Broadway specs

[Guden Oden]

But that stone has helped increase the popularity of of PC by allowing older software to continue to work.

Yes, but you might want to note that console games sell much better than PC games despite PCs sell 100s of millions of units every year, while it took PS2 5+ years to reach that many units.

Backward compatibility is not a means unto itself. Other factors will be a lot more important on the whole.

 

[ninzel]

Yes, but you might want to note that console games sell much better than PC games despite PCs sell 100s of millions of units every year, while it took PS2 5+ years to reach that many units.

Backward compatibility is not a means unto itself. Other factors will be a lot more important on the whole.

No I suppose it's not but I wasn't really thinking about BC for consoles in regards to game sales.
I was thinking more like it would help reduce costs of developeing new hardware each gen,it would help devs be up and running making games faster and cheaper, and hopefully that would lead to more risk,more variety and more games for us.
Edit: Also I think I also mentioned BC being good for PC ,because it gives us the consumer a much larger selection of software to choose from.

 

[Teasy]

Ah. So you're relying on your experience as a process engineer to determine the die size of the 750CL.

Pot calling the kettle black?

Ah, so you made it up.

Again no and I'm not even the first person to say it, so put your handbag away love The theory, and of course that's all something is until its 100% fact, is no more made up then any of your theories.

Look at other processors: AMD's Athlon 64 shrunk from 144mm^2 to 84mm^2, not 69mm^2

Yeah take look at the processors you just mentioned. AMD's Athlon 64, an extremely complex cutting edge CPU and, if we believe some, a 6-7 year old CPU that wasn't even complex 6-7 years ago. Why even compare them?

Anyway sooner or later developers will be able to talk in depth about Broadway and then we'll see.

 

[Corwin_B]

No I suppose it's not but I wasn't really thinking about BC for consoles in regards to game sales.
I was thinking more like it would help reduce costs of developeing new hardware each gen,it would help devs be up and running making games faster and cheaper, and hopefully that would lead to more risk,more variety and more games for us.
Edit: Also I think I also mentioned BC being good for PC ,because it gives us the consumer a much larger selection of software to choose from.

I think the problem is that by going for incremental upgrades (ie staying with the same pipelines but increasing speed and/or number of pipelines/core) you won't be able to achieve the kind of generational jump (performance-wise) that you will see when moving from PS1 to PS2, or from Saturn to DC (to give examples).

If you switch architectures completely, at first the brute-force approach is enough to give you an edge with regard to previous-generation products (even if devs don't master the finer details), and later the devs are able to take advantage of all kind of features/tweaks that wouldn't have been possible on a "straight" upgrade of the previous design.

On the Wii, the results of the "straight upgrade" range from correct (some of the stuff by competent developers look pretty good if not spectacular) down to atrocious (since some Wii devs apparently never worked on NGC (besides poor quality PS2 ports), some Wii titles actually look underwhelming for previous gen software).

 

[ninzel]

I think the problem is that by going for incremental upgrades (ie staying with the same pipelines but increasing speed and/or number of pipelines/core) you won't be able to achieve the kind of generational jump (performance-wise) that you will see when moving from PS1 to PS2, or from Saturn to DC (to give examples).

If you switch architectures completely, at first the brute-force approach is enough to give you an edge with regard to previous-generation products (even if devs don't master the finer details), and later the devs are able to take advantage of all kind of features/tweaks that wouldn't have been possible on a "straight" upgrade of the previous design.

On the Wii, the results of the "straight upgrade" range from correct (some of the stuff by competent developers look pretty good if not spectacular) down to atrocious (since some Wii devs apparently never worked on NGC (besides poor quality PS2 ports), some Wii titles actually look underwhelming for previous gen software).

But does BC really have to mean a lack of power or a big jump.Can't you have both?Just increasing speed with no features is not exactly what Im talking about,I mentioned completely throwing out the architecture. If I upgraded my 9700pro to X1900XTX, doulbed the RAM and upgraded my CPU I certainly would see a huge increase and still be BC.
When I mentioned BC being good I never even considered that it would mean being held back in terms of power. I think you would have to be talking about a very very select group of gamers that would have a problem with a power increase still possible while retaining BC,but for probably 95% of the gamers out their they would probably never miss that last drop of power.

 

[Corwin_B]

But does BC really have to mean a lack of power or a big jump.Can't you have both?Just increasing speed with no features is not exactly what Im talking about,I mentioned completely throwing out the architecture. If I upgraded my 9700pro to X1900XTX, doulbed the RAM and upgraded my CPU I certainly would see a huge increase and still be BC.

But then again, on a PC you are within the realm of API-based programming, DirectX versions, drivers... Consoles are a different beast altogether, and more often than not, the power in a console's best titles is achieved through very "close to the bare metal" coding (AKA Real Programming). So there are three ways to achieve BC when changing console generations : include the old hardware (fully or partially), have register-by-register compatible hardware (which seems to be what Nintendo did with the Wii), or have powerful enough new hardware that you can emulate the old one (not an easy feat, see the state of XBox 360 BC).

I think going the second path (enhanced, fully compatible hardware) limits what can be done with the transistor budget of a new generation. I may be wrong.

When I mentioned BC being good I never even considered that it would mean being held back in terms of power. I think you would have to be talking about a very very select group of gamers that would have a problem with a power increase still possible while retaining BC,but for probably 95% of the gamers out their they would probably never miss that last drop of power.

The thing is that we don't know for sure. Going from PS1 to PS2 for Sony was including the full PS1 HW into the PS2. PS2->PS3 may be different (although I wonder how they would emulate GS). XBox->360 is both a mess (from a gamer's standpoint) and an engineering marvel (from a more technical standpoint). For the Wii, there are other considerations than NGC->Wii BC, probably Wii24 (need to have a very power-efficient CPU), cost, and form factor. We don't know how far they could have pushed full register-based BC (keeping a similar architecture) with less form-factor, cost and power constraints...

 

[ninzel]

But then again, on a PC you are within the realm of API-based programming, DirectX versions, drivers... Consoles are a different beast altogether, and more often than not, the power in a console's best titles is achieved through very "close to the bare metal" coding (AKA Real Programming). So there are three ways to achieve BC when changing console generations : include the old hardware (fully or partially), have register-by-register compatible hardware (which seems to be what Nintendo did with the Wii), or have powerful enough new hardware that you can emulate the old one (not an easy feat, see the state of XBox 360 BC).

I think going the second path (enhanced, fully compatible hardware) limits what can be done with the transistor budget of a new generation. I may be wrong.



The thing is that we don't know for sure. Going from PS1 to PS2 for Sony was including the full PS1 HW into the PS2. PS2->PS3 may be different (although I wonder how they would emulate GS). XBox->360 is both a mess (from a gamer's standpoint) and an engineering marvel (from a more technical standpoint). For the Wii, there are other considerations than NGC->Wii BC, probably Wii24 (need to have a very power-efficient CPU), cost, and form factor. We don't know how far they could have pushed full register-based BC (keeping a similar architecture) with less form-factor, cost and power constraints...

Good info thanks.I was thinking exactly about 360 BC and how messed it is.AFAIK Sony has included the PS2 hardware in the PS3.

 

[pc999]

We don't know how far they could have pushed full register-based BC (keeping a similar architecture) with less form-factor, cost and power constraints...

They could at least make a multi-core CPU (up to 1Ghz quadcore CPU) or add extra speciall (independent) HW to the CPU to help it in certain tasks (eg physics, gfx...), the same for the GPU (more pipes, TEV units, T&L engines...) any of those should give a much more performance than this and keep BC, so if the console is underpowered is for other reasons (C24, price...).

 

[darkblu]

They could at least make a multi-core CPU (up to 1Ghz quadcore CPU)..

sorry, a '1GHz quadcore cpu' is 'at least'? - the heat dissipation would be way higher. and as eveything's pointing out, power efficiency was a key, if not the most significant, point in wii's design.

..or add extra special (independent) HW to the CPU to help it in certain tasks (eg physics, gfx...), the same for the GPU (more pipes, TEV units, T&L engines...) any of those should give a much more performance than this and keep BC, so if the console is underpowered is for other reasons (C24, price...).

yes, just don't forget we don't know what hollywood exactly is.

 

[ban25]

Pot calling the kettle black?

I'm not an EE, but I'll wager my semiconductor knowledge against yours any day of the week...

Yeah take look at the processors you just mentioned. AMD's Athlon 64, an extremely complex cutting edge CPU and, if we believe some, a 6-7 year old CPU that wasn't even complex 6-7 years ago. Why even compare them?

That has nothing to do with it. You really haven't understood a single thing Gubbi or I have said. Because of fanout, it's entirely possible the die becomes pad-limited at 16 sqmm, and that's not accounting for layout and the very fact that these process geometries don't scale perfectly (as you would like to assume).

 

[pc999]

sorry, a '1GHz quadcore cpu' is 'at least'? - the heat dissipation would be way higher. and as eveything's pointing out, power efficiency was a key, if not the most significant, point in wii's design.

No, the "at least" is for the multi-core, with the 1Hgz (like the750GX) QC CPU I just tried to show that it is possible to get a lot more performance and BC (althought not as efficient as GC).

yes, just don't forget we don't know what hollywood exactly is.

Again (dont matter what is in Wii) it is just to show that possible to get BC and much more power.

Those probably arent the best ways of getting the extra performance, but they show it is indeed possible, so if there is reasons to wii not be as powerfull as it could or we want or (...) BC is probably one of the minor things in the equation (like you said power or price or design or C24... will be the reasons)

 

[pc999]

That has nothing to do with it. You really haven't understood a single thing Gubbi or I have said. Because of fanout, it's entirely possible the die becomes pad-limited at 16 sqmm, and that's not accounting for layout and the very fact that these process geometries don't scale perfectly (as you would like to assume).

Cant we just compare how many CPUs would be produced in a 300mm^ waffer to how many are presented in the Bradway waffer that we saw in the video (from here we had infered (at least in the begining) that they would have 25mm^)? if so then we could draw better dedutions.

 

[ban25]

Cant we just compare how many CPUs would be produced in a 300mm^ waffer to how many are presented in the Bradway waffer that we saw in the video (from here we had infered (at least in the begining) that they would have 25mm^)? if so then we could draw better dedutions.

What's the point of such an exercise? To prove that IBM is lying in their datasheet and the 750CL really contains some super-secret physics co-processor that Wii developers at Nintendo don't even know about? Maybe they appropriated some hyper-dimensional semiconductor technology from Doctor Who so the chip is bigger on the inside than the outside!

...Sorry, had to get that out of my system.

Now, seriously, the die size is in the PDF on Page 14.

 

[darkblu]

Those probably arent the best ways of getting the extra performance, both they show it is indeed possible, so if there is reasons to wii not be as powerfull as it could or we want or (...) BC is probably one of the minor things in the equation (like you said power or price or design or C24... will be the reasons)

ah, ok. i slightly misunderstood your original point. sorry, my bad.

 

[Corwin_B]

Again (dont matter what is in Wii) it is just to show that possible to get BC and much more power.

Those probably arent the best ways of getting the extra performance, both they show it is indeed possible, so if there is reasons to wii not be as powerfull as it could or we want or (...) BC is probably one of the minor things in the equation (like you said power or price or design or C24... will be the reasons)

Ok, I see your point. I still think that if you want maximum horsepower (and spec bragging rights, those play a large role when announcing a new console) for a given transistor budget when moving from one generation to another, ditching your architecture and starting anew makes more sense than trying to bolt additional things and extract more performance from your current HW design. Look no further than X86 world for an example.

Regarding Wii, I think something else that Nintendo wanted was ease of development, which sadly many developers seem to have mistaken for "license to release shoddy PS2/XBox ports".

 

[pc999]

What's the point of such an exercise?

, something more simple, know if Broadway and the 750CL (or at least the version presented in the pdf) are the same CPU.

ah, ok. i slightly misunderstood your original point. sorry, my bad.

No problem, personally when I am here like and hope to be corrected any time I am wrong.

Sorry for any confusion.

Regarding Wii, I think something else that Nintendo wanted was ease of development, which sadly many developers seem to have mistaken for "license to release shoddy PS2/XBox ports".

Hopefully that is just at the beggining, second gen titles (eg RS 2) will probably need to give much more in terms of gfx, anyway some like elebits (Konami did anything significant for GC?) seems to make some nice first attempts (althought it stil not as good as we want ).

 

[darkblu]

Ot

btw, slightly OT, but speaking of RS and its room for imporvement,

Graphics are simply amazing. Forget everything you have seen from all the Red Steel videos up until now. Unbelievably smooth character animations, night time dojo level is gorgeous, rain and lighting storm is very well done, compared to RE4’s village area, but more impressive.

 

[Guden Oden]

Pot calling the kettle black?

I can't help but crack a grin at that. Perhaps so, but that doesn't change the validity of what he said now does it.

Yeah take look at the processors you just mentioned. AMD's Athlon 64, an extremely complex cutting edge CPU and, if we believe some, a 6-7 year old CPU that wasn't even complex 6-7 years ago. Why even compare them?

Not sure what you mean by making that statement. Broadway's apparantly a 90nm SOI, 8 metal layer design. You pretty much don't GET more advanced than that today.

 

[Corwin_B]

btw, slightly OT, but speaking of RS and its room for imporvement,

While it's nice to hear more positive impressions of Red Steel, I would take any impressions from GoNintendo.com reporting on an article in Official Nintendo Magazine UK with a grain of salt until I can hear from other sources.

 

[ninzel]

http://www.nintendogal.com/uploads/misc/broadway8.serendipityThumb.jpg

According to this website,these are pics of the Broadway chip.