I guess when you think about it, it's such an obvious idea that it'd be odd if someone hadn't tried it before Nintendo. Makes you wonder about analogue thumbsticks and d-pads ...
Bout Time For A New Sega Console?
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I guess when you think about it, it's such an obvious idea that it'd be odd if someone hadn't tried it before Nintendo. Makes you wonder about analogue thumbsticks and d-pads ...
Analogue thumbsticks existed in remote-control aircraft many years before computer games. Most of these ideas existed somewhere else first. The console companies just moved them into a different, related arena.
Yeah, I had a radio controlled car in the 1980s; the transmitter had two thumb-friendly sticks. The Sega AX-1E does have a bit of a radio controlled plane handset look about it, from the one picture of it I've ever seen. Dual analogue sticks too.
The great thing about looking for obscure hardware is that you stumble across things like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XaviXPort_gaming_console
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzkHbbZIW4A
The great thing about looking for obscure hardware is that you stumble across things like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XaviXPort_gaming_console
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzkHbbZIW4A
DuckThor Evil
Legend
I'm The Only One To Find Odd That You Use A Capital Letter For Every Word In The Thread Title?
It Reminds Me Of Somebody
Nah I think this guy is "clean". Funny coincidence though
Sega had an analogue pad (analogue sticks and triggers) out on the Megadrive, long before the Saturn and Playstation. The Saturn pad was an evolution of this design. After only one generation Nintendo dropped the appalling N64 trident layout and went with Sega's Saturn/DC layout instead (as did Microsoft). The GC even used the Megadrive's button layout (while Sega even more shamelessly copied the SNES diamond button layout for the Dreamcast).
Anyway, it's certainly possible that someone else used analogue thumbsticks for video game pads even before Sega did, but we can say with absolute certainty that Nintendo don't deserve the credit for them!
Sony and MS often get criticised for "copying" Nintendo, but if Nintendo are doing something right why not? Nintendo are perfectly happy to do it (as were Sega)!
It Can't Be Him; He Is Banned!
Btw, Sega only showed their analog thumbstick for the Saturn after it was already known the N64 would have one (and Nintendo had been working on it for years beforehand anyway).
They may have only showed it, but it was something they would want released with the launch of Saturn but not far enough into development at the time.
You d better bet that if it wasnt for Nintendo's forced agreement on to developers to not develop on competitive consoles, the Master System would have been a headache for Nintendo.
Someone told me before that Sega have the patent for 8-way digital controller. Is that true ? I wonder why they didn't use it for DC ? Saturn controller is the best d-Pad of any controllers.
That's always been Sega problem. They were protecting their Arcade business instead of leveraging it for home. They didn't have the foresight to see that home consoles would overtake the Arcade eventually.
Sony had a VR sort of headset. Wasn't very good though. Nintendo also failed with that red thingy. But we have OLED now, they can curved the screen to create IMAX like experience from a headset, I like to see someone attempt VR again. Especially with this 3D glasses thingy. Since we have to wear them for the immersion, might as well just wear VR headset.
Never! In what parallel universe?
The Megadrive didn't even have a 6-button controller as standard for years - if it ever became standard actually. Btw, analog triggers is merely a marginal evolution of Nintendo innovation with the SNES pad.
It wasn't standard either, and only ever worked with a handful of titles. Unlike with N64, where every game could take advantage of precise analog controls...
It may be your opinion it was appalling; IMO the only truly appalling thing about the N64 pad was the D-pad, which was very poor. All it was good for was to act as auxiliary face buttons. The pad was also too large, although that came as a large part from the three-prong design...
To call it "Sega Saturn's layout" is just bullshit, as it's the standard NES layout but with the D-pad replaced with the thumbstick. Give credit where it's truly due!
You're serious? The Megadrive pad had a large button in the center with three bean-shaped buttons surrounding it? Gosh, I never knew!!! All this time I thought the Megadrive pad was three buttons in a slightly arcing row!
(2 rows with the updated streetfighter-compatible pad.)I don't agree.
AnttiApina
Newcomer
I think it would be too risky. Sure there would be a few supporters, but as though as the competition is right now, Sega would be crushed.
The AX-1E, for the Megadrive:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AX-1E
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/denise.thorpe1/ax-1e.jpg
Six years before the N64!
The AX-1E was out the same year as the SNES (maybe even before it?) and sure as hell isn't based on the SNES pad!
The AX-1E layout appears to be based around stick (left thumb), throttle (right thumb) and rudder / weapons (left and right variable triggers). Little surprise the first game it worked with was After Burner 2. It owes nothing to the SNES and everything to remote control devices for things like planes and cars.
It wasn't standard either, and only ever worked with a handful of titles. Unlike with N64, where every game could take advantage of precise analog controls...
The Saturn "3D controller" as it was called, actually worked with every Saturn game, but only a few in analogue mode. In analogue mode the D-pad could still be used. N64 did have analogue thumbstick as standard, but someone else coming up with analogue thumbsticks years earlier takes some of the shine off it!
I think Nintendo must have thought the pad layout was appalling too, in retrospect. It was their first go though, and at least they made analogue a standard thing and advanced the movement for everyone. The actual analogue stick on the N64 was actually very good IMO, and one of my favourites.
Nintendo tried to make an analogue pad and they came up with a trident (wtf!?), digital triggers and a truly horrible "C" button. They didn't know what to do with the Dpad and stuck it on an extra prong out to the side where you couldn't even reach it. It's crap! It's so crap that Nintendo dropped the ENTIRE LAYOUT along with the god awful "C" button and didn't make any reference to the design, at all, in any of their future pads ever again.
Sega made an analogue pad and put the analogue stick top left, the Dpad underneath and inset so you could reach it without repositioning your hand, and put analogue triggers on the top.
Hmm, I wonder, which does the GC pad base its layout on; the N64, the NES, or the Saturn/DC? Even Miyamoto joked about how the GC pad looked like the DC pad. Based on the NES pad? Not in any but the most general sense.
Sony OTOH actually did based their pad on a Nintendo layout and it shows very, very clearly; the Dual Shock is a SNES pad with analogue sticks stuck on the bottom. The GC pad was completely different and almost identical to Sega's designs rather than any of Nintendo's previous ones.
You're serious? The Megadrive pad had a large button in the center with three bean-shaped buttons surrounding it? Gosh, I never knew!!! All this time I thought the Megadrive pad was three buttons in a slightly arcing row!
Look at the buttons and how you reach them. Three buttons in a row, angled at about 30 degrees to the line of the pad, with another button perpendicular to and above the middle button. You might claim that Nintendo had never ever seen a Megadrive pad, and for the sake of argument we can accept that for now, but the idea behind the optimal layout for the four buttons is the same.
Maybe it's just another thing that Nintendo independently re-invented, having failed to notice one of their main competitors doing in their most successful ever product.
Nintendo made the right call IMO; the Megadrive / Gamecube arrangement of face buttons is better than the diamond layout which everyone (including Sega) ended up copying simply because Nintendo made it popular.
I don't agree.
But 1990 comes before 1996!
I agree completely about the Saturn controller - best digital pad of all time. I even got one of those USB converters so I could use an original Saturn pad with my PC.
It was almost like they were in denial or something, while overestimating their ability to hold back the rate of progress in home consoles.
lol, Virtual Boy. When I finally got to use one a few years back I thought it was actually pretty neat and only really a failure because of the red and black palette - until eyestrain and delayed neck stiffness convinced me otherwise.
Physical immersion now interests me far more than things like raw power or disk capacity or anything like that. Full wraparound vision from a VR system is the kind of thing that would get me to buy a new system on day one - even if it was ultimately doomed to failure because it was from a company like Sega.
That's not a Sega product! It's some kind of third-party monstrosity.
Anyway, what on earth are you going to use an analog pad for a 2D raster graphics based system for? No wonder it never caught on.
And works with how many games again?!?!?
I don't see how you can be so sure. The SNES pad would have been well known in developer circles long before the release of the console.
More like 3 games, actually. It was a laugh for sure. When not used for playing games with, it also doubled as a dinner plate...
It was pretty decent I thought as well, but its construction was too fragile. It wore out fairly easily...
Every analog pad since that I've opened up uses what looks like magnetic flux potentiometers instead of optomechanical components. That helps a lot with durability; I've not had the analog sticks on my GC, original Xbox controller (used for emulation purposes on my PC) or PS3 come close to get worn...I thought the C-buttons were great for first-person games. I hate dual analog controls for shooters, it makes precise aiming and circle-strafing a real bitch. The digital nature of the buttons gave first-person shooters a more "WASD:y" PC feel. Also, C-buttons were good for stuff like items in Zelda, and so on...
You're reaching so much it's actually physically stretching out my monitor to a cinemascope aspect ratio!Maybe it's just another thing that Nintendo independently re-invented, having failed to notice one of their main competitors doing in their most successful ever product.
The GC buttons are clearly laid out the way they are because of the anatomy of the human hand (thumb joints in particular), not in some lame ass attempt to copy a more than ten year older product...
corduroygt
Banned
I should have said developed
Bayonetta: not strong on presentation, and only Sega involvement was the weak PS3 port.
VF5: Mediocre
VC: Great game, which again fails on presentation, for example not including trophy support at a time where all other PS3 releases did.
RoF: Again, mediocre presentation.
None of them sold that great either.
Maybe I pay too much attention to presentation, but anything Sega touches is not in the same league as the industry leaders as far as the overall polish of the final product.
It never caught on, but it did influence the design of Sega's 3D controller, which in turn was the basis for the DC controller, which in turn was outright blatantly copied by both Nintendo for the GC and MS for the Xbox.
So in a funny way, the influence of the AX-1E can still be felt every time you play Halo or Forza. Not bad, considering.
And works with how many games again?!?!?
Two more than it needed to.
Having been so awesome as to put on an analogue thumbstick for the flight stick, and a second analogue thumbstick for the throttle, I can't see the designer of the AX-1E forgetting to put on the triggers for rudder/weapons. And they didn't just put on triggers, they put on analogue triggers.
And even if they couldn't have worked out analogue triggers for rudder etc (I rate the likelihood of this as almost zero), Nintendo didn't invent shoulder buttons either, so the SNES pad still doesn't get the credit.
They were only one axis (on the second stick) off having everything you need for Halo. And this was in 1990. Whoever made this pad deserves to be a legend.
Off the top of my head, I can remember having at least 8 games that supported analogue (and I know there were considerably more). That includes driving games with analogue steering AND analogue brake and accelerator! Beat that, N64!
It was pretty decent I thought as well, but its construction was too fragile. It wore out fairly easily...
My N64 probably didn't get as much use as yours, but I did notice a build up on plastic powder around the bottom of the analogue stick, and it started making funny sounds. The length of the N64 stick made it easy to be accurate in a way I haven't been on pads since. For example, the rupee shooting contest on Ocarina of Time: I had no problem finishing that on the N64, but on GC with it's shorter, stubbier stick I jerk around and miss, then want to throw the pad down in frustration. Kind of similar to what happens to me in Halo 3 multiplayer.
I remember smashing a Saturn analogue pad in rage after an RPG failed to save the game. It used magnets.
Maybe it's my big thumbs, but I never felt happy with the C buttons. I'd have preferred 6 full size buttons to 4 + 2, but the downside would have been losing the Solitaire aiming mode in Goldeneye I guess.
You're reaching so much it's actually physically stretching out my monitor to a cinemascope aspect ratio!
The GC buttons are clearly laid out the way they are because of the anatomy of the human hand (thumb joints in particular), not in some lame ass attempt to copy a more than ten year older product...
Maybe no-one in the GC pad development team had ever seen a Megadrive pad (they'd clearly seen plenty of Saturn/DC pads), or maybe some of them had but they'd forgotten and came up with arranging the buttons that way from scratch all on their own. Whatever, I'm sure they tested until they were happy, and didn't blindly copy anything.
But the fact that Sega did it thirteen years earlier, and that Nintendo ditched the diamond arrangement to use it, just shows how awesome Sega could be when they weren't being rubbish.
So anyway, a list of things that neither Sega nor Nintendo invented:
Analogue thumbsticks
Analogue triggers
Shoulder buttons
VF5 is superb. Plays amazingly well online, only wish there were more people and that I had a joystick.
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