Blue-ray DVD : Toshiba format approved, Sony format rejected

[DeadmeatGA]

Toshiba blue laser tech chosen for HD DVD spec.
By Tony Smith
Posted: 27/11/2003 at 12:00 GMT

The DVD Forum, the industry body responsible for defining and maintaining the DVD standard, has approved Toshiba and NEC's suggestion for a version of the format that will support HDTV.

The proposed specification is based on a blue laser optical system, yielding a disc capacity of 15-20GB per side. The format uses the same disc structure as today's DVDs.

However, while the Forum voted 8:6 to support the Toshiba/NEC format, it only agreed to use the read-only implementation. The two companies also offered a rewritable version, but that failed to gain a majority vote.

Technically, neither did the ROM format, EE Times reports. The victory was achieved only through new voting rules that ignore abstentions. In two past ballots, based on previous regulations, the Toshiba/NEC format did not achieve a majority vote.

Crucially, the Toshiba/NEC format offers backward compatibility with the current DVD standard. However, it's up against a powerful consortium of key consumer electronics players, including Sony, Philips, Matsushita and Samsung, who back the incompatible Blu-Ray format.

As we've seen with DVD-R/-RW and DVD+R/+RW, the two formats are likely to go head to head in the market, despite the Forum's support for a particular technology. Blu-Ray has not been offered to the Forum as the basis of a future DVD spec., but it will be offered to the market as the next generation of write-once/rewritable optical storage technology.

Sony began shipping Blu-Ray based storage product this month. ®

Seems that Toshiba and Sony Electronics aren't all that buddies afterall, just Toshiba and SCEI.

 

[Paul]

Let's see...

9 of the biggest giants in the electronics business vs Toshiba and NEC. I wonder who has the biggest mindshare and staying power to back up their format.

Either way, your offtopic and trolling again.

 

[DeadmeatGA]

...

9 of the biggest giants in the electronics business vs Toshiba and NEC. I wonder who has the biggest mindshare and staying power to back up their format.

Toshiba had the votes so it won. If Toshiba and Sony wages the DVD format war once again, I suppose the Taiwanese drive venders, PC industry, and Hollywood will back the Toshiba format...

 

[Paul]

Oh and please.... a Sony only format?

Hitachi, LG Electronics, Matsushita Electric Industrial, Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, Sony and Thomson

Try that on for size.

 

[DeadmeatGA]

...

Hitachi, LG Electronics, Matsushita Electric Industrial, Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, Sony and Thomson

So what? They lost. They all have to abid to the standard or the DVD forum's purpose is defeated.

Beside, there is China's EVD, which promised to do HDTV-grade video for only $200....

 

[Paul]

Never knew another company was included. It now stands as 10.

Hitachi, Ltd.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Royal Philips Electronics
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
Thomson Multimedia

These companies aren't abandoning Blu-Ray and building Toshiba and NEC players. When it comes down to it, these companies have the staying power. And what's going to happen when there are atleast 100 million BR players installed in homes by 2010?(PS3)

Blu-ray isn't going anywhere.

 

[DeadmeatGA]

...

when there are atleast 100 million BR players installed in homes by 2010?(PS3)

From what I have seen, I wouldn't be shocked if SCEI went with HD-DVD instead of Blue-Ray. Approved HD-DVD has backing from MS, IBM, and Hollywood. Afterall, Sony Electronics is SCEI's biggest rival and competitor...

 

[Paul]

You haven't seen anything. Did you also see how Kutaragi was promoted in charge of pushing Blu-ray? Gee I wonder.

It's not going anywhere.

To say that 10 of the biggest electronics companies all of which have agreed upon and established Blu-ray will just abandon it is just ludacris. There are already players out and more to come.

 

[DeadmeatGA]

...

Now I know why Hollywood backed HD-DVD. HD-DVD can be produced on current DVD pressing facility, while Blue-Ray requires a new facility because of its cartridge format.

When Hollywood backs HD-DVD over Blue-Ray, I think the game's over...

 

[Paul]

BR won't need the caddy come 2005, they are ditching it. They have designed around a 25GB version of the disk that doesn't use the caddy, something PS3 will use.

 

[DeadmeatGA]

...

BR won't need the caddy come 2005, they are ditching it. They have designed around a 25GB version of the disk that doesn't use the caddy, something PS3 will use.

It's too late. HD-DVD is approved and the train has left the town. Unless Sony intends to produce a DVD player that only plays Sony Pictures movies....

 

[Panajev2001a]

Re: ...

Now I know why Hollywood backed HD-DVD. HD-DVD can be produced on current DVD pressing facility, while Blue-Ray requires a new facility because of its cartridge format.

When Hollywood backs HD-DVD over Blue-Ray, I think the game's over...

It shows how much you "know": for what concerns Hollywood, that is movie sold at retail there is no such a worry.

Blu-Ray Read-Only specs include the lack of cartridge and a hard-coating on the disk used instead.

So no cartridge worry for Hollywood backers.

Also the DVD forum has not rejected Blu-Ray just yet, your headline is as usual misleading at best.

 

[Paul]

Oh please DM... You act as if though this is a done deal.

as approved Toshiba and NEC's suggestion for a version of the format that will support HDTV.

However, it's up against a powerful consortium of key consumer electronics players, including Sony, Philips, Matsushita and Samsung, who back the incompatible Blu-Ray format.

The train has left the station...

 

[DeadmeatGA]

...

Also the DVD forum has not rejected Blu-Ray just yet, your headline is as usual misleading at best.

Meaning what? They are going to have two incompatible standards???? Of course you know that's not going to happen. It was a PC-industry+Hollywood Vs Consumer Electronics war, and guess the PC-industry and Hollywood won...

 

[Panajev2001a]

Also, pushing for compatibility with AOD is relatively trivial in terms of engineering and costs.

Two Lasers ne for CD/DVD/AOD ( DVD and AOD mode would use the same NA setting and different wavelenght ) and one for Blu-Ray.

Or even a single multi-purpose laser... DVD and CD use a different NA and different wavelenght and PlayStation 2 is still able to use the same laser for both.

Do you think the Blu-Ray founding group will let $65 Billions of total R&D go to waste by simply dropping the format all-together ?

BTW, Disney is still backing Blu-Ray... all Hollywood is not exactly against Blu-Ray...

Your argument about the cartridges and Hollywood worried about it and refusing Blu-Ray for that does not hold water as the specs for Read-Only Blu-Ray ( and it is possible to make the Re-Writeable ones the same way it seems, using Hard-coating ) call for naked discs + hard coating.

 

[DeadmeatGA]

...

Also, pushing for compatibility with AOD is relatively trivial in terms of engineering and costs.

Then the manufacturers are hit with dual licensing fee; one for HD-DVD and another for Blue-Ray.

Two Lasers ne for CD/DVD/AOD ( DVD and AOD mode would use the same NA setting and different wavelenght ) and one for Blu-Ray.

An unacceptable solution.

Do you think the Blu-Ray founding group will let $65 Billions of total R&D go to waste by simply dropping the format all-together ?

What can they do? The content providers and software firms support HD-DVD over Blue-Ray. What good is a Blue-Ray player when content providers won't support???

Your argument about the cartridges and Hollywood worried about it and refusing Blu-Ray for that does not hold water as the specs for Read-Only Blu-Ray ( and it is possible to make the Re-Writeable ones the same way it seems, using Hard-coating ) call for naked discs + hard coating.

HD-DVD was approved because it HAD the votes. And we know where the votes came from; PC industry and Hollywood.

 

[DeadmeatGA]

...

At best, Blue-Ray is going to be nothing but a VHS taping replacement, while HD-DVD will become the primary content delivery format.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Re: ...

Also, pushing for compatibility with AOD is relatively trivial in terms of engineering and costs.

Then the manufacturers are hit with dual licensing fee; one for HD-DVD and another for Blue-Ray.

Poor manufacturers taht support now CD, DVD, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R, DVD+RW and DVD-RW...

That is not going to be a major problem.

Two Lasers ne for CD/DVD/AOD ( DVD and AOD mode would use the same NA setting and different wavelenght ) and one for Blu-Ray.

An unacceptable solution.

Why ? You are acting like it has never been done before...

How did they do backward compatibility with CDs in DVD players ( for PC or for set-op boxes ) before single laser solutions came out ?

Do you think the Blu-Ray founding group will let $65 Billions of total R&D go to waste by simply dropping the format all-together ?

What can they do?[/quote

I already told you what they can do after spending so much money working on that format, if they do not want to go against the DVD forum, add AOD compatibility using a single laser solution ( possible ).

The cost difference for Blu-Ray players and AOD players ( both using a naked disc format with hard-coating and both using a single laser for backward compatibility with CDs and DVDs ) is not high... why should it be ?

Your argument about the cartridges went "puff" in the air as that is not a worry anymore.

 

[DeadmeatGA]

..

Poor manufacturers taht support now CD, DVD, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R, DVD+RW and DVD-RW...

Do all drives support all DVD formats? No. Drive and player venders have to choose which format they can support...

add AOD compatibility using a single laser solution ( possible ).

And the Blue-Ray manufacturers would have to pay the license fee twice. At around $15 per standard, the cost burden is too much to bear in the cut-throat consumer electronics market whereas HD-DVD player venders will have to pay only once. This cost difference alone will drive Blue-Ray out of market.

 

[PC-Engine]

AOD is now a DVD Forum format (HD-DVD) and not the property of NEC/Toshiba anymore. Over 60 member companies back AOD, however, only a few were part of the Steering Ccommittee hence AOD failing to be approved unil now but that is also changing with more open seats up for grabs in the Steering Committee. This decision is a major blow to the BR group because it means Hollywood has decided on the format they'll be using to release future HD-DVD movies.

WSR Reber: Is there anything else you want to say that you think is important to convey to our readers that we didn’t adequately cover?

Yamada: I would like to say that the NEC/Toshiba proposal is not NEC/Toshiba’s property. That has become the DVD Forum’s property. That is very important to understand. We want to make it an open standard, and we would like everyone to participate in this discussion to improve an open standard specification. That is our intention.

Yamada: I think that if a very good format is proposed, the Steering Committee should approve it. If some companies create a format outside the DVD Forum, that is their choice and we have no objection. In fact, more than 200 members of the DVD Forum have an interest in the current AOD proposal, so we are confident that it will be approved.

WSR Reber: After all the work that has been done in the DVD Forum’s Working Group 11 to study and promote the best technical approach to HD-DVD, what say do the other companies, who are not members of the Blu-ray Disc Founders, but involved in the DVD Forum process, have?

Yamada: In fact, the current readout for WG 11-1 is such that 66 companies are participating out of the 94 companies of the principal members of DVD Forum. This means that really a majority of the principal members have an interest in our proposal and are supporting it.

WSR Reber: But, of course, of those 66 companies, not all of them are on the Steering Committee, and the decision has to be made by the Steering Committee. Is that correct?

Yamada: Yes.

WSR Reber: I understand that you have been explaining the AOD format this week to studios and the American Society of Cinematographers here at Laser Pacific.

Yamada: Yes.

WSR Reber: So the studios have been coming in and out all week to discuss the AOD format and see demonstrations. Now if the Blu-ray Disc Founders continue their development toward the planned introduction of BD in the U.S. in late 2005 or early 2006—they have already had an introduction in Japan for a recordable version using a protective disc cartridge—and Columbia/ Tri-Star, which is one of the studios owned by Sony, comes on board to support the Blu-ray Disc (BD) format with feature film releases, do you think that the other studios will follow Columbia/Tri-Star and also release in the BD format, or do you think the studios have other interests and will want to be independent of Columbia/TriStar and the Sony-backed BD format?

Yamada: I think the studios are really independent. That is my impression so far from the studios that we’ve had conversations with.

Hayatsu: They are very much concerned about the media cost…

WSR Reber: You mean replication costs?

Hayatsu: They claim that there are one billion DVD discs replicated in a year.

WSR Reber: That is a lot of money expended on replication.

Hayatsu: In the case of Blu-ray Discs, if they need a protective disc cartridge, the cartridge costs at least one dollar at this moment.

WSR Reber: But the Blu-ray Disc Founders say they do not need a cartridge, that they have developed a hard surface protection…

Hayatsu: That may be so-called “hard coating,†but they still need an additional process and material cost for a hard coating in comparison to normal discs. There are still some additional costs nevertheless.

Yamada: That’s right.

Hayatsu: Five to seven cents added expenditure might be costly in terms of millions of Blu-ray Discs. The success of the hard coating hasn’t been determined yet nor the added production cost per unit.

The only option for the BR group is to make their players compatible with AOD if they want consumers to buy them and watch HD-DVD movies on them, however as DMGA mentioned, licensing fees would be a significant factor.