Broadway specs

[Teasy]

I can't help but crack a grin at that. Perhaps so, but that doesn't change the validity of what he said now does it.

No, just making the point that his comment applies to us both

Not sure what you mean by making that statement. Broadway's apparantly a 90nm SOI, 8 metal layer design. You pretty much don't GET more advanced than that today.

I'm talking about chip complexity. Its easy to believe that AMD could encounter some hurdles moving a complex chip such as Athlon64 too a new process. But apparently Broadway is a 6-7 year old design, and wasn't even too complex 6-7 years ago.

 

[Teasy]

http://www.nintendogal.com/uploads/misc/broadway8.serendipityThumb.jpg

According to this website,these are pics of the Broadway chip.

Link doesn't work.

 

[sfried]

Link doesn't work.

Hit Refresh if you get a 403.

 

[Teasy]

Hit Refresh if you get a 403.

Still wouldn't work, but I went to the site itself and saw the pic on the front page. The picture is from the IBM video posted a while ago I think.

 

[Guden Oden]

I'm talking about chip complexity. Its easy to believe that AMD could encounter some hurdles moving a complex chip such as Athlon64 too a new process. But apparently Broadway is a 6-7 year old design, and wasn't even too complex 6-7 years ago.

I don't understand what makes you think an athlon is 'more complex' than a PPC chip for example. Both are made up using transistors. Both use the exact same types of logic gates. The athlon merely uses MORE of them, making a larger chip. Complexity on the other hand is rather dictated by the CMOS process, metal layers etc I would say.

 

[Teasy]

I don't understand what makes you think an athlon is 'more complex' than a PPC chip for example. Both are made up using transistors. Both use the exact same types of logic gates. The athlon merely uses MORE of them, making a larger chip. Complexity on the other hand is rather dictated by the CMOS process, metal layers etc I would say.

Gekko is a much older, far less cutting edge design, and uses far less transistors. A chips complexity doesn't just come down to the type of process used. Cell will also use a 90nm process, would you say Cell isn't more complex then Gekko?

 

[sfried]

Gekko is a much older, far less cutting edge design, and uses far less transistors. A chips complexity doesn't just come down to the type of process used. Cell will also use a 90nm process, would you say Cell isn't more complex then Gekko?

But I thought the Broadway isn't a Gekko?

Update: Looks like IBM pulled down the "specs". What's going on?

 

[3dilettante]

I don't understand what makes you think an athlon is 'more complex' than a PPC chip for example. Both are made up using transistors. Both use the exact same types of logic gates. The athlon merely uses MORE of them, making a larger chip. Complexity on the other hand is rather dictated by the CMOS process, metal layers etc I would say.

You can make a simple processor on a high-end CMOS process, it doesn't magically become more complex as a result. Logic gates are simple, it's how they are arranged and who they need to talk to that makes things complex.

Additional metal layers, for example, are often added because of the difficulty in routing complex signal and power paths in a given number of layers, especially with line noise and heat concerns.
If a chip's transistor layer doesn't need the extra signaling (an indication that it is less complex or its performance target is different), a chip isn't going to have those extra layers at all.

If the design is less complex and needs fewer connections between various groups of transistors, and the chip's design target allows for some slack in timing, they will try to go without additional metal layers, since each layer adds to the complexity of producing a given design, along with additional steps in manufacturing and increases in defect rates that cost money.

It's also heavily influenced by the amount of engineering effort a given manufacturer wants to put into designing the metal layers. Intel has around 3 fewer metal layers for its chips than AMD. IBM's top chips (I believe) also use more metal layers than Intel, though I don't know how many more.

The difference is that neither IBM or AMD have the massive design teams needed to do the extra custom work to fit signaling into fewer layers.

 

[Teasy]

But I thought the Broadway isn't a Gekko?

I'm not saying it is, I'm saying that if it was unchanged from Gekko I'd find it very strange if they had to increase the die size past the expected size.

 

[Guden Oden]

Gekko is a much older, far less cutting edge design, and uses far less transistors. A chips complexity doesn't just come down to the type of process used. Cell will also use a 90nm process, would you say Cell isn't more complex then Gekko?

Gekko was made on a .18u process. It's also not the chip used in Wii.

Broadway uses .09u, SoI, 8 metal layers. That's what athlon and cell also uses, afaik. It's SMALLER, but not less complex I say. That you want to equal "complexity" with "size" would make a 50s Chevy Eldorado 'more complex' than a contemporary formula-1 racer, to make a car analogy (because cars and silicon chips are, as we know, fully comparable. )

 

[3dilettante]

Broadway uses .09u, SoI, 8 metal layers. That's what athlon and cell also uses, afaik. It's SMALLER, but not less complex I say. That you want to equal "complexity" with "size" would make a 50s Chevy Eldorado 'more complex' than a contemporary formula-1 racer, to make a car analogy (because cars and silicon chips are, as we know, fully comparable. )

On the other hand, an F-1 racer's engine is way bigger than a standard 2-stroke lawnmower engine. I'd hazard a guess that the F-1 engine is more complex.

Considering the massive difference in power draw between K8 and Broadway on a similar process, it obviously indicates that the larger chip is doing a lot more than the smaller one.

There's just way too much of a disparity in how aggressive K8 is in OOE, clock speed, and power draw to say that Broadway is just as complex.

The decoder alone for K8 is by necessity vastly more complex than it would need to be for PPC, thanks to the former's irregular ISA.

 

[Ty]

I'm not saying it is, I'm saying that if it was unchanged from Gekko I'd find it very strange if they had to increase the die size past the expected size.

But the point Gubbi and others were trying to make is that the necessary MINIMUM pad size may simply be the limiting factor in the size decrease - something you just can't ignore.

 

[Guden Oden]

On the other hand, an F-1 racer's engine is way bigger than a standard 2-stroke lawnmower engine. I'd hazard a guess that the F-1 engine is more complex.

Good point, if I'd made a comparison against a lawnmower. The Eldorado on the other hand has a pretty fricken big engine too I might add.

Considering the massive difference in power draw between K8 and Broadway on a similar process, it obviously indicates that the larger chip is doing a lot more than the smaller one.

Yes, but power draw doesn't mean it's more complicated to build in a chip fab, it's merely a function of things like voltages, clock speed and transistor gate properties...

There's just way too much of a disparity in how aggressive K8 is in OOE, clock speed, and power draw to say that Broadway is just as complex.

The decoder alone for K8 is by necessity vastly more complex than it would need to be for PPC, thanks to the former's irregular ISA.

That K8 is more complex from a design point of view (which is what you're talking about) does not mean it's more complex from a chip building point of view (which is what this is actually about). If broadway was some silly little toy chip, it'd used what, 4-5 metal layers or so on bulk wafers, instead of 8, on SoI.

Why can't you people accept that the manufacturing of broadway actually IS a high-tech task? Jesus, teasy's the biggest nintendo fan on the board, I think everybody who was around remembers his epic discussions of how nintendo theoretically could put in chips with comparable power to PS3/360 into the newly revealed 3-DVD-cases Revolution case... Give the little white box a break, guys!

 

[Rolf N]

You're not seriously discussing "complexity" now, are you? You people ...

Okay, how about this: this thing was surely designed by competent personnel, they just didn't aim very high.

 

[3dilettante]

That K8 is more complex from a design point of view (which is what you're talking about) does not mean it's more complex from a chip building point of view (which is what this is actually about).

That's a dead-end argument, you don't use process nodes to discuss chip complexity.
Nor does it matter, since K8 uses 9 metal layers.

If broadway was some silly little toy chip, it'd used what, 4-5 metal layers or so on bulk wafers, instead of 8, on SoI.

Except IBM's not going to hang onto a process that old, and given the desire to have low power, SOI would be helpful.
I'm not arguing that Broadway is a toy chip, I am saying the Broadway=K8 in complexity is silly.
With the lower performance target and emphasis on low power, the chips don't necessarily have the same process, or even the same steps given the same process. Their different design targets allow for the chips to use different mixes and different kinds of gates.

I don't know if IBM opted for some of the extra frills AMD has opted for, did the specs mention strained silicon? If not, that's a couple steps removed from the manufacture of Broadway.

Why can't you people accept that the manufacturing of broadway actually IS a high-tech task?

There's a difference between saying it's high-tech and saying Broadway is just as complex as K8 or any aggressive design.

 

[pc999]

But the point Gubbi and others were trying to make is that the necessary MINIMUM pad size may simply be the limiting factor in the size decrease - something you just can't ignore.

What happens in those cases? They just wast the extra space?

Once the price dont go up wouldnt they make better if they use the extra space (specially in a console here more power is always good and a selling point).

 

[patroclus02]

the links don't work...
does it have any altive or enhanced SIMD features?? or it still lacks from them??

 

[Refreshment]

Why can't you people accept that the manufacturing of broadway actually IS a high-tech task? Jesus, teasy's the biggest nintendo fan on the board, I think everybody who was around remembers his epic discussions of how nintendo theoretically could put in chips with comparable power to PS3/360 into the newly revealed 3-DVD-cases Revolution case...

You had to go there.....

Give credit where is due. Keeping hope alive until the last bitter second.

 

[ban25]

Why can't you people accept that the manufacturing of broadway actually IS a high-tech task? Jesus, teasy's the biggest nintendo fan on the board, I think everybody who was around remembers his epic discussions of how nintendo theoretically could put in chips with comparable power to PS3/360 into the newly revealed 3-DVD-cases Revolution case... Give the little white box a break, guys!

I forgot about that one. The one I always remember is the PowerVR bet.

 

[Teasy]

Why can't you people accept that the manufacturing of broadway actually IS a high-tech task? Jesus, teasy's the biggest nintendo fan on the board, I think everybody who was around remembers his epic discussions of how nintendo theoretically could put in chips with comparable power to PS3/360 into the newly revealed 3-DVD-cases Revolution case... Give the little white box a break, guys!

You know, next time you try to be a smart arse Guden maybe you could check your facts first so that you don't make a tit of yourself again... It was PC-Engine who had this epic discussion your referring to, not me

Anyway back on topic, of course producing Gekko is a complicated task, no matter what CPU you make its complicated. But we're talking relatively to other CPU's, in this case the Athlon 64. A relatively new, complex design, which will have more kinks to work out then a comparatively very simple and old design like Gekko.