"Blu-ray support a last minute switch, Microsoft says..."

[aaaaa00]

The release date of this single-sided double layer disc is 7/31/2004.

Writable BD is not the same as BDROM.

Dual layer writable BD is currently manufactured with film application. As of yet, Panasonic has not been able to get BD spin coating to work outside of a lab (but they might soon).

Film application makes the process very expensive and impractical for mass production of 50GB BD ROMs.

Writable 50GB BD (like those examples one posted) are another matter entirely because high fabrication cost is irrelevant at $50 a disc.

I can guarantee you that dual layer HD DVD ROMs are a reality, proven, and cheap.

It is quite likely that BD will not be able to launch with dual layer BD ROMs, and will have to compete against dual layer HD DVD. Of course it won't stay this way forever, but who knows, BD or HD DVD or even both formats might be irrelevant by then.

 

[Magnum PI]

Support for hybrid discs that can be read in both current DVDs and future players, was the second critical element. This would "future-proof" new releases, enabling consumers to buy DVDs that can play in today's players, while also providing high-def content for tomorrow's.

That's a joke:

When you make an HD-DVD hybrid disc, you can only store 15 GB on the HD layer.
You don't want your 2 hours movie encoded in HD on only 15 GB.

HD-DVD hybrid is a bad thing.

 

[aaaaa00]

That's a joke:

When you make an HD-DVD hybrid disc, you can only store 15 GB on the HD layer.
You don't want your 2 hours movie encoded in HD on only 15 GB.

HD-DVD hybrid is a bad thing.

No this is wrong. HD DVD hybid disc is 9GB on the DVD side, then you flip and get 30GB on the HD DVD side.

You're thinking about the single sided 15GB/5GB hybrid.

 

[Acert93]

Summary of the article. (Kind of long so I broke it down to each talking point)

1. Making legal copies of content. HD DVD allows this. BD is uncommital. Wintel considers this functionality is important for consumers.

2. Support for Hybrid discs. DVD + HD. Wintel considers this "future proofing" and aiding the transition. (i.e. You can buy a new release like "Batman Begins" and play it on your DVD player and later on a HD device.)

3. Maintaining low production costs. Wintel notes that 2 major Chinese plants are supporting HD DVD; and while many big players are supporting BD, in the DVD struggle it was the Chinese companies who lowered costs and made these units mainstream. As many as 75% of the DVD players sold came from China.

4. Mainting low disc replication costs affects the consumer price for media. As Ars and this article note, it costs about 1.7M to DVD production lines to BD, and only 150K for HD DVD; and up to 2M for each new mastering system for BD. He believes those are significant costs for a business which has 10% pargins.

5. Capacity. ""[Capacity] used to be the biggest advantage of Blu-ray, and we believed it. We thought, they'll get 50 GByte BD-ROM discs working, but it's not happening, and it's nowhere in sight. There are not even pilots. It's only in the lab that they are building these discs." With regard to demonstrated capacity, he told us, HD DVD-ROM actually leads BD-ROM by a score of 30 GByte to 25 GByte."

6. Interactivity standards. MS is very XML focused and codeveloped iHD with Disney based on XML. Supposedly iHD is more feature rich and easier to use.

It is good to get a different perspective on the debate. More complicated that "X has more size" etc. Between the above and the recent ARS article it makes the Wintel decision more understandible. Obviously the BD Association wont agree.

 

[rabidrabbit]

First, and perhaps foremost, is the ability for a consumer to make authorized copies of a legally obtained disc, in order to store the content on a hard drive and stream it to devices around the house

You need a mighty big harddrive if you are going to stream all (or even most of) your HD-DVD collectiom, plus music and photos, and the Windows Vista OS plus all the other software.
Don't see this happening anytime soon, even today with DVD's and 260Gig HD I couldn't fit quarter of my DVD collectio to my server. Sure I could buy four 260Gigs... but I really don't want to... or see the need to. If I had the need to view the discs in different rooms apart from my main HT room, I'd probably just buy additional players. Rarely do I need to view the same film in two rooms at the same time, and I really don't believe many consumers do.
So, the authorized copies point... mostly good just for making illegal copy(copies?) to your friends.

Support for hybrid discs that can be read in both current DVDs and future players, was the second critical element.

Never really got it what's really the whole point of hybrid discs.
I don't want some hybrid discs. Maybe because I'd likely to be an early adopter, so I'd only buy the non-hybrid versions anyway. Guess this is more for those who feel unsure of the formats future support, or haven't yet decided to buy a HD player for years.
Anyway, these hybrid discs are just a compromise in quality over full blown HD-DVD discs.

Maintaining low production and replication costs

If significant, that's good. Lower prices are always good. It's just that these lower production costs don't necessarily reflect into the consumer prices, just that they are more productive to the studios.

Disc storage capacity

As pointed out already in previous posts, this is basically a lie.

The final entry is interactivity standards

An optional commentary track for videos, for example, that superimposes the speaker's image on-screen as well as providing audio, is one key iHD feature that BDJ will support only as an option, maybe. "Which means nobody will use it," said Ribas.

??? what exactly does that mean ??? I really don't know much about the interactive features and what they support and what not, but isn't it up to the disc autor to decide which interactive features will be on the disc, If that "talking head commentator" was a "key Feature of HD-DVD" and an "option" on Blu-ray, does that mean that every HD-DVVD will have that "talking head commentator" or some other function using iHD, while only the Blu Ray discs that the autor cdecided to use the similar feature, will have that interactivity??

 

[c0_re]

4 critical VALID points I see made here

1. Its not realistic to think that BR disks will EVER be Hybrid capable making the switch to BRD very expensive and confusing to consumers

2.China is backing HD-DVD, this is alot bigger than I think most poeple realize

3. Costs HD-DVD disks are less complex(aka cheaper) and so are the players from what I understand,

4. The cost to upgrade the DVD presses is going to be VERY tough for manufactured to swallow when they already have such small margins.


Things poeple need to keep in mind is Who can produce the most for the less in a REAL WORLD SCENARIO
Before reading this I was leaning towrds the Blu_Ray camp but after hearing about the JVM front end for Blue-Ray and the rest of this article especially the hybrid deal I just think BRD is to far ahead of it's time and HDDVD is the best bet for High Def on DVD.

I think it's pretty funny how people will say anything, now matter how unrealistic it is to support their cause. If Sony doens't figure out to produce BR soon and cheaply and easily BR is gonna go the way of the doe doe before it even comes of age. To bad I still think Blue-Ray has the cooler name.

 

[London Geezer]

If Sony doens't figure out to produce BR soon and cheaply and easily BR is gonna go the way of the doe doe before it even comes of age.

BLASPHEMY!

It's DODO! D O D O! Some respect people!!

http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/expeditions/treasure_fossil/Treasures/Dodo/dodo.html?dinos
http://www.davidreilly.com/dodo/anatomy.html

Poor Dodo, first it gets all extinct, then people french him up! I mean, frenching a name up is almost as bad as extinction itself!

 

[c0_re]

I've reported you to the WWF and Greenpeace.

edit...LOL! Bring it on I'll take on those pantywastes over my lunch and a conf call



yea I know but I figured if I wrote do do poeple would be like, huh?

 

[London Geezer]

yea I know but I figured if I wrote do do poeple would be like, huh?

I've reported you to the WWF and Greenpeace.

 

[rabidrabbit]

I stil can't get my head round the whole hybrid thing and who'd really buy them in quantities that would be significant to the industry (not just in some consumer polls ).... but maybe it's just me.
Maybe it's just that many think now they will buy these hybrids, because they feel "safer" with that option, and feeling safe is a good feeling, better than being afraid if the investement is going to waste. That's what the HD-DVD camp are playing with, appealing to peoples need to feel safe and secure..."wouldn't it be horrible if youd end up with another Betamax in your hands", while in reality it isn't that scary at all
Doesn't matter if you lose in performance, as long as you are safe.

Plus aren't those hybrid discs more expensive to manufacture?? Kind of nullifies that one plus point if so.
Edit: I quess they still can be manufactured on pretty much the same lines, so maybe not that much more expensive to have any impact.

The other thing, I think it is safe to say PS3 will be a success, that means a Blu-Ray format capable hardware will be a succes too.
That would mean there will be more Blu-ray capable players in living rooms 2006-2007 than there will be HD-DVD players, whether a Blu-Ray disc costs some cents more to manufacture doesn't really matter any more if the installed base is larger enough.

If Sony doens't figure out to produce BR soon and cheaply and easily BR is gonna go the way of the doe doe before it even comes of age. To bad I still think Blue-Ray has the cooler name.

Well they really should soon, I mean the PS3 launch is just around the corner.
If they are going to ship games on BR on day one, their manufacturing processes should be quite mature already.
Or then again, maybe they'll ship the game on DVD's for a year or so, until they get the manufacturing cheap and reliable enough. Then it would be interesting to see if people would jump ship to HD-DVD as their movie viewing format, or patiently wait for the high def software to arrive for their already purchased Playstation3 high definition movie player.

 

[London Geezer]

One thing is for sure, whatever happens Bluray will be more successful than UMD.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Do you mean PSP is a flop? I already have bought 5 UMD's in 5 months. That's more than I've bought DVD's (Ok, I did "borrow" a pack of 10 DVD-RW's from work, but that doesn't cont)
Four of the UMD's are games, but all they are UMD's.

 

[Dave Baumann]

2.China is backing HD-DVD, this is alot bigger than I think most poeple realize

I'm of this opinion as well, which is why I linked the the article earkier. Manufacturing wise I think it foolish to understimate the significance of what China does these days - not just from the uptake in their local market, but the worldwide significance. DVD became mainstream once 50 quid players turned up in Tesco's and the like, which quicker than many may have expected; the HD format that gets down to these levels the fastest is likely to have a big leg up (although there certainly are other barriers with HD, such as set adoption as well).

I stil can't get my head round the whole hybrid thing and who'd really buy them in quantities that would be significant to the industry (not just in some consumer polls ).... but maybe it's just me.
Maybe it's just that many think now they will buy these hybrids, because they feel "safer" with that option, and feeling safe is a good feeling, better than being afraid if the investement is going to waste. That's what the HD-DVD camp are playing with, appealing to peoples need to feel safe and secure..."wouldn't it be horrible if youd end up with another Betamax in your hands", while in reality it isn't that scary at all
Doesn't matter if you lose in performance, as long as you are safe.

It seem to me you are looking at this from the perspective of already having an HD player, which IMO is the wrong way of looking at it. I can see perfect sense in having hybrid disks as a user that doesn't have an HD player or an HDTV but know that at some point in the future I will have one - I'm now far more likely to buy the disk that I can use on my current DVD player and still get the full benefits when I have HD in the future - means that I don't have to waste all that money upgrading my movie back catalogue again.

If the hardware manufacturers sucessfully pushed the movie studios now then hybrid disks could effectively become a trojan for each/either of the formats.

 

[Titanio]

1. Its not realistic to think that BR disks will EVER be Hybrid capable making the switch to BRD very expensive and confusing to consumers.

Huh? And a second "huh?" at the article/MS too. There are hybrid Bluray/DVD discs coming, and it's part of the spec aswell.

JVC was showcasing their BD/DVD hybrid media (33.5GB), which was developed to ease the transition from DVD to Blu-ray by creating a disc that will play in both BD players and DVD players. The hybrid disc is basically a single-layer BD-ROM (25GB) and a dual-layer DVD-ROM (8.5GB) in the same disc, which can be read in both players as the Blu-ray layer is transparent to the red laser used in a conventional DVD player. A JVC representative offered a live demonstration where he first put the hybrid disc in the BD player and played the video in high definition (HD), he then transferred the disc to the conventional DVD player which seamlessly played the same video in standard definition (SD). According to the JVC representative the BD/DVD hybrid will be part of the BD-ROM specification, which was also confirmed by a BDA representative at the show.

http://www.blu-ray.com/ifa2005/

Let's face it, the core reason they're not supporting Bluray is because it's Sony, and it's in PS3. That's really all they needed to make that decision.

 

[London Geezer]

Do you mean PSP is a flop? I already have bought 5 UMD's in 5 months. That's more than I've bought DVD's (Ok, I did "borrow" a pack of 10 DVD-RW's from work, but that doesn't cont)
Four of the UMD's are games, but all they are UMD's.

No, i mean that Bluray will surely be more successful than UMD. If only because PS3 will sell a lot more than PSP.
I think UMD is doing well, everything considered.

 

[Acert93]

It seem to me you are looking at this from the perspective of already having an HD player, which IMO is the wrong way of looking at it. I can see perfect sense in having hybrid disks as a user that doesn't have an HD player or an HDTV but know that at some point in the future I will have one - I'm now far more likely to buy the disk that I can use on my current DVD player and still get the full benefits when I have HD in the future - means that I don't have to waste all that money upgrading my movie back catalogue again.

If the hardware manufacturers sucessfully pushed the movie studios now then hybrid disks could effectively become a trojan for each/either of the formats.

Dead on.

For the next couple years HD players and HDTVs will still be a VERY small segment of the market. Yet catering to both markets--DVD now and HD later--in one package could significantly push sales.

On the reverse, when HD players/TVs become over 50% of the market you do NOT leave the low end consumers--who still have $$$--behind. One of the worse things you can do is fragment a market because basically every person who buys a DVD is NOT moving your platform forward. It slows adoption.

From a business stand point it is PERFECT for transition, it gives consumers more bang for the buck, and is a trojan for more early sales to push the install base forward--while NOT leaving consumers behind. Good for consumers, good for business, and ultimately gets a standard more widely adopted quicker.

I hope BD adopts hybrid DVD/BD media. This is something important to me as I have no current plans to buy a HD player for the very reasons above. Especially if a format war ensues.

 

[Titanio]

I hope BD adopts hybrid DVD/BD media. This is something important to me as I have no current plans to buy a HD player for the very reasons above. Especially if a format war ensues.

MS FUD at work If you read the whole thread you'd see there is DVD/BD hybrid media in the works, it has been publically demonstrated in fact, and it furthermore part of the spec. I think MS's characterisation is a little off. Read my post above.

 

[Acert93]

http://www.blu-ray.com/ifa2005/ Let's face it, the core reason they're not supporting Bluray is because it's Sony, and it's in PS3. That's really all they needed to make that decision.

Lets face it, you are white washing the points MS and Intel gave.

Last time I checked immediate viability (one of their key points on where technology is today), cheap production of players and media, consumer features like legal repoduction, etc... were all valid points. Heck, the fact the BDA rejected iHD for a Java based format is much more relevant than the whole PS3/Xbox issue.

I think you are spending too much time on the console if you think the core reason is the PS3 It obviously is a factor in the grand scheme of things (for MS at least), but I think objectively their points are sound from certain business models. Surely the Ars article covers MANY different points from a media companies position that have absolutely NOTHING to do with Sony.

 

[Titanio]

Lets face it, you are white washing the points MS and Intel gave.

Last time I checked immediate viability (one of their key points on where technology is today), cheap production of players and media, consumer features like legal repoduction, etc... were all valid points.

I was picking them up on one point, I didn't comment on these. A point that was being propogated through the thread, and on which a high importance was being placed, despite people pointing out that it wasn't true.

 

[MfA]

No this is wrong. HD DVD hybid disc is 9GB on the DVD side, then you flip and get 30GB on the HD DVD side.

You're thinking about the single sided 15GB/5GB hybrid.

That's not very elegant ... and it's hardly going to be any more difficult with BR discs, which use less of the depth of the disc in the first place.

BTW will all the actual HD-DVD players being launched actually have that iHD crap?