Business Approach Comparison Sony PS4 and Microsoft Xbox

[Blazkowicz]

This and the inability to insert the XBOne past the point of an A/V receiver in a signal chain (because how then would you get XBOne audio?) are the two main flaws I see with the implementation.

You could split the console's hdmi out into video, fed to the TV, and audio you pump back to the receiver?
Alternatively you plug a tuner or cable box or ISP box into the xbox, xbox into receiver, and forget about having every peripheral connected to the xbox. That's what you want if you want to use another console without lag.

 

[joker454]

HDMI IN is only useful if you have a HDMI out signal with whatever it is you want to overlay with a XB1 interface. I am sure that there will be people that will buy whatever is needed so that they can get their TV into the XB1.But you do understand that it's not a world standard to have a TV signal as a HDMI out signal?

Wait, just six years ago people were lambasting the Xbox 360 for not having hdmi out, how it was already outdated out of the box and not in tune where things were going. So am I to understand now that hdmi is dead and has been replaced world wide with another connector, and that there aren't millions upon millions of devices connected with hdmi cables out on the wild?

And lets play with the idea that it is going to take over the living room. So you turn on you XB1 when you want to watch TV, but of course. And the WII, PS4, WDTV is still connected to my TV, the XB1 might be able to switch to them but the interface is gone when Skype is calling and so is the sound.

If you are buying every console then you are already a customer, so who cares in that case. You have to think about the customers that don't want multiple boxes because they cost too much or a spouse thinks it all looks too messy or the customer doesn't care to own more than one or the customer has no interest in game consoles or whatever. Those people typically have just one or two devices connected right now, their tv receiver and a movie player (dvd or bluray). Those people rarely change tv inputs, they don't have Harmony remotes, they don't like things complicated, and they are a good target for the xb1 as unifying entertainment device that oh yeah, also happens to play games but in many cases that will be it's secondary function.

It just seems so old fashioned and stale that they really think everything starts and stops with a ordinary tv today. And on top of that they have a one way of how it's going to work, ignoring millions of potential customers.

I admit I chuckled at the "old fashioned" comment given that console gamers are so attached to their 1980's era shiny game discs whereas everyone else has moved on to the all digital age. I think you overestimate how far ahead the tech curve the console audience is compared to others. In any case they aren't ignoring anyone, the box can still be used as a bog standard console for those that only want that, but it turns out it can do much more for others so inclined.

 

[Nesh]

So, is XB1 a receiver? No, you should use it with the output of a receiver. So It's a receiver receiver.
But all along we assumed the TV was "dumb", and that's an outdated way of seeing things, TVs are getting smart so they can overlay and squish stuff, too. I.e. you will plug your receiver receiver into a receiver receiver receiver.

I am not so sure the XB1 will be relevant once TV's have an overlay function themselves. The HDMI handshake between TV and console could pretty much evolve to what MS wants to achieve through the XB1. But you would be able to do it with any TV connected device that supports handshake without the need to add fancy HDMI IN and multiple OS functions on the console/other device.
i.e Imagine if you can use your game controller or TV remote controller to control both and switch to apps and functions between each without having to change controllers.
TVs already have an Picture in Picture function anyways. They need to evolve that with HDMI handshake

 

[joker454]

I think we should apply a bit of common-sense here. You may be one of the few who did a 180° - but then again, judging from your past posts on the subject, you don't exactly strike as the most loyal Xbox consumer who has invested thousands of dollars into their platform.

How do you know I'm one of the few? Because The Internets (tm) says so? The internet says quite a few things that are wrong, like that the Wii was going to be a total failure. In my case yeah I used to have multiple consoles and devices, six in total, all connected via that apparently outdated connector that no one uses anymore called hdmi. But now I have just two, my DirecTV receiver and a gaming pc. That's because the consoles and other devices didn't keep up with the times and were all easily replaced with a single gaming pc. That's their fault for staying with an antiquated model, not mine. The main issue we have now is input switching, something my wife patently hates and for the most part will not bother with. That's where an xb1 has some interest, but they lost me when they killed the other aspects of the box that were of great interest to me. If their ui and tv related stuff pans out then I may return.

The people that were raging about Microsofts decisions were their own Xbox customers - and when their existing fanbase is not happy and thinking of either jumping ship or leaving to the PC or the competing platform all together, I think there is a point to be made that maybe, something went wrong. Or do you think the 'new audience' Microsoft is now suddenly targeting will make up for it on the grounds of exciting new TV features?

People rage about everything on the internet. In this case once the rage extended to mainstream media Microsoft had to back down. I still think that was a mistake, there are far far greater markets out there than just console gamers who represent a tiny sliver of it all. Anyways this has been covered a ton, I don't care to go over it again.

I wonder how many Joker454s there are outthere and how they stack up against the majority of current Xbox consumers who bought a Xbox because of its dedicated gaming abilty.

That's your key mistake, thinking "current". Don't think current, heck there wasn't even an iPhone out when the current consoles came out just like that video mentioned. It's a different world now, those stuck in the past will ultimately be left there.

 

[-tkf-]

Wait, just six years ago people were lambasting the Xbox 360 for not having hdmi out, how it was already outdated out of the box and not in tune where things were going. So am I to understand now that hdmi is dead and has been replaced world wide with another connector, and that there aren't millions upon millions of devices connected with hdmi cables out on the wild?

My TV lacks a HDMI out , is that a standard elsewhere? Or did you just miss the point?

You have to think about the customers that don't want multiple boxes because they cost too much or a spouse thinks it all looks too messy or the customer doesn't care to own more than one or the customer has no interest in game consoles or whatever. Those people typically have just one or two devices connected right now, their tv receiver and a movie player (dvd or bluray). Those people rarely change tv inputs, they don't have Harmony remotes, they don't like things complicated, and they are a good target for the xb1 as unifying entertainment device that oh yeah, also happens to play games but in many cases that will be it's secondary function.

Doesn't sound like a classic XBOX buyer, but maybe they are aiming for something different than their core audience..

I admit I chuckled at the "old fashioned" comment given that console gamers are so attached to their 1980's era shiny game discs whereas everyone else has moved on to the all digital age. I think you overestimate how far ahead the tech curve the console audience is compared to others. In any case they aren't ignoring anyone, the box can still be used as a bog standard console for those that only want that, but it turns out it can do much more for others so inclined.

TV is old, i should know, i work with it for a living
But chuckle all you want, how flow TV can be compared to the right to own what you buy is something that you must workout with yourself

 

[blakjedi]

My TV lacks a HDMI out , is that a standard elsewhere? Or did you just miss the point?


Doesn't sound like a classic XBOX buyer, but maybe they are aiming for something different than their core audience..


TV is old, i should know, i work with it for a living
But chuckle all you want, how flow TV can be compared to the right to own what you buy is something that you must workout with yourself

I hope you mean IN

 

[warb]

Would it be wrong to plug an AVr/AMP straight into XBone and use the other audio-out on the console or TV to loop back. Downsides?

 

[-tkf-]

I don't understand your point. Whatever your HDMI signal has, it's what you want to see on your TV, and XB1 overlays onto that.

Ideally you don't have those other devices. You just have XB1. And if you have got a PS4 as well, MS hope you'll buy the XB1 version of games because they let you indulge in the TV++ experience and you'd rather have that convenience and functionality over the better resolution of the PS4 game.

Spoiler

If you've got a Wii, that's in the cupboard gathering dust so is a non-issue

But overlaying on anything but my TV signal is kind a against the XB1 idea , since it does make the TV TV SPORT SPORT thingy a bit, shall we say dead? HDMI from my PC, my PS3? PS4? So i choose one of them to overlay, though it will gain me nothing, except having to turn on my XB1.

My WII is being used more than one should expect , Mario!

 

[blakjedi]

But overlaying on anything but my TV signal is kind a against the XB1 idea , since it does make the TV TV SPORT SPORT thingy a bit, shall we say dead? HDMI from my PC, my PS3? PS4? So i choose one of them to overlay, though it will gain me nothing, except having to turn on my XB1.

My WII is being used more than one should expect , Mario!

you have a thing with that dont you? You keep repeating it like its true... or even valid.

The XB is on anyway...

 

[Nesh]

I hope you mean IN

Dude how can his TV have HDMI out and not HDMI in???
Basically if you dont have a cable or satellite box, you dont get the ONEness.

 

[Cyan]

Not really. Think of it from a developer perspective like the video above suggests, Microsoft can offer a write once run anywhere situation, with anywhere being every device they make be it desktop pc, tablet, laptop, phone, console, etc. They aren't quite there yet but getting closer everyday. This is a developer situation of great value and unique to them, Sony can't offer that.




Likewise with hdmi in, Sony can't replicate that out of the box and personally I think the importance of it is being downplayed by forums more concerned with 900p. They are missing the elephant in the room in my opinion.

That's a very interesting argument in my opinion and an excellent reasoning. 1080p and so on are nice to have and I would be happy to play as many games at 1080p as I can, but the resolution of games isn't the only thing to consider nowadays.

In fact the Xbox One doesn't seem to be battling the PS4 alone, but also Google TV and Apple TV. Unlike them, Microsoft have a device which can control the whole living room in the future, both with voice and gesture commands.

More on the matter can be read in this article which says that the multimedia services of the Xbox One can let them stay ahead of Google and Apple, at least for a while.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/an...microsoft-ahead-of-apple-google/1100-6416105/

When you think about the Xbox One as a console alone, yes, it has an okay CPU, but the GPU can't keep up with the power of the PS4 and you go: Darn, I would love to have a GPU as good as PS4's if not better.

Then there is the price difference, but again... Features like HDMI in, Kinect 2 with voice and gesture recognition from the get go, IR Blaster capabilities, DLNA, Miracast -probably-, 8GB of flash -whatever is the purpose of that-, and a sublime sound chip, might justify the 100$ price difference for some people.

Some hardcore gamers... that's a different kettle of fish, but if Microsoft improve their PR they might be onto a winner.

Another winning move would be having the Xbox One running most Windows 8 apps out of the box. Say... apps like MetroTube, TuneIn, Spotlite, and even PC cross play -or more support to PC gamers-.

This would have the potential to give them a pretty comfortable lead over Chromecast, Google TV, the PS4 and Apple TV.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Wait, just six years ago people were lambasting the Xbox 360 for not having hdmi out, how it was already outdated out of the box and not in tune where things were going. So am I to understand now that hdmi is dead and has been replaced world wide with another connector, and that there aren't millions upon millions of devices connected with hdmi cables out on the wild?

No, what -tkf- is saying is that there are people who's TV signal can't simply be input into the Xbox One's HDMI input because the antenna connects directly to the TV.

Take for example the UK, almost all TVs produced in the last five years (and a fair few before) will have a digital tuner built right in the TV and the only people who receive their TV signal in a separate box to feed into the Xbox One would be those with a satellite or cable box or those with an older set without a digital tuner who have a digital tuner box connected. For the likes of me, where my antenna plugs into the TV, to get Xbox One's TV functionality to work I'd have a buy a separate digital tuner box to plug into the Xbox One.

What percentage of people this is I don't know. In a population of 67m, Sky have 10m TV subscribers and Virgin media have ~3.8m and they are two of the larger paid TV delivery services.

People with boxes are more likely willing to twiddle with their cables and give the Xbox One's TV functions a whirl, those without... well, I guess we'll see. Xbox One may well drive up sales of generic digital tuner boxes!!

 

[-tkf-]

you have a thing with that dont you? You keep repeating it like its true... or even valid.

The XB is on anyway...

Microsoft told me it was all about TV and Sports, when they had the whole world watching, are you telling me something else?

On where? What? How?

Maybe it's extremely hard to understand, but the TV TV SPORTS SPORTS thing just doesn't work with my TV, nor does it work with most of the people i know.

It requires something that has a HDMI out with a TV signal, and if that is fulfilled it then needs local support, in my country there is plenty of suppliers. And when that is said and done we are down to a small part that will actually be able to use it to it's full potential.

Now we just need them to add yet another box, that always has to be on so that they can get the overlay. Another overlay on top of what most other boxes includes, some of them with timeshift and other advanced functions. Now that is going to be fun, overlay on a overlay, two remotes, a voice control that doesn't always understand what you are saying. Yep, it's the elephant in the room filled with porcelain.

 

[Nesh]

In fact the Xbox One doesn't seem to be battling the PS4 alone, but also Google TV and Apple TV. Unlike them, Microsoft have a device which can control the whole living room in the future, both with voice and gesture commands.

More on the matter can be read in this article which says that the multimedia services of the Xbox One can let them stay ahead of Google and Apple, at least for a while.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/an...microsoft-ahead-of-apple-google/1100-6416105/

When you think about the Xbox One as a console alone, yes, it has an okay CPU, but the GPU can't keep up with the power of the PS4 and you go: Darn, I would love to have a GPU as good as PS4's if not better.

Then there is the price difference, but again... Features like HDMI in, Kinect 2 with voice and gesture recognition from the get go, IR Blaster capabilities, DLNA, Miracast -probably-, 8GB of flash -whatever is the purpose of that-, and a sublime sound chip, might justify the 100$ price difference for some people.

There is a problem with your argument. The XB1 cant do the unification of TV and console out of the box. It requires a cable or satellite box to do that. Competition is also not stagnant. They will respond to their strategy. Voice and gesture commands arent exclusive to XB1 and there are alternatives to HDMI in that may appear in the future that may not even require a separate box.
The XB1 rhymes extremely well with a certain market. But it is not that wide

 

[Cyan]

There is a problem with your argument. The XB1 cant do the unification of TV and console out of the box. It requires a cable or satellite box to do that. Competition is also not stagnant. They will respond to their strategy. Voice and gesture commands arent exclusive to XB1 and there are alternatives to HDMI in that may appear in the future that may not even require a separate box.
The XB1 rhymes extremely well with a certain market. But it is not that wide

I could be wrong, of course, I am not infallible. What I tried to point out is that the functionalities you mention are available in a single box, instead of having to buy a set of different, non unified devices.

This video is also an example of what I mean -just imagine the possibilities, I have a Skydrive account plus Google Drive, and I have shared some files using both):

http://www.gamespot.com/videos/skydrive-on-xbox-one/2300-6416064/

You can connect different devices -even consoles, like playing the Wii on the Xbox One- through the HDMI In port, record videos of that footage, upload them in a jiffy with Upload Studio, share photos and videos via Skydrive or wherever you prefer, watch TV channels, play games, maybe you can use Windows 8 apps, DLNA functionality, Internet Explorer, Skype, the ability to listen to music and watch movies, voice commands and gesture recognition, and facial recognition too.

It also works with your other devices at home.

My laptop included many of those features when I purchased it for instance, but it needed a myriad of programs to work, and I uninstalled most of them because it wasn't intuitive.

The mainstream public want devices a la Apple, easy to control and manage while extremely functional. That's where the Xbox One could be interesting in a company like Microsoft which hadn't always stood out in that sense.

 

[mrcorbo]

I hope you mean IN

Nope. Apparently the STB -> TV model isn't universal. In some countries it is more common for tuning to be done inside the TV. For people with that setup, the XBOne's would not be able to overlay over live TV and the functions that depend on it would lose most if not all of their appeal.

 

[mrcorbo]

There is a problem with your argument. The XB1 cant do the unification of TV and console out of the box. It requires a cable or satellite box to do that. Competition is also not stagnant. They will respond to their strategy. Voice and gesture commands arent exclusive to XB1 and there are alternatives to HDMI in that may appear in the future that may not even require a separate box.
The XB1 rhymes extremely well with a certain market. But it is not that wide

As of now, this is the only possible way for them to do it. In the U.S. at least this is (slowly) changing. All MS has to do is swing some deals with Cable TV distributors for dedicated apps like what they offer for Android and IOS devices and this will no longer be necessary.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Nope. Apparently the STB -> TV model isn't universal. In some countries it is more common for tuning to be done inside the TV. For people with that setup, the XBOne's would not be able to overlay over live TV and the functions that depend on it would lose most if not all of their appeal.

Bingo. So aside from the fact that in some countries, like the UK, where TV support will still not come until "some time in 2014", not all UK Xbox One owners will be able to use it without buying more hardware - another box, another power outlet, more cables.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Nope. Apparently the STB -> TV model isn't universal. In some countries it is more common for tuning to be done inside the TV.

I find that somewhat curious because it means those people aren't recording anything. Recording TV and watching it when you want seems the greatest improvement to the service since its inception, and anyone who watches a lot of TV would be far better off getting a DVR ahead of any console. If you don't watch much TV, the shortcomings of XB1 not supporting tuning from your TV won't be so pronounced, although still not ideal.

But considering an external tuner can be bought for £20 ish, it wouldn't be costly to gain the full TV integration experience with XB1.

 

[Nesh]

I could be wrong, of course, I am not infallible. What I tried to point out is that the functionalities you mention are available in a single box, instead of having to buy a set of different, non unified devices.

This video is also an example of what I mean -just imagine the possibilities, I have a Skydrive account plus Google Drive, and I have shared some files using both):

http://www.gamespot.com/videos/skydrive-on-xbox-one/2300-6416064/

You can connect different devices -even consoles, like playing the Wii on the Xbox One- through the HDMI In port, record videos of that footage, upload them in a jiffy with Upload Studio, share photos and videos via Skydrive or wherever you prefer, watch TV channels, play games, maybe you can use Windows 8 apps, DLNA functionality, Internet Explorer, Skype, the ability to listen to music and watch movies, voice commands and gesture recognition, and facial recognition too.

It also works with your other devices at home.

My laptop included many of those features when I purchased it for instance, but it needed a myriad of programs to work, and I uninstalled most of them because it wasn't intuitive.

The mainstream public want devices a la Apple, easy to control and manage while extremely functional. That's where the Xbox One could be interesting in a company like Microsoft which hadn't always stood out in that sense.

I thought DVR functionality works only with XB1 games? You cant record anything AFAIK.
Some of the other features you mention are not unique to XB1.
Windows 8 apps could be a game changer though.
Sony doesnt appear to have a similar ecosystem to keep supplying the PS4 with apps. Unless they partner with google