That I d definitely useThere's Smartglass for that. That's the great thing about theses devices. We have lots of choices. Yay for us!
Tommy McClain
Business Approach Comparison Sony PS4 and Microsoft Xbox
- Thread starter BRiT
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The point being is that there are obvious times where voice control has an advantage over a controller when it comes to ease of use. And how you feel as an individual means nothing in and of itself, when we are talking general consumer products.
The cellphone marketshare of WinMo, Symbian and Blackberry did nothing to show how willingly the general market would accept smartphones.
I think using a display to control a device that has its own display is less intuitive than an interface that doesn't need a display nor need direct your eyes away from the primary display. Do I think that second displays are useless to incorporate. No. To each his own. A good device tends to cater to various preferences.
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Kinect 2 may be seen as gimmicky as the WiiU Pad.
The question is, will K2 hamstring the other aspects of the console, namely the performance, as much as the WiiU Pad has?
Remains to be seen.
It's interesting though that the WiiU Pad is widely seen as gimmicky for the sake of gimmicks but some people are willing to cut MS some slack that K2 sets it apart from another ho-hum console.
In fact, some of the same people probably think Nintendo deserves the poor sales of the WiiU because of the gimmick.
The question is, will K2 hamstring the other aspects of the console, namely the performance, as much as the WiiU Pad has?
Remains to be seen.
It's interesting though that the WiiU Pad is widely seen as gimmicky for the sake of gimmicks but some people are willing to cut MS some slack that K2 sets it apart from another ho-hum console.
In fact, some of the same people probably think Nintendo deserves the poor sales of the WiiU because of the gimmick.
The issue I have with using a tablet as a second screen, to control the box, is that when I'm watching entertainment, I'm usually also engaged on my tablet doing something else and changing that context to control the box isn't something I want to do. My understanding from the data I've seen is that this pattern is common.
It's the reason I don't use my tablet to control my entertainment system today even though I can, the physical remote doesn't require me to lose the context of what I'm doing on the tablet.
Gaming is different, because it requires my attention, so about the only thing I do on a tablet is browse for help. But MS is trying to span both, Kinect might be compelling, it's hard to predict IMO. As an example I thought my logitech 880 remote would have been useful, but I ended up hating it because of a couple of what would seem to be minor annoyances, the more recent Harmony Smart control however I love.
I wouldn't have used Video chat by choice until I was forced to for work and found the experience compelling.
Living with something is often very different than what you imagine.
It's the reason I don't use my tablet to control my entertainment system today even though I can, the physical remote doesn't require me to lose the context of what I'm doing on the tablet.
Gaming is different, because it requires my attention, so about the only thing I do on a tablet is browse for help. But MS is trying to span both, Kinect might be compelling, it's hard to predict IMO. As an example I thought my logitech 880 remote would have been useful, but I ended up hating it because of a couple of what would seem to be minor annoyances, the more recent Harmony Smart control however I love.
I wouldn't have used Video chat by choice until I was forced to for work and found the experience compelling.
Living with something is often very different than what you imagine.
D
Deleted member 11852
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I think the degree of awesome, or to use a another word, usefulness, probably depends how much time an individual actually spends in the interface of a console.
This will obviously vary person to person and will probably also change over time as the interfaces evolve and offer new features but generally navigating a menus on a consumption device: a console, XBMC, an iPad, is what I do between the main event - i.e. finishing using one game/application and moving to another. It represents the in-between of usage, it doesn't define it.
Now there certainly is scope for voice control to be truly useful. I would really appreciate being able to couple Kinect to XBMC and let it filter my 1000+ movie library and 40,000+ music library by year and/or artists/actor and/or genre because these kind of things are awkward in simple most interfaces.
But being able to switch from TV to game back to TV back to game. I simply don't do it. My friends, as best as I've observed, don't do it. But no doubt it'll resonate with attention-starved teenagers
I think the degree of awesome, or to use a another word, usefulness, probably depends how much time an individual actually spends in the interface of a console.
This will obviously vary person to person and will probably also change over time as the interfaces evolve and offer new features but generally navigating a menus on a consumption device: a console, XBMC, an iPad, is what I do between the main event - i.e. finishing using one game/application and moving to another. It represents the in-between of usage, it doesn't define it.
Now there certainly is scope for voice control to be truly useful. I would really appreciate being able to couple Kinect to XBMC and let it filter my 1000+ movie library and 40,000+ music library by year and/or artists/actor and/or genre because these kind of things are awkward in simple most interfaces.
But being able to switch from TV to game back to TV back to game. I simply don't do it. My friends, as best as I've observed, don't do it. But no doubt it'll resonate with attention-starved teenagers
PS3 was my primary game interface this gen. I really like the crossbar idea. However, when i had to scroll left, click then up or down to do a system update i was always annoyed. When i had to scroll across to and down to the pS Store as opposed to hitting PS Home by mistake i was annoyed...
I would love to say "playstation update" Or "playstation show me movies" No need to hit PS button, quit the game then use the crossbar unless i prefer to.
The HDMI-In is a value add as it enables functions that are literally impossible without it at this time. That is the only thing I'm arguing. It may not be as important as some think. Especially since it will be less useful in some locales than others. And as I've said many times I think $500 is too expensive for this product and that was before the PS4 came in at $400. To me, price was their single biggest mis-step and that's saying something.
As for judging based on myself, I have found that most members of this board are extremely poor at predicting the perception of value of others. It seems that most are unable to sufficiently divorce their own preferences from their thinking to be objective. Then you have people trying to predict consumer behavior on a not just a national, but a global scale when they have little to no knowledge of consumer attitudes outside their own and those of the people they associate with. So, I don't usually try to make those sorts of predictions and when I do I am usually clear that it is pure speculation on my part. Most of what I've been arguing here is that you shouldn't either.
MS is promoting a product. Saying it's going to be the greatest thing ever is kind of what you would expect. I don't think any posters actually presented the argument in the way that you did in the post I was responding to. It looked like a straw-man to me. But if you can produce a quote, I'll stand corrected.
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm saying you don't have a grasp on the sizes of the different groups. I believe you're low-balling the numbers of people for whom this will be useful. In the US specifically the STB->TV model is ubiquitous. Most have two or three of these things in their house hooked up to their TVs. So, in this large and important market, I can tell you that the fact that you need to have a STB to get TV is a complete non-issue. That's not to say that it wouldn't be preferable to many to be able to completely replace their STB, but not many would see the need to have one as a negative. They already have them.
No, I'm not. You are. I'm suggesting you don't. If I were basing things on my opinion I'd say no one would want one since I don't.
None of these companies' strategies are a guaranteed success.
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I dunno, I figure they need to ask themselves can they sell all they can make in the next 6 months at $500? If they can then it's the right price. Why lose money per console sold if they don't need to. When viewed as purely a typical console gamer audience then $500 may seem high, but given that Kinect is in the box and seeing what functionality they are offering I'd say they clearly aren't just targeting typical console gamers. I think it's safe to say they will sell out all they can make this year, but how long into next year can they hold onto the $500 slot remains to be seen.
I never said HDMI-in wont add any value to anyone. What I question is the value proposition for the price and the size of the market willing to pay for it
You are no different. So?
Ahm....yeah? Thats the point?
All you have to do is go back and read the immediate responses and arguments following MS's first press conference. Dont expect me to start mining for quotes and then end up with a chain reaction arguing what the quotes meant and what they didnt.
And here you are falling to the group of people were they base their argument on a national scale. Not to mention that you selectively ignore or dont ignore many other variables mentioned according to the quote you are replying to.
You see? Everyone who has a different opinion than yours you immediately assume they fall in that group. But you never consider yourself as being in one. And for the record, I never said NO ONE would want one either. But you made the assumption
Then you should accept as well the possibility that the appeal may not be as large as you are trying to convince
Which you called a "handful".
Clearly.
Are you implying that people who think these features are appealing are just parroting what MS has told them and haven't done any independent thinking.to arrive at their conclusion? I'm not really sure of your point, actually.
I am familiar with the arguments. I was there. I commented at the time about how US-centric the reveal was. I never saw anyone argue that HDMI-In, specifically, provided a permanent advantage to the XBOne and that there was never going to be a way to reach relative feature parity without it. I suspect that argument is a conflation of other arguments that you have created in your head.
You were listing your own perceptions of value. What did you want me to argue with? Anyone can look at those same variables and depending on how they weigh them come to completely different conclusions and they'd all be right as long as they were just talking about themselves.
The US is a large enough market that even if MS only sold consoles here it could still be successful in absolute terms. Relative to PS4, maybe not. But I'm not viewing this in those terms. So when I take issue with your assessment that these features are only relevant to a "limited" market and a "handful" of people it's because I think in absolute terms (as in actual numbers of people) it's a high limit and much more than a handful.
Not everyone. Just you. And I never said you said "no one" or "not anyone" nor did I think you did. You said "a handful". I think that's wrong, yes, based on the reasons I've stated. If you'd like to rebut those instead of what you think I've said or what you think I think then go ahead. It'd be a nice change.
Since I've only said I thought the appeal was going to be greater than "a handful" I think I'm on pretty safe ground, but sure it's possible I'm wrong. I just don't think it's likely.
How quickly can they do a price drop without:
A: Looking desperate?
B: Upsetting the early adopters who just paid $500 for their system?
If there are systems sitting on shelves come January a la the PS3 and the PS4 is still scarce then they have a real problem.
RancidLunchmeat
Veteran
I really don't get the confusion with voice controls.
Does anybody have an Android phone? I just got a Nexus 5 and with Google Now, it's pretty cool to say "Okay Google. Text Tommy. Hey loser, nobody likes you."
All without touching the phone or doing anything, it sends a text to Tommy saying "Hey loser, nobody likes you"
I understand that phones are different. The keyboards are small and especially on touch screens it can be difficult to type and it might be easier in this case to use voice commands (and it is). But I certainly see the same conditions existing when you are laying on the couch watching a movie and want to send a message over Live or switch to watch a football game without looking around and trying to figure out where the controller is.
Maybe I'm just more drunk than the rest of you. <shrug>
Does anybody have an Android phone? I just got a Nexus 5 and with Google Now, it's pretty cool to say "Okay Google. Text Tommy. Hey loser, nobody likes you."
All without touching the phone or doing anything, it sends a text to Tommy saying "Hey loser, nobody likes you"
I understand that phones are different. The keyboards are small and especially on touch screens it can be difficult to type and it might be easier in this case to use voice commands (and it is). But I certainly see the same conditions existing when you are laying on the couch watching a movie and want to send a message over Live or switch to watch a football game without looking around and trying to figure out where the controller is.
Maybe I'm just more drunk than the rest of you. <shrug>
I use Siri to set reminders, open apps, text, etc.
But I mostly do it in the car.
If you have a surround sound system with a receiver, how do you decode the surround sound tracks from your TV and game control and feed your surround sound speakers?
Wouldn't you have to feed the X1 to one of the receiver's inputs and then the receiver to the TV?
So if you want surround sound, you can't route your source devices through the X1, can you?
I have PS3, Apple TV, Tivo, Blu-Ray player all feeding through my receiver. If I get an X1, then what?
But I mostly do it in the car.
If you have a surround sound system with a receiver, how do you decode the surround sound tracks from your TV and game control and feed your surround sound speakers?
Wouldn't you have to feed the X1 to one of the receiver's inputs and then the receiver to the TV?
So if you want surround sound, you can't route your source devices through the X1, can you?
I have PS3, Apple TV, Tivo, Blu-Ray player all feeding through my receiver. If I get an X1, then what?
I don't see why not, my TV does surround pass through, so I don't see why xbox can't.
The way I was going to wire mine was from the output of the receiver to the TV, I assume it can probably do source selection on the receiver. But that leaves the how to get surround to the receiver issue. I assume MS has some story on how to connect through a receiver, given the average MS employee is likely to have one.
Maybe there's a manual online somewhere about how to connect.
Since they want it to be the primary input on the TV and be always on, the documentation should point that out.
Otherwise, most people may try to connect it like previous consoles, to a free input on the receiver or TV.
My receiver has 2 "Game" inputs.
Since they want it to be the primary input on the TV and be always on, the documentation should point that out.
Otherwise, most people may try to connect it like previous consoles, to a free input on the receiver or TV.
My receiver has 2 "Game" inputs.
RancidLunchmeat
Veteran
I think a better question might be: What do those "game" inputs do differently than any of the other inputs? Are they scaling images or locking frame rates like other game modes on TV inputs?
Also, I think the other big feature with Kinect2 is that it is supposed to recognize different voices. For example, after I wrote this message I sent Tommy a message via voice doing what I just said I did above, and it worked perfectly. But I grabbed my phone and went upstairs because somebody else was watching TV downstairs and I didn't know if that would confuse the input on the Nexus.
According to what MS has promoted, that wouldn't be an issue with Kinect2 because it would ignore all other voices (including those coming out of the TV) and only be listening to my unique voice print. (Or the unique voice print of any users logged into the system.)
If it really works that way, if MS can really deliver with Kinect2, what they have promised they can, it will be awesome.
As far as using Siri only in the car, is that because that's the only place that it's most applicable to use voice commands, or is it because that is the place that is most unfriendly to using touch commands?
There's a difference there. Meaning it might also be more applicable to other circumstances, you just don't use it in those situations because you are used to just using thumb inputs. The voice commands might work better even if not in the car, you just never use it that way because there's no downside to using thumb controls so you've never tried?
..just asking here. I don't use my phone for anything other than streaming radio or GPS in my car anyway.
Sometimes I use Siri at home or at the office.
Just as easy to tap a few letters to open game I want.
Yes I want to minimize taps while driving. Other nice thing is Siri will do some operations without my having to unlock the phone -- tap in my code.
But I could use it more, like ask how the markets closed, what the NBA scores were, etc. which doesn't require any taps.
I suppose saying ESPN rather than tapping the channel number that I know by feel on my Tivo remote would cut some steps. But when I want to play back a recording, which is what I do for all my TV watching except live sports, will Kinect know to play the recording that I want and then delete when I'm done?
Just as easy to tap a few letters to open game I want.
Yes I want to minimize taps while driving. Other nice thing is Siri will do some operations without my having to unlock the phone -- tap in my code.
But I could use it more, like ask how the markets closed, what the NBA scores were, etc. which doesn't require any taps.
I suppose saying ESPN rather than tapping the channel number that I know by feel on my Tivo remote would cut some steps. But when I want to play back a recording, which is what I do for all my TV watching except live sports, will Kinect know to play the recording that I want and then delete when I'm done?
That's the set-up that IMO makes the most sense if you want to have ALL sources that are hooked up to your AVR pass through the Xbox One's overlay. Technically, the easiest to pass the sound back to the AVR would be through the optical link.
This would present some flaws though:
Would you want sound from the Xbox overlay (for example; if you receive a message to have an audible ping)? If yes, you would have to configure all your sources to use that optical in from the Xbox as the source. So if you're watching a movie on your mediabox, you would have the input on your AVR be selected to mediabox and the hdmi from there would connect to the Xbox and from there go to your TV. In this example; you would lose Hi-Def Surround support (no DTS-HD).
The other solution would be to have your sources to be configured to get the sound from the HDMI and then you would not lose these high quality codecs. This means though that the HDMI overlay would be silent (no sound) until it switches the input on your receiver to the configured source for the Xbox.
Just as an added information: Any input switching that would be done by having the Xbox switch the AVR or TVs input source would not be seamless, but would likely have a 2-4 second black screen and sound blackout. IMO these are the chinks that *I* would find annoying in the whole experience, which would probably see me ditch it completely.
Well pardon me for not using " " to highlight that it was in relative terms
You probably have short term memory or we lost track of what we were saying because I feel this is evolving as an ego battle of two titans instead of a constructive discussion between two crazy motherfuckers. But let me refresh your mind. That was directed, not to the group of people that find it appealing for their selves. It was directed to those that consider many of these features to be exclusive to XB1 indefinitely and believe that because it appeals to them, it should appeal to the majority of the market and those that dont find it appealing its because they dont get it.
You didnt get what I said. You may be familiar but you bring them only when you find it necessary. You just inform the other person that you are aware of them, but when it comes to your argument, you tend to leave them out because they dont handshake really well
What happened is that you made an assumption about me because anyone who brings up the possibility that the appeal will not be as wide as you believe, you immediately label him and discredit him as more biased than the person who shares the same opinion as yours
If I did list my own perceptions of value that also counts perfectly for you. Labeling me as more bias than you and misinterpreting my posts because of your misjudgement about me is not an argument
The discussion was NEVER about whether the XB1 will be a failure or a success. So that POV is already irrelevant.
Really? A few posts earlier you were talking about MANY. Observe:
And yes I said a handful. Again my apologies for not using " ". But you said quote for quote: If I were basing things on my opinion I'd say no one would want one since I don't.
Thats different than me saying the word "handful" without defining how big that handful is.
Let me also remind you EXACTLY what I said:
At this point. Not indefinitely. For the after-point period I brought many questions and mentioned many other variables
You got stack on the word "handful" which is just a word up in the air .
You believe its more likely that more new comers will start jumping from the get go because of HDMI In
I believe its more likely that new comers will be less and the majority will be coming from existing market. Aaaaandd.....thats it.
Just two different opinions. Nothing more, nothing less.
RancidLunchmeat
Veteran
I'm more surprised that either of you think there will actually be "new comers" at all.
I would say though, that if there are a measurable amount of new comers to either console, I'm at a loss to see what would attract them to the PS4. I can see the One on Ellen and Good Morning America and showing off Kinect2 and the entertainment integration and having the housewives OOOooooH and AaaaaHhh just like they did with the Wii and that possibly leading to sales to a new demographic that hadn't previously purchased an Xbox or PS.
But even then, MS is in a tough spot because they need the press now, at launch. But now, at launch, they will be supply constrained and they've priced themselves out of that market anyway.
So, ehhh. I doubt either console attracts any significant amount of new comers. The housewives amazed at what they see on the Today Show are going to think it's neat and then immediately forget about it after they find out the price. And as I said above, with Sony's focus firmly on improving the native gaming experience, I don't see any hook to newcomers.
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