rumor: Third Party Exclusive Titles Coming To PS4.

Third Party Exclusive Titles Coming To PS4, Developers Moving To Platform With Large Fan Base?

Well known industry insider Tidux strikes again, and this time around with some inside information coming from Cologne, Germany, where GamesCom 2014 will begin in few days. According to Tidux, rumor coming from Cologne states that more third party exclusive titles are coming to Playstation 4 and developers have started moving to platforms with massive fan-base i.e Playstation 4.

PS4

However, Tidux added that official announcement about these third party exclusive will take time and won't happen at GamesCom 2014 but later, probably at E3 2015.

"rumor from Cologne, third-party exclusive titles to #PS4 is coming. developers moving to the platform where the most people are. classic. but nothing that will be presented now, later"

"No, nothing that will be announced during #Gamescom, but rumor among developers #PS4 #dev"

Wouldn't 9 months be a little too early to start running to one console over the other due to install base?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Wouldn't 9 months be a little too early to start running to one console over the other due to install base?

If projections point towards one platform becoming the de facto standard, I'd say not. You want to make these choices ASAP to maximise benefits over losses.

That said, I don't see why unless XB1's proving more trouble to port to than its worth. You'd need a situation where dropping XB1 and 33% (25% down the road?) of your sales is a net gain. Perhaps for some really small studios who'll go with a port if they have a success with the PS4 title? I guess I could see some Japanese studios going PS only. Well, that's certain for some games anyway (Mah Jong Monsters).

 

[steveOrino]

Yeah, I can definitely see more Japanese studios go PS only then last gen. Perhaps Monster Hunter could be making its way back to Playstation for instance.

 

[Shortbread]

I saw the commercials mentioned in this article a week ago, and thought to myself, MS is really pandering now... which has never been their style for the most part.

The real issue MS needs to correct isn't its pricing model or even Kinect to a certain extent... but the obvious gap of quality AAA titles that their internal teams aren't providing. Could you imagine if PS3 didn't have all the internal teams to provide for it? PS3 would have been a total disaster... PS3 saving grace was the power of its internal teams, not the almighty Cell. Ultimately what I'm getting at; is that MS needs to develop/nurture it's internal teams as Sony/Nintendo does... maybe then XB1 sales will gain traction based on such works. This dependency on exclusive rights and Multiplatform timed exclusives, doesn't work anymore, especially this time around.

 

[steveOrino]

I saw the commercials mentioned in this article a week ago, and thought to myself, MS is really pandering now... which has never been their style for the most part.

The real issue MS needs to correct isn't its pricing model or even Kinect to a certain extent... but the obvious gap of quality AAA titles that their internal teams aren't providing. Could you imagine if PS3 didn't have all the internal teams to provide for it? PS3 would have been a total disaster... PS3 saving grace was the power of its internal teams, not the almighty Cell. Ultimately what I'm getting at; is that MS needs to develop/nurture it's internal teams as Sony/Nintendo does... maybe then XB1 sales will gain traction based on such works. This dependency on exclusive rights and Multiplatform timed exclusives, doesn't work anymore, especially this time around.

Off-topic question to MS... If XB1 is Rocky in his prime, is PS4 Mike Tyson in his prime? Because there is no question who would win those bouts. In other words, that commercial leads to many opposing views - good or bad.

Always been curious to me. I thought during the Xbox and 360 eras MS would have built their own powerhouse of first party development studio subsidiaries.

But they never did.

With Bungie leaving, Epic getting out of the game business, Rare's corpse being reduced to making Kinect shovelware (not to mention the jury is still out on 343 industries after what they did with Halo 4 and a new gears from an unknown studio). I feel all that time lost not creating and building studios really bit them in the ass. Just look at the exclusive 360 lineup post Kinect 1. This problem was a long time coming.

 

[Sonic]

The more lopsided sales become the more 3rd parties are likely to target the platform with the greatest share of the market. This is nothing new and to be expected. It's still too early in the generation to tell if it will be an ongoing trend or if just a select few 3rd parties default to PS4. Sales of both platforms will ultimately effect the outcome of the amount of 3rd party games on one console over the other.

If PS4 has a 3:1 advantage after this holiday season then I expect more devs to focus on PS4 with more resources than put into XB1 development. I still think there's going to be plentiful multi-platform games but the quality could end up suffering for many XB1 versions. MS's in a tough position at the moment and needs a strong holiday in North America if it has any hopes of staying competitive this year. If XB1 loses holiday sales by a large margin then it's likely to get hammered the rest of the generation.

 

[Shortbread]

The more lopsided sales become the more 3rd parties are likely to target the platform with the greatest share of the market. This is nothing new and to be expected. It's still too early in the generation to tell if it will be an ongoing trend or if just a select few 3rd parties default to PS4. Sales of both platforms will ultimately effect the outcome of the amount of 3rd party games on one console over the other.

If PS4 has a 3:1 advantage after this holiday season then I expect more devs to focus on PS4 with more resources than put into XB1 development. I still think there's going to be plentiful multi-platform games but the quality could end up suffering for many XB1 versions. MS's in a tough position at the moment and needs a strong holiday in North America if it has any hopes of staying competitive this year. If XB1 loses holiday sales by a large margin then it's likely to get hammered the rest of the generation.

But this doesn't explain the lack of AAA titles from MS internal teams… regardless of what place they may be in.

I remember a topic/poll on a major game site asking “what was your primary reason for purchasing the PS4, XB1, or Wii U?”. PS4 users stated “Sony's games”… Nintendo users stated “Nintendo's games”… XB1 users stated “Kinect”.

So my question becomes… how does MS overcome the now somewhat defunct Kinect, without having the strong internal development house(s) compared to its competitors?

 

[BRiT]

Halo.

 

[Sonic]

But this doesn't explain the lack of AAA titles from MS internal teams… regardless of what place they may be in.

I remember a topic/poll on a major game site asking “what was your primary reason for purchasing the PS4, XB1, or Wii U?”. PS4 users stated “Sony's games”… Nintendo users stated “Nintendo's games”… XB1 users stated “Kinect”.

So my question becomes… how does MS overcome the now somewhat defunct Kinect, without having the strong internal development house(s) compared to its competitors?

Well my post didn't attempt to explain the lack of AAA titles from MS's 1st parties. My post was about 3rd parties, not 1st parties.

But if we must. MS's weak 1st party teams are a fault that MS has needed to correct for a while now. It seems when an internal team's games aren't successful MS would rather cut them loose instead of investing into the teams more in order to create a solid library. They didn't need to rely on 1st party that much with the 360 but still had solid, quality titles with their 1st parties. The Halo and Forza series stand out as games and franchises that are high in quality. The variety might not be there and that is something MS will now need to develop if it intends to capture a wider audience. They need to invest in developing competent teams that can cover a broad variety of genres, or pay 3rd parties for exclusivity. Kinect wasn't a big selling point from the gate so MS was right to cut it and gain additional sales at a lower price point. They can also lower the price to an appropriate $300 for the core system that would actually be worth it.

MS isn't out of the race yet and still has the Halo anthology coming up. That game alone could be enough to seal XB1 as the dominant console in the US, although I find it highly unlikely. MS can still potentially have a hit with Kinect on its hands if it ever decides to find a way to make compelling must-have content for it, which I find less likely as time passes.

Even with all the discussion of 1st parties it is the 3rd parties which I find more interesting in their behavior. If 3rd start focusing on PS4 due to its higher sales it could end up having a feedback effect where PS4 continues to outsell and gain the largest share of the market. 1st parties are required for diversity and exclusive games, but if a platform wins the 3rd parties over it usually ends up winning the generation, by a sizable margin. And this is the reason why MS needs to fight tooth and nail to get as much of the pie as they can now. Sony's got this huge momentum going and it's going to be growing stronger going into the holiday season.

 

[Shortbread]

Halo.

Then what?

Yes, I understand Halo is quite a large IP, started by Bungie… but how long does that last (system sales wise)?

Please don’t take me as being combative or negative towards MS… I’m just trying to figure out how does MS be competitive from an internal gaming standpoint, when exclusives are more than likely timed or just going strictly multiplatform.

 

[zed]

from wiki

United States
343 Industries – Halo series
Good Science Studio – Kinect Adventures, Kinect Fun Labs
Kids and Lifestyle Entertainment – Xbox Fitness
Leap Experience Pioneers – In-house Kinect development team
Platform Next Studios – Pioneering experiences on Kinect
Microsoft Studios – Mobile Gaming – ilomilo
Team Dakota – Project Spark
Turn 10 Studios – Forza Motorsport series
Twisted Pixel Games – The Gunstringer, LocoCycle, 'Splosion Man series
Xbox Live Productions – South Park Let's Go Tower Defense Play!, South Park: Tenorman's Revenge, Avatar Kinect

Europe
Lionhead Studios – Fable series, Black & White series
Lift London – Cloud digital games for tablets, mobiles and TVs
Press Play – Max: The Curse of Brotherhood, Project Totem[34]
Rare Ltd. – Banjo-Kazooie series, Viva Piñata, Kameo: Elements of Power, Conker, Kinect Sports
Soho Productions – Kinect Sesame Street TV, Upload Studios

Canada
BigPark – Joy Ride series, Kinect Sports: Season Two, Multiple applications for Xbox One
Black Tusk Studios – Gears of War series

 

[steveOrino]

from wiki

United States
Good Science Studio – Kinect Adventures, Kinect Fun Labs
Kids and Lifestyle Entertainment – Xbox Fitness
Leap Experience Pioneers – In-house Kinect development team
Platform Next Studios – Pioneering experiences on Kinect

Europe
Rare Ltd. – Banjo-Kazooie series, Viva Piñata, Kameo: Elements of Power, Conker, Kinect Sports
Soho Productions – Kinect Sesame Street TV, Upload Studios

Canada
BigPark – Joy Ride series, Kinect Sports: Season Two, Multiple applications for Xbox One

Any idea what the Kinect only studios are going to do?