Blue-ray DVD : Toshiba format approved, Sony format rejected

[Vince]

I'd also like to emphasize the importance of MPEG4/WM9/H.264 which is the ability for HD movies to use the same red laser DVD-9 media we have today like the T2 Extreme Edition HD-DVD.

I'd also like to emphasize the importance that as the consumer I don't care what laser technology is underlying my ability to watch a movie as long as I've been given the best technology they [corperations] can offer and I can buy for my hard earned money.

I'd also like to emphasize the superior quality and data storage that's been put into the BD-ROM spec which will produce the better experience for the end user. Without sacrificing the customer so some CEO/CFO lard-ass post bigger earnings by not updating his inferior and out of date infastructure.

I as a consumer am interested in watching HD-DVDs and if the movie studios like the AOD/HD-DVD format better because it's cheaper for them to produce then I have no problem with that. I have little need for an MO drive that can't play movies except for home videos.

I as a consumer am interested in watching HD-DVDs at the best possible quality with the best possible technology, best possible future expansion, and best possible experience for my - since that'se whose money is being spent.

I as a consumer aren't interesting in sacrificing my long-term enjoyment so some large corperations can utilize their out of date infastructure longer and post higher profits at my expense.

Also, as a consumer I look forward to watching my BD-ROM based movies comming out of atleast Sony and Disney's media houses come 2005.

 

[chapback]

But, any intelligent person can see that on equal footing BD-ROM has the potential to have more advanced and more diverse content and connectivity than AOD by design (eg. technology and implemenation). Plain and simple

I was told the same thing about Xbox potential....but we know what happens..
At least Xbox is staying strong.

I can't talk about content as the damn things don't exist and as such can't have content.

Loving the hardware! Nothing wrong.

PS2 (AOD) vs XBox (BR)? How shallow is this thinking - this whole, "AOD is inferior like PS2 and BD is superior like XBox"... it's embarrasing.

Isnt PS2 tech is inferior to Xbox just as AOD is to BR?

BD-ROM will be accepted by the hardware manufacturers, not the Hollywood Execs.

It takes 2 coins to chink chink!

It's just as easy to look at it from a corperate standpoint where you see BD-ROM being supported by the major CE corps (just as PS2 was supported by the big Dev houses and Publishers) and AOD is this PC-acrry over technology that's weak on powerful CE backers.

Dont really care about this BR vs AOD thing. Just to point out Vincey love for better hardware and fook those money gouging execs! Samey as me! We are the good bros!

BUT it aint nice to see yeay BR to PS2. PS2 has more things on it than what BR has now.

Stronger technology aint always the victorious.

 

[PC-Engine]

Just a bit of additional info and some opinions.

• Blu-ray was never proposed to the DVD Forum. The Blu-ray companies feel that because it is new technology, the companies that developed the technology should receive licensing money instead of the DVD Forum.

The reason that Toshiba and NEC developed AOD was so that they could continue receiving licensing money into the next generation of products.

• The movie studios haven't made deals with either format. They will release their movies on which ever format has the bigger user base.

Now the opinions.

- I doubt that PS3 will use blu-ray for games. It would probably be too expensive at the time that PS3's release is scheduled. It's possible the they will bring out a PSX version of PS3 that includes a blu-ray movie player though.

- I blame Toshiba and NEC for the inevitable format war. I agree that the companies who developed blu-ray should be entitled to the licensing money and not the DVD Forum. To keep the money rolling in at Toshiba and NEC they have created their rival format (AOD).

I will buy which ever format comes out on top, but if that format is AOD, I won't be buying my player from Toshiba or NEC.

Actually there are some misinformation in your statements.

NEC's blue laser format and Toshiba's were independently researched formats. When NEC submitted their proposal to the DVD Forum Toshiba noticed that it was very similar to their format which was in development also. The two companies decided to work together and create a single format because it was the obvious thing to do since both formats were almost exactly the same with the same goals of compatibility ease of transition etc.

The NEC/Toshiba AOD format was not a copy of the BD format. Both NEC/Toshiba reseached their respective blue laser formats while the BD group were doing thiers. One didn't proceed the other. NEC doesn't receive licensing royalties from the AOD format nor does it receive royalties for any other DVD Forum format. The AOD format was developed because it offers the best balance of compability and performance not because of royalties as NEC doesn't receive royalties.

The Hollywood studios will support the DVD Forum's HD-DVD format because it makes sense to them requiring minimal investment. There's little reason for them to back BD since they're only interested in costs. Also if you didn't already realize Time Warner owns Warner Bros. who voted in favor of AOD.

 

[PC-Engine]

I'd also like to emphasize the importance of MPEG4/WM9/H.264 which is the ability for HD movies to use the same red laser DVD-9 media we have today like the T2 Extreme Edition HD-DVD.

I'd also like to emphasize the importance that as the consumer I don't care what laser technology is underlying my ability to watch a movie as long as I've been given the best technology they [corperations] can offer and I can buy for my hard earned money.

I'd also like to emphasize the superior quality and data storage that's been put into the BD-ROM spec which will produce the better experience for the end user. Without sacrificing the customer so some CEO/CFO lard-ass post bigger earnings by not updating his inferior and out of date infastructure.

I as a consumer am interested in watching HD-DVDs and if the movie studios like the AOD/HD-DVD format better because it's cheaper for them to produce then I have no problem with that. I have little need for an MO drive that can't play movies except for home videos.

I as a consumer am interested in watching HD-DVDs at the best possible quality with the best possible technology, best possible future expansion, and best possible experience for my - since that'se whose money is being spent.

I as a consumer aren't interesting in sacrificing my long-term enjoyment so some large corperations can utilize their out of date infastructure longer and post higher profits at my expense.

Also, as a consumer I look forward to watching my BD-ROM based movies comming out of atleast Sony and Disney's media houses come 2005.

In that case you should get a D-VHS recorder/player as it has more HD content than either BD or AOD

The only thing BD has going for it is a slight advantage in storage capacity. Everything else AOD can do. BD only supports MPEG2 while AOD will support MPEG4, MM9, H.264 or any combination of them.

 

[Vince]

In that case you should get a D-VHS recorder/player as it has more HD content than either BD or AOD

The only thing BD has going for it is a slight advantage in storage capacity. Everything else AOD can do. BD only supports MPEG2 while AOD will support MPEG4, MM9, H.264 or any combination of them.

You pull this stupid line of argument everytime you find yourself in an awkward position. Most recently with Democoder in the LCD/Plasma debate who, quite frankly, gave you a new butthole.

Why you choose to support sub-par standards which are clearly inferior (but supported by specific entities) and not in the interests of the consumer are beyond me.

As per supporting MPEG4/MM9/H.264 over MPEG2 - I'm wondering where the issue of quality went and how this is such a bonus. Because, honestly, it's not.

If you're into supporting established standards wrt Digital Media, then support BD-ROM for preserving the MPEG2 standard that's widespread and been finetuned in front-end media houses. The actual, physical, form of delivery is insignificant as it's basically transparent to the consumer with the burden on the manufacturer. Yet, you won't see any inconsistency

 

[V3]

Hmm you all seems to know alot about this Blue Ray. So to save me time from looking around.

I want to get one of those Blue Ray recorder for Xmast present.

There are so many spec, however, I want the 50GB per side one, so I can fit 100 GB on a disc.

Can anyone suggest which model to get ?

 

[Vince]

Can anyone suggest which model to get ?

If you absolutly must have one today, then:

Review

If you can hold out for a bit:

Blu-Ray Players

 

[rabidrabbit]

Is there really a need for tens of gigs of read only storage space in next gen games?

As there propably won't be any high definition full motion video on future game discs, and as the game engine will be used more and more for non-interactive game video, what is that storage space needed for? Game code? Textures? more detailed polygon models?

How much of current games fill a single side DVD disc?
Wouldn't a dual sided recordable dvd be enough for next gen consoles?
Is the transfer speed of BR-DVD and AOD so much faster that it itself is a huge advantage over todays format(s)?

Of course, if the next gen consoles are to be more than just for gaming, these high capacity discs would be great, but not necessary (IMO).
I'd be happy enough with dual sided DVD RW + HDD + next gen game console + net connectivity

 

[V3]

Thanks Vince,

I am confused, does this mean since April this year, there is no other BR player released except that Sony BR ?

That Sony BR is only at 23 GB. Its not even double sided.

Well, I don't need it today, but I need it soon, for Xmast present, So unfortunately, I can't wait till next year

Is there any BR player with 50 GB per side, that is coming out before Xmast ?

If not this would be sux, well if I've got no choice I just have to get that Sony one. My present would be kinda dull this year

 

[PC-Engine]

In that case you should get a D-VHS recorder/player as it has more HD content than either BD or AOD

The only thing BD has going for it is a slight advantage in storage capacity. Everything else AOD can do. BD only supports MPEG2 while AOD will support MPEG4, MM9, H.264 or any combination of them.

You pull this stupid line of argument everytime you find yourself in an awkward position. Most recently with Democoder in the LCD/Plasma debate who, quite frankly, gave you a new butthole.

Why you choose to support sub-par standards which are clearly inferior (but supported by specific entities) and not in the interests of the consumer are beyond me.

As per supporting MPEG4/MM9/H.264 over MPEG2 - I'm wondering where the issue of quality went and how this is such a bonus. Because, honestly, it's not.

If you're into supporting established standards wrt Digital Media, then support BD-ROM for preserving the MPEG2 standard that's widespread and been finetuned in front-end media houses. The actual, physical, form of delivery is insignificant as it's basically transparent to the consumer with the burden on the manufacturer. Yet, you won't see any inconsistency

Actually Democoder in the end shifted to arguing about the humans' ability to see more than 16 million distinct colors (which I brought up) because he couldn't explain why a PC LCD with a CR of only 400:1 beat out the majority of plasmas that the same reviewer reviewed which had at least twice the CR. His whole plasma vs LCD image quality advantage argument was based on his belief and his experience that CR was the deciding factor which in fact it isn't according to the reviewers results. His blanket statment about LCDs inability to produce shadow detail was debunked by the reviews since some LCDs can produce 10-bit greyscale. As a matter of fact Pioneer boasted about their plasmas being able to display 10-bit grey scale which is ironic.

It's kinda like your belief that MPEG2 is better than MPEG4/H.264/WM9 which it isn't at the same bitrate. The other benefit is the fact you will be able to record HD onto existing media which is already available and the recorders based on red laser are cheap too. The codec won't add much to the overall cost of a recorder.

Regarding subpar technology...well VHS was subpar to BETAMAX, but guess what happend? The emergence of VHS HQ then S-VHS

hey good pc-engine, you be knowing the estimated cost of average AOD player + disc?

The cost of a AOD player depends on the cost of the MPEG4/WM9/H.264 decoder and blue laser. The ROM disc will be priced a little higher than regular DVDs because of the HD content. The cost to manufacture the disc should be negligable to the consumer.

In other words, you would have to change the drive 4-5 times... and you could have just bought one single Blu-Ray player

The problem is the single BD player won't be available cheaply until 2006 or later.

 

[V3]

The problem is the single BD player won't be available cheaply until 2006 or later.

That Sony one is pretty cheap. But it lack alot of stuff though

 

[rabidrabbit]

...

If not this would be sux, well if I've got no choice I just have to get that Sony one. My present would be kinda dull this year

oh yeah, that really sucks to get such dull presents... I bet you'd be willing to trade it with the glorious christmas presents I'll be getting (again) this year; some underwear and socks, and if I'm lucky there'll be some chocolate and a dvd movie or PS2 game that I bought to myself

 

[bigbud120]

Actually there are some misinformation in your statements.

NEC's blue laser format and Toshiba's were independently researched formats. When NEC submitted their proposal to the DVD Forum Toshiba noticed that it was very similar to their format which was in development also. The two companies decided to work together and create a single format because it was the obvious thing to do since both formats were almost exactly the same with the same goals of compatibility ease of transition etc.

True. I should have checked up on that bit, I haven't followed this stuff for a while.

The NEC/Toshiba AOD format was not a copy of the BD format. Both NEC/Toshiba reseached their respective blue laser formats while the BD group were doing thiers. One didn't proceed the other.

Same as above, but I want to add that if blu-ray had been proposed to the DVD Forum it would have been accepted. Not only because so many blu-ray companies are on the steering committee , but because Toshiba would have continued to receive their licensing money so would have been content with blu-ray as the new standard.

NEC doesn't receive licensing royalties from the AOD format nor does it receive royalties for any other DVD Forum format. The AOD format was developed because it offers the best balance of compability and performance not because of royalties as NEC doesn't receive royalties.

I wasn't sure about NEC but I knew that Toshiba received licensing money as they were one of the companies that created the specifications of DVD.

Also if you didn't already realize Time Warner owns Warner Bros. who voted in favor of AOD.

Really? I thought Time Warner was a person.

To be honest, I'm not sure whether AOD companies plan to bring out AOD players before the studios decide which format to support like Sony has. If they do, then I imagine which ever format sells better will be backed by the studios.

If the studios back one format before both types of players are on the market, then that format will win.

What I really don't want to see, is different studios taking different sides. It will suck for the consumer if Time Warner release their stuff only on AOD and Sony release their stuff only on blu-ray.

 

[V3]

oh yeah, that really sucks to get such dull presents... I bet you'd be willing to trade it with the glorious christmas presents I'll be getting (again) this year

The presents are not for me, its for some of my cousins, who are enthusiast about these stuff.

I don't get myself a present, what's the point of that Beside I have no use or that much interest in BR. That's why I am asking people on this board

 

[PC-Engine]

I wasn't sure about NEC but I knew that Toshiba received licensing money as they were one of the companies that created the specifications of DVD.

Sure but SONY/Philips also codeveloped the original DVD format so wouldn't they also receive licensing money? Aren't they part of the BD group?

 

[rabidrabbit]

oh yeah, that really sucks to get such dull presents... I bet you'd be willing to trade it with the glorious christmas presents I'll be getting (again) this year

I don't get myself a present, what's the point of that Beside I have no use or that much interest in BR. That's why I am asking people on this board

Getting xmas presents for yourself started making sense to me as I always only got 'practical' presents like ugly clothes, 'things that are needed in the house' or 'I really wanted this for myself but I'm giving it to you as a present' and such... If I want something that is fun and keeps me entertained through the holidays (a vacuum cleaner is not such) I must buy them myself

 

[nondescript]

Oh, back to AOD/HD-DVD vs BR.

How is this news? BR is not part of the DVD Forum (I don't think), its a completely different standard. I don't expect BR to be "approved" by the DVD forum anymore than I expect my car to be approved by the FDA (Food and Drug Administration, for itn'l readers).

Approving AOD/HD-DVD? We'll, if the DVD Forum expects to stay alive for the next-generation of optical media, they need a new format - are there any other competing DVD-compatible formats? (Is the EVD compatible w/ DVD?)

How is this surprising to anyone? The DVD Forum passes its own format, while BR, which never had anything to do with the DVD Forum, continues on. Oh, and BR was never "rejected" by the DVD Forum. The title of this thread is delibrately inflammatory, as well as being flatly wrong. (How unsurprising.)

Anyways, as I have said in previous threads (PC-Engine, you remember ), the standard that has the broadest consumer application will win. And if PS3 has BR, I believe BR will have the advantage, just by the sheer volume PS3 will bring.

(And why are we talking about this? Oh, right, because the word "Sony" was in the article...)

And, lest we forget in the midst of our bickering, Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[cybamerc]

Paul:

> When it comes down to it, these companies have the staying power.

Ultimately it will need content to survive though. Sony Pictures seem likely to back the format. Disney has already pledged support but then again, Disney also backed Divx.

Not saying BRD is doomed or anything but just because there are a lot of hardware companies behind it doesn't mean it is destined for success either. And I can definitely see several of the BRD founders also supporting HD-DVD.

> They have designed around a 25GB version of the disk that doesn't use the caddy

Yeah... crappy move IMO. The caddy was the best part. Obviously it will make the format more competitive but still... a caddy is long overdue for optical formats.



Vince:

Wow... contradictions abound.

You'd have to be a frickin' moron to support AOD over BD-ROM. If someone offers me a superior product based on superior technology with better future expansion and potential - you expect me to turn that down for a hack (which this is) that panders to some large corperations that don't want to upgrade their inferior infastructure?

I, as the consumer, want the product that is the most superior for myself, not some fat-ass buisnessman's ability to put a bigger number on his SEC filing and another Benz in his garage.

The crux of my argument is that I - as the consumer - want the best platform for my money

This is perfectly accruable to my position wrt PS2/Xbox/Cube in which I want the platform that provides the best solution for the consumer. Which I think we can establish as the PS2

You go from arguing in favor of (what you believe to be) technical superiority to making excuses for the lack of technical superiority because of the widespread availability of content.

> As for why you, the consumer, want an inferior product is beyond me.

The problem is that inferior to you means "not backed by Sony". While I agree that Blu-ray has it advantages HD-DVD has others. Ultimately I think we can agree that support is the central issue for any open format. If HD-DVD has more support it will be the superior choice.

> just like XBox.

Um... I have no love for Xbox but implying that PS2 is somehow a more complete solution is just ridiculous. PS2 succeeded not because of technical superiority but because of support.

> as long as I've been given the best technology they [corperations] can offer

Does that not include compression technology?

 

[jvd]

Why do these threads allways remind me of a cesspool? You'd have to be a frickin' moron to support AOD over BD-ROM. If someone offers me a superior product based on superior technology with better future expansion and potential - you expect me to turn that down for a hack (which this is) that panders to some large corperations that don't want to upgrade their inferior infastructure?

Beta vs vhs . Thats all I have to say

 

[cthellis42]

WWF vs. WCW (though I guess it's all moot now )