The TV features of the xbone are no longer behind the paywall according to an MS rep at PAX. The pass through and TV controls are now in the DMZ.
Business Approach Comparison Sony PS4 and Microsoft Xbox
- Thread starter BRiT
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That was always the case AFAIK. It was their SmartGuide feature (or something to that effect) which added social hooks and recommendations to the programming guide that was said to be behind Gold.
They will all be All-in-1 boxes, just like PS3. The difference is their approach.
Without PSEye, PS4 will still run the media apps.
D
Deleted member 11852
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I'm really hoping for XBMC support. Perhaps not out of the box, but as a user installable application. I would be happy to free my server from being chained to my TV.
Then they would get accused of spreading 'americanism', or get accused of not treating said users market as a serious market, etc. Apple can get away with stuff like that, Microsoft would get skewered. In any case see my point below.
But you have touched none of my points. You grasped that one sentence and repeated your previous post in different words.
Because all your points are based off this one line:
...which I completely disagree with. To you and typical forum folk, it's still first and foremost a games console. To Microsoft it's not, that's why it's critical to them to have the non gaming parts work out of the box on day 1. I didn't reply to your points because I've learned it's impossible to convince gamers that they aren't the primary focus anymore, so we would have just wasted time going back and forth for nothing. Microsoft have changed large portions of their game plan, but they have stuck to their guns keeping Kinect part of the package. That's because it's a major part of the package to the markets they are going after.
Sure there's always some but it doesn't matter, they will sell out all units anyways for the first few months. For the most part people will wait though. I mean look at some of the hardcore Playstation fans on this forum, we all know who they are. If the PS4 was delayed, do you really think they would jump ship and get an XB1? I highly doubt it.
Keep on dreaming!
I agree with your view, but there's a probem here - MS are launching in countries without the non-gaming parts all working out of the box. Perhaps the missing voice control features are few and far between, and the experience in these countries will be 95+% of the full experience, but if not, the logic doesn't stand for not launching in 8 countries without voice control and yet going ahead with launch in another 8 countries without (full) voice control. MS should not launch anywhere until they can provide the full experience. Or launch everywhere regardless of experience and patch it after the fact later. They appear to be doing half and half at the moment, or possibly the localisation issues aren't related to voice control.
I'm personally not inclined to believe any forum theories on this, so we'll have to wait and see what's actually missing in certain regions after launch to know for sure what their line of thinking was. For all we know delays could be due to local content deals or local software customizations falling behind schedule, or maybe some parts of the software in certain markets are so far behind or much more difficult than expected that they decided to launch partially complete in those markets, but delayed other markets which only needed another 3 months of software work. Maybe usability tests in certain regions just didn't meet their level of acceptance hence the delays. I mean who knows, there's a lot more to this box to polish than just the game playing experience. But what we do know is that if that aspect of the product was indeed optional, not critical, and not part of their long term vision then they could have just yanked Kinect from the box in some markets and sold it like that.
MS are launching in 8 countries without voice control - they've said as much themselves, first adding a suffix to an information webpage by saying not all countries will have voice control at launch, and then clarifying (by an engineer who's gone researching to feed back to the public) that there are varying degrees of voice recognition being provided across countries and we should await for some infographics from the PR department. It's certain though that MS are not launching their vision 100% functional out of the box though in every launch country. The follow-up PR clarification may explain this a bit better - perhaps they hit a software snag that'll delay the final voice control by a couple of weeks and they decided to go ahead with launch plans anyway and then patch it after the fact. Whatever, MS are willing to chance launching without the final experience against your reasoning, and that leads people to argue that they could just a reasonably deal with the same launch concerns in other countries. I guess it's down to MS to prove that wouldn't be sensible by explaining what's going on.
We don't know enough details to know why some countries are affected whereas others aren't. Nor do we know how much is missing from one launch country compared to others. If one launch country has multiple media deals going along with it, then having voice control perhaps is more important there, compared to say another nation that has no media deals to go along with their launch which maybe makes voice related items not as much of a deal breaker initially. Or maybe one country has the xb1's ship with more apps than another country due to licensing issues or whatever, those countries may be more dependent on full voice control compared to xb1's in other countries that ship with less apps installed and can perhaps go without full voice at the onset. Ultimately without speculating, we don't have enough information to know why they decided to go the route they did.
I agree with you, we do not know, though I understand that in the face of those lacking some people may really wonder about why they would have to "pay" for Kinect. As Pachter stated had the XB1 launched at the same price as the ps4 it would have been another matter. I guess some might feel the same with regard to the focus MSFT put on the device media capabilities of system when in their country the overall services offered could be nothing glorious.
I still think that both MSFT and Sony with their respective choices (on MSFT they have kinect which had to the BOM, Sony went for lot of expensive RAM), the pay wall they put on online gaming, have open the door for a new comer. Now I think that the number of companies that may consider the option of entering the market with reasonable success may have increased.
I for one would jump on system that allow me to play next gen game (with compromises in IQ) for cheap and without a pay wall when I want to play online every once in a while: I don't play enough to justify a subscription. I would be OK with a system that passes on physical release, with reasonable always on policies (turns out that MSFT policies were quite acceptable).
It turns into a leit motiv in my posts but I think I'm not the only one in that situation / sharing that state of mind, far from it.
Billy Idol
Legend
Hm...it is very mysterious to me. They launch with voice in Germany...but if I get it right, not in Austria...although the (only) official language in both countries is German.
I hope that one day, we'll get an answer to the question what happened at launch, just out of curiosity
I hope that one day, we'll get an answer to the question what happened at launch, just out of curiosity
I agree and look forward to it!
You just described a pc, which also gives you full bc going back 20+ years and full portability for all your games. But I digress...
Your point interested me so I did a quick search and found this link:
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071024161700AA6LHQ6
So while to an outsider like me it initially seems odd, after all they all speak German. A quick search though reveals that the answer is quite complicated. Now imagine being the software guys having to support all these dialects! On the other hand whoever can solve this problem first will reap the rewards. Or for those that don't want to click the link, here's the first comment on that link:
No. You avoided and twisted my points by making the convenient assumption that I see it from the gamer's perspective. You are wrong.
Go back into reading my post please. I recognize that The XBOXone is a multifunctional multipurpose console.
The reality is this. It has the same non-gaming features with or without voice commands. You know this perfectly. Now you will make me repeat myself
Someone said its not just the voice commands. Its general localization. What else is there except voice commands that makes localization so different and complicated? Nobody answered.
What new do they bring to the table so extraordinarily that we have to wait for every dialect and language to be perfect). They just showed that you can control the menu with your voice. Yet everyone speaks about this undefined "perfect/complete experience" that requires "voice commands". As if I cant seamlessly multitask, use skype, go from one menu to the next, watch movies, go to the internet, control my cable channels, control menus with gestures etc if I choose not to use my voice. All these are non-gaming functions that sell the console to non gamers and are not limited to voice commands to work. Its not that English voice commands are completely useless to the non-English speaking customer either (hell my English accent sucks and my 360 works fine with Kinect1).
But lets do the favor and assume that they are nonfunctional unless they get every language and dialect in there. This "we dont release to all territories until we get it perfect" argument also brings up questions WHETHER they will ever get all dialects and languages perfect someday and if yes WHEN. It sounds like a pain in the ass. There are probably thousands of dialects out there
As a consequence of this we have the additional concern. MS wants to get the experience consistent and perfect. Right? Riiiight. So whether you game or not voice commands should work just as well. Besides you all know MS wants everything to work flawlessly. So I ask again, how would developers implement voice commands in game in order to satisfy MS's obsession with perfection? If you require to get the voice commands perfect so that the average joe in the rest of the world can use his native language, you should require this to hold for both gaming and non-gaming functionality. So should developers also worry about meeting all dialect and language requirements too for the games that support voice commands? Or should the Greek guy talk in Greek during non-gaming functions and in English when he plays Mass effect 4?
So considering that non-gaming function works as intended and voice commands are optional, not releasing to territories that matter less as someone has put it, is either a bad excuse or a bad business decision that creates problems due to its complexity that is not necessary for non-gaming/gaming functions to work. Its one of the two. If they release worldwide, the important 13 markets that matter most will get the perfect voice command experience and the rest in due time. Thats a better decision.
If one market has Crackle, Hulu, Netflix, HBO Go, Xbox Music, Amazon Instant Video, ESPN, etc apps available in it, and another market of identical size does not then the voice related needs of both markets are no where near the same. Hence why it's reasonable to expect voice to be a priority and/or mandatory in one, and perhaps a lesser priority and/or optional in the other. One market should be delayed while the other can perhaps initially ship without.
Worldwide voice recognition is a holy grail most every major software company on the planet is working on as we speak. I don't understand why it doesn't garner much respect on forums, it's a pretty big deal.
Maybe they want the box to be recognized out of the gate as fully voice enabled. Clearly it's important to them. Yeah they could technically ship without it, but that's not how they want their new platform to be represented. You wouldn't care if they didn't, whereas I think it would be a colossal blunder to not have it. Everyone has their views on what's important at launch and what isn't. For the markets they are going after, including it all from day 1 is critical to get established as the first to have done so, to get word of mouth going, to get perceived as more than just another boring console with limited appeal, and to remove the barrier to acceptance from many who simple refuse to use a controller (yes there are many people like that out there).
The gamer market may not care as much, so you can resolve that later compared to the non gamer market for which it's more important. You have to pick your battles, you can't do it all at once but having the non gamer side fully voice ready is a great start. and presumably that same research would help the gamer side as well although nothing has been demonstrated yet.
Again, it depends on how you want your platform to be perceived. To you leaving voice out and adding it later is fine, to Microsoft it's of far greater importance. You know my stance on this, launching yet another game console is beyond pointless to me and extremely short sighted in this day and age especially with the obvious competitors looming. Personally I think launching without a fully functional Kinect is patently ridiculous and detrimental to the entire platform. I think they are making the right move by delaying wherever more software work is needed. That may entail getting dialects right, or it may be far more involved than that, we don't know the full reasons.
1. You are talking about voice commands whereas my posts asks about other localization issues
2. The markets that have Crackle, Hulu, Netflix, HBO Go, Xbox Music, Amazon Instant Video, ESPN, etc are included in the 13 countries that will see release day one. The rest instead of getting the console shipped without, are not getting it at all
Yeah and its a huge problem how and when they will be able to do it which is irrelevant to the specific part you quoted.
Now explain in the specific case of the XB1 which is the main subject instead of talking broadly and generalizing
Maybe. If thats how they see it it doesnt make it right either. The 13 markets are the important ones and will establish the message well. The others dont need to. The voice commands will still be available to them in English. They are used to English.
This quote: "But lets do the favor and assume that they are nonfunctional unless they get every language and dialect in there. This "we dont release to all territories until we get it perfect" argument also brings up questions WHETHER they will ever get all dialects and languages perfect someday and if yes WHEN. It sounds like a pain in the ass."
is not isolated to the gaming market. Its a real problem for non-gamers that will buy the console in territories other than the initial 13 territories they are targeting. Now please respond appropriately. Do you honestly expect that all these territories will see all dialects and languages covered? And if yes when?
In addition the market is not separated strictly to absolute gaming and non gaming market. There is a huge overlap which you ignore.
XB1 is NOT just another gaming console if it doesnt have all dialects and languages. It is still a multifunctional all-purpose entertainment system and non-English people can still speak English to control the console if they want to. Non English customers that refuse to use English are already included in the intital 13 countries. People worldwide are generally accustomed to English. We buy electronic products in English everywhere. Our consoles and games were in English since forever.
It's impossible for us to know what the specific localization issues are, assuming that's the issue.
So? Clearly something isn't ready yet for those other markets, so don't ship it. Makes sense, it wouldn't be the first product ever that was delayed in other regions.
I already did, they don't want to sell it without voice control. That's the package and image they want, period. If they didn't then they would have made Kinect optional. It's no different than a game company not wanting to ship a game that isn't feature complete, like skipping an entire skill tree and patching it in later. It's not the image they want.
Really? Then why did people constantly complain about missing features in Xbox Live around the world? The usa market had them all, that should have been enough to establish the message well right? So everyone else should be content without them? I don't understand what you are getting at.
Responding to people in their native language is the money shot that everyone aside from Sony are rapidly going after. There is *huge* value in that.
Maybe they did think they would have solved it in time. Pro-tip: software deadlines sometimes aren't met. Duke Nukem Forever was supposed to take just a couple of years to make, Apple thought their Mapping app would have been ready in time, etc. When it became clear deadlines wouldn't be met, then the tough decisions had to be made, ship or don't ship.
How am I ignoring it? I am such a gamer, I overlap both markets. I still thinking shipping it when it's not ready is dumb.
Without voice, it basically does what lots of other devices already do. It doesn't distinguish itself as well, it doesn't stand out, it's not as revolutionary, it's significantly more boring, bland and mundane. It plays games, great so does my laptop. It plays movies, great so does a Roku. It can Skype, great so does my phone. Where's the new and revolutionary?
It's. Not. That. Simple.
The UK, US, and Australia all use English as their official language, and guess what? The voice reco databases are different in each of those countries.
Or the fact that all markets aren't equal. All these countries can be prioritized based on importance using factors like market size or product acceptance in those markets. Given that, you can readily expect that the resources from the start of development aren't going to allocated on an equal basis.
What probably triggered MS to cut from 21 to 13 is that they wanted to divert resources to the final 13 because they are considered essential. And the 8 countries that will launched with missing features are probably much further along and are probably priority post launch. Meaning if MS had launched all 21 countries, 8 countries would have been stuck with a product with an incomplete feature set and gone well into 2014 without MS making any serious attempts to address them because there are 8 other more important markets being serviced.
So all MS would of accomplished is put a half assed product into the markets in the face of an competitor with a more polished product. All the while sitting those countries on the back burner and building a negative general opinion of their product in those countries in an attempt to service a miniscule number of gamers in those countries.
I don't understand why people have a hard time accepting MS approach. Kinect is readily used as the reason as why the Xbox One will cost more. If that is true, do you think MS will accept a $100 premium based on inclusion of a camera then treat the software behind it as immaterial? Kinect probably represents billions of dollars in BOM costs that MS will have to incur, so there is plenty of reason to treat voice recognition/motion control/localization as something more than an ancillary feature set that can be readily thrown aside regardless of circumstance.
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