"Blu-ray support a last minute switch, Microsoft says..."

[onanie]

Everything MS says is from MS's business perspective. Of course MS wants to push forward initiatives that support their platforms, consumers, and innovations (read: products they have developed and would like to see become a standard).

But as far as we know Wintel can be simply drawing up the most important talking points to FORCE Toshiba and Sony back to the negotiating table. There is a lot at stake, and size is NOT the only factor. Companies are backing the formats based on what is best for them in their market.

From a business perspective, we wouldn't expect MS to be praising its competitor's format. My main concern is the general ease with which some are accepting Microsoft's assertions as factual - that somehow HD-DVD is far far more advanced in its progress when it has yet to sell a single unit of hardware.

Size ultimately is an important factor. Why the push for HD formats otherwise?

 

[c0_re]

From a business perspective, we wouldn't expect MS to be praising its competitor's format. My main concern is the general ease with which some are accepting Microsoft's assertions as factual - that somehow HD-DVD is far far more advanced in its progress when it has yet to sell a single unit of hardware.

Size ultimately is an important factor. Why the push for HD formats otherwise?

The reason it's easier for MOST to believe this is because HDDVD is simpler\cheaper and more closely related to current DVD technology.

 

[onanie]

The reason it's easier for MOST to believe this is because HDDVD is simpler\cheaper and more closely related to current DVD technology.

That is one dimension of the issue. The real question is by how much is it simpler or cheaper? Enough to worry potential uptakers? Enough to trickle down to retail positioning?

 

[rabidrabbit]

No I’m just saying that, a hybrid HDDVD disk wouldn't be "inferior" in quality there's plenty of space available on these disks and part of the new standard for HighDef DVD is different compressions technologies, not just MPEG2 which is ancient and horribly inefficient.


I mean I havn't bougten a single DVD since lord of the rings SE came out, there a waste of money becuse I have a HDTV(going on 5 years) and 480p is crap when I have a High def Tivo and can download high def movies online for free. Why would I pay 15-20$ for a 480p movie? thats just stupid

I still get that argument of yours as much as I get the hybrid disc thing despite of being proven wrong on several occasions.
I don't mean to offend or start a fight, I just don't get it what a compression technology that isn't playable anyway on my DVD player should anything for me and my acceptance of HD-DVD hybrid dics.

Why can't they just sell me a 2 disc set, with the one disc being a dual layer HD-DVD disc and the other a dual layer DVD. Most of the "Special Edition" DVD's are already two discs, and only a few euros more expensive. That would be even more comfortable to the consumer, you could watch the HD-DVD disc in your HT room, while your kids watch the same film from the DVD disc at their room (I know, a silly scenario, but one that was brought up as an advantage of HD-DVD copyprotection and straming to different rooms from hard disk)

Edit: Am I talkin out of my a** here or not? I really can't tell myself because I'm just typing without thinking at all before I post here

 

[MfA]

Hmmm ok so your saying it'll be easier to make BRD hybrid than HDDVD even though the disk design is radically different?

No, Im saying it would be easier thanks to the disk design being radically different.

(You just look at the words and see a contradiction there I know, but you might want to consider for a moment ... what is easier to combine and keep seperate, water and oil or water and ice? Don't get lost in words without trying to see what's behind them.)

 

[c0_re]

No, Im saying it would be easier thanks to the disk design being radically different.

(You just look at the words and see a contradiction there I know, but you might want to consider for a moment ... what is easier to combine and keep seperate, water and oil or water and ice? Don't get lost in words without trying to see what's behind them.)

Yea I know what your saying MfA and there may just be somthing too it because there's alot I (and many other people) don't understand and no one knows really who to believe, I certainly don't believe jack about what the Blue-Ray group says. I have worked with both Sony and Microsoft on a professional basis(nothing to do with gaming or multimedia) and I"ll tell you one thing M$ was much more pleasanet and responsive to deal with. Int he end we dropped Sony's hardware and media like a bad habbit.

Just from my past experience as an engineer as well as my experience in getting products\code into production and live, the simpler solution is 99% the better solution. I could very wel be wrong in this instance but I think Microshaft drove home some pretty heavy duty points withthis announcement and atleast some of them are very valid.

 

[TekkenMaster]

2.China is backing HD-DVD, this is alot bigger than I think most poeple realize

This is one of the reason why I could see many studios might not care if it costs more to produce BR disks. DVD equipment is pretty widespread now, the presses even show up on Ebay fairly frequently and with HD-DVD just being an inexpensive expansion on existing lines having BR be rocket science might damp down the rampant copying in China for a short while.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So in summary, we're going to have 10's of millions of PS3 owners with BRD playback but no HDTV who'll buy DVD's now and wait to get BRD's for when they finally get HDTV, and 10's of millions of non-console owners who don't want an expensive HD player yet but who buy DVD+HDDVD combo discs so they can get a player (and maybe HDTV) later when they're 50 quid from a supermarket, anda good few million PS3 owners with inbuilt BRD playback who buy a DVD+HDDVD combo disk so they can play HD movies at a later date when they get an HDTV only to find their player doesn't support it, and these rival formats are both equally strong with sufficiently stubborn backing that none will die out and just like CF and SD and all that Jazz, multiformat is just something we'll have to live with for 15 years.

Doesn't really make any difference in the grand scheme of things anyway. Just a case of stocking two types of disks in the shops (at a competing price structure) instead of twice as many units of a single format. The only obvious drawback is shortages of a movie in a particular format I guess.

 

[c0_re]

Shifty if thats the case neither one will get my money and I"ll just keep downloading my content for free, I know thats shady but I"m not going to invest money in anything but a forsure thing.

 

[scooby_dooby]

I stil can't get my head round the whole hybrid thing and who'd really buy them in quantities that would be significant to the industry (not just in some consumer polls ).... but maybe it's just me.
Maybe it's just that many think now they will buy these hybrids, because they feel "safer" with that option, and feeling safe is a good feeling, better than being afraid if the investement is going to waste. That's what the HD-DVD camp are playing with, appealing to peoples need to feel safe and secure..."wouldn't it be horrible if youd end up with another Betamax in your hands", while in reality it isn't that scary at all
Doesn't matter if you lose in performance, as long as you are safe..

Since most households own 1 or 2 DVD players, it would nice if you could buy dual format discs when you purchase a NEW movie. This way you can play the movie on your HD dvd set, and also on one of your other DVD players elsewhere in the house, without having to buy 2 copies of the same disc.

So simply put the reason it's a big deal is everyone has dvd players, and they're not going to just throw them away, and no one is going to be thrilled about buying 2 copies of the same movie.

So the main market is new HD-DVD adopters (i.e. everyone for the next 5 years) to maintain BC with their existing hardware, that makes it much more feasible to purchase a HD-DVD player, because the consumer can rest assured any HD-DVD movies they buy will play on their existing dvd player(s). In addition it will be an option for people looking to futureproof their movie collection. This is critical to success IMO.

As for cost, these dual format discs could easily be priced a small amount more to offset any small increased cost in manufacturing.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Shifty if thats the case neither one will get my money and I"ll just keep downloading my content for free, I know thats shady but I"m not going to invest money in anything but a forsure thing.

At the end of the day will it matter though? If you have an HDDVD player and can buy HDDVDs, what does it matter if other people have BRD's and watch BRDs?

Actually now I think about it the problem is the movie studios. If half support one format and half the other, you'll need two players. But I can't see anything stopping these studios releasing films on both formats. Except with two formats competing prices will be squeezed as will profitability...

So the studios will decide. And they'll surely go with the most secure 'pain-in-the-arse' solution for consumers because they always do. Which surely means BRD will win!

Wait a year or two (when most people still haven't HD sets and won't care) and the studios will have decided I guess. And if everyone did that (as magazines and TV programmes seem to recommend) then the only players being sold will be PS3s, under the disguise of being a console. So really unless people en masse place their faith in HDDVD and buy players before every film company confirms material for that format, BRD is gaurenteed a substantial installed user base advantage which matters more to the movie publishers then anything else.

As I consider this format war, it seems the only way HDDVD can win out is if people are daft and commit to a format before waiting to see which format becomes the standard!

 

[scooby_dooby]

If HD-DVD can come out with cheap players, like ~$300 next year, with a decent amount of content, it will sell...there's alot of hdtv owners out there who would jump all over it, IMO the key is the hybrid discs, and affordable players

 

[c0_re]

Shifty you make a great argument but what if HDDVD players hit the market in the next 3 mothes at a reasonable price(300$ or less) people will flock to them and the available movies for christmas gifts and that'll just make things even worse.


WOW looks like scooby was reading my mind, scary

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Wouldn't it by unwise to buy a $300 HDDVD player though if in 2 years time the format dies? Plus when you get it some studios work won't be coming to the format? You won't be watching Spiderman in HD on an HDDVD for example. Unless people have enough money to buy a player with the possibility they'll have to get another player in a couple of years time, would not waiting to see which format has all the content be better?

 

[c0_re]

Shifty people like you and me aren't not your average consumer, I know alot of people with mucho expensive(5000$+) HDTV that are dieing for some on demand content(aka Hi def DVD's) and at 300$ if I need to buy a new one in a couple years it's not that big of a deal really.

 

[Black Dragon37]

Ok so we can't buy dual layer HDDVDs or BluRay discs... When the heck are these things supposed to be out? We've been talking about them for bloody ages, what's taking this long?

Both are supposed to come out in 2006.

 

[SirTendeth]

There is not going to be a 2 disk set, with one DVD the other HD format of your choice. People would sell off the other version that they don't need.

The single biggest issue that I see for Hybrid is Shelf Space.
Retailers don't want to have split inventory- of the same item.
If you go into walmart or blockbuster they still have VHS shelf space left, but it has taken years for DVD to have the greater share.

With a hybrid they buy the movie and it serves both customers.

When DVD came out one of the biggest things holding back adoption wasn't the cost of the player, it was the EASY access to whatever content was on DVD.

Hybrids make rollout much easier on the Content creator, replicator, retailer and rental company.
And this may not matter to you, but it matters to them, and they are the ones that decide what they are going to produce, and stock.

 

[expletive]

Hybrids make rollout much easier on the Content creator, replicator, retailer and rental company.

Dont forget the consumer. Being able to buy new SD movies while building an HD library for an HDTV purchase next holiday season is a big value proposition to the consumer.

Another point in this transition is with BR, you have to buy media, player, HDTV, all at once to 'adopt' the format as a consumer. With the HD-DVD hybrid disc, it makes it possible to break these pieces up into 'bite size' chunks for the consumer. IMO, this makes it a much 'safer' format in the eyes of the consumer.

J

 

[London Geezer]

Another point in this transition is with BR, you have to buy media, player, HDTV, all at once to 'adopt' the format as a consumer. With the HD-DVD hybrid disc, it makes it possible to break these pieces up into 'bite size' chunks for the consumer. IMO, this makes it a much 'safer' format in the eyes of the consumer.

J

Why? You'll need to buy media, player and HDTV anyway to enjoy HDDVD.

Besides, who said anything about "all at once"?

With Bluray, you can get a relatively cheap PS3. If you don't have a HDTV but plan to buy one in the future, you can still get Bluray movies but watch them in SD or ED depending on what TV you have. Then when you eventually get a HDTV, you'll be able to watch the movies at their full resolution. No need for useless hybrid stuff.
Then if PS3 doesn't satidfy your needs for Bluray movie watching, you'll be able to buy a stand alone player - possibly a hybrid HDDVD/Blueray one so everyone's happy...

They don't need to be done all at once any more than for HDDVD.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

When DVD came out one of the biggest things holding back adoption wasn't the cost of the player, it was the EASY access to whatever content was on DVD.

Is that so much a concern now though with internet shopping? I buy most stuff from Play.com or Amazon. I think people buy in shops if it's available but if not, you can get anything you want online. I know if I were to buy an HDDVD player and no shops stocked HDDVDs on the high street I could still buy the films from online retailers. UMDs are a good example. How many are you likely to find in an HMV or Walmart?? But you can grab all of them off Play.