Bizarre's Technical Director Talks about Next Gen Consoles

This is actually quite unbiased even though it is coming from Bizarre, not the most technical read but he does give some nice nuggets about some of the cool features of the systems/GPU's. Interesting to hear a developer speak about it.

http://www.bizarreonline.net/index.php?action=fullnews&showcomments=1&id=37

"On the CPU side, once again both machines offer a common challenge. Moore's law is over - the limits of silicon are reached. The speed of light has even become a consideration in chip design with the physical distances on the die being a limiting factor!

....

This forces a rethink in programming practices and how game engines are put together. Expect to see a big jump between successive generations of games on both machines. From the perspective of a programmer working on a title, this is the biggest change. It should mean one can separate out a fixed, predictable amount of processing from the chunk taken to manage the visuals; again helping to deepen the experience. Although the raw 'GFLOPS' provided by the CPU is only 10% of the overall figure, it's critical to utilize for the depth of the gaming experience."



"The approach offered to CPU side multiprocessing is the biggest difference between them. Microsoft's machine on paper promises to be the more developer friendly with 3 identical custom PowerPC cores, 2 hyper threads each. One can write common code then decide at will how to balance the program across them. Hyper threading creates some interesting back doors with 2 tasks sharing the same cache.

In practice, both for optimization and to avoid hard-to-track, production-schedule-stretching bugs, the best practices mean the more limited the 'background-tasks' are, the better, which takes forethought in engine design. Microsoft's customized PowerPC is still reliant on specific coding to maximize use of its truly powerful vector processing instructions... although it's worth pointing out it has the fullest featured SIMD unit I've yet seen!

Sony's contrasting approach has been to take this observation and design a totally new processing architecture around this. Some talk about it being like the "RISC revolution all over again". On paper this will be harder to deal with as you're using non-standard tools. But given the issues above, the architecture has a certain elegance. An extremely exciting development in the PC space that I'll be watching closely is the Agiea physics board, designed explicitly for the sort of 'spatial' processing seen in games - collision detection and physics. This operates very similarly to the Cell, surely a vote of confidence for the concept. "
 
Just wondering about MS floating point rating for it's CPU. I know dual threading does not mean two instructions being executed each cycle, but means fast context switches due to dual sets of registers, thus helping to lessen register load/stores.

If three VMX units, and I am assuming a MAC (multiply-accumulate) per cycle, that should give 3 x 4 (32-bit) input multiplies, with 3 adds per cycle. Or able to process 128-bits of information per CPU, with an additional three adds per cycle.

So 12 multiplies, and 3 adds, is 15 floating point instructions per cycle times 3.2 GHz, should give us 48 GFLOPS. So how does MS come up with a floating point rating two times higher? Is it because of dual threading, but I thought dual threading does not mean dual execution units?
 
Not much new information that's not already known. It sounds like their just as much in the dark about PS3 as the rest of us with no first hand experience.
 
8 flops for a Mad *3 --- Vector unit
+ 2 flops for a scalar MAD *2 *3 --- Scalar FPU

* clock speed

= about 115 MFlops
 
Thanks for the reply.

> "8 flops for a Mad *3"

I thought if four 32-bit values MUL with four other 32-bit values, that makes 4 floating point operations, and then you have a backend ADD on the two remaining values. That's five FLOP's/cycle (per VMX unit), so how do you come up with eight?

> "+ 2 flops for a scalar MAD *2 *3 --- Scalar FPU"

Can it load/store values each cycle in the scaler FPU, if the VMX units are using the pipeline, or is the VMX units on a different pipeline than the scaler FPU?
 
Edge said:
Thanks for the reply.

> "8 flops for a Mad *3"

I thought if four 32-bit values MUL with four other 32-bit values, that makes 4 floating point operations, and then you have a backend ADD on the two remaining values. That's five FLOP's/cycle (per VMX unit), so how do you come up with eight?

> "+ 2 flops for a scalar MAD *2 *3 --- Scalar FPU"

Can it load/store values each cycle in the scaler FPU, if the VMX units are using the pipeline, or is the VMX units on a different pipeline than the scaler FPU?


A vec4 mad is 8 flops -- 4 multiplies and 4 adds

A1*B1+C1
A2*B2+C2
A3*B3+C3
A4*B4+C4

As for the second part I'm assuming so I haven't honestly benchmarked it in that much detail. The Vector unit is definitely distinct from the scalar FPU, but I don't know about issue contentions.

It would be some pretty heavilly optimised code that managed to use both the Vector and scalar FPU's at 100% efficiency.
 
On the MAD explaination, thanks for that!

> "but I don't know about issue contentions. "

That would be good to know. It's my understanding that if the VMX units are being used, the integer processor has to handle the load/stores, so wondering if the scaler FPU gets effected.

I guess managing effective use of both VMX and scaler FPU would be difficult.
 
although it's worth pointing out it has the fullest featured SIMD unit I've yet seen!
He needs to try portable consoles sometime, it might broaden his horizons on what "fully featured SIMD unit" really means :p

ERP said:
8 flops for a Mad *3 --- Vector unit + 2 flops for a scalar MAD *2 *3 --- Scalar FPU
And since when does a Scalar mad equal 2*2 flops? ;)
You're either talking about 2-way SIMD like Gekko's, or a dual issue scalar FPU - and the latter really doesn't make any sense in a dual issue CPU (or rather, the real peak flops would no longer add up).

And the first case sounds like not much else then a tool to increase paper spec (yes I'm aware IBM did the same math for Cell's PPE).
 
For some reason I expected more people to comment of this article. :cry: Why do the other threads get 5 pages worth of info but this one doesn't. We have a dev here (i.e. DeanoC) that explains things on the PS3 and his game HS, but this dev has given us a long article about the next-gen systems that nobody has done to date.

It's so unbiased to I wanted to slap myself because I thought I was dreaming. We could strip about 25 different things from that article and talk about each one and give it its own page.

I thought we would have at least 3 pages by now. What's up guys? I would hate to think that the non-biasness (if thats a word) is keeping you guys from posting more. :)
 
Very interesting read about the Xenos!

It's so unbiased to I wanted to slap myself because I thought I was dreaming.

But unbiased in what :?: He basically says everything is great for the xbox360 and adds that everything about the PS3 is probably great too.. (although he admits he knows next to nothing about the cell) He also doesn't actively compare both systems. Nevertheless it's a interesting read :!:
 
3roxor said:
Very interesting read about the Xenos!

It's so unbiased to I wanted to slap myself because I thought I was dreaming.

But unbiased in what :?: He basically says everything is great for the xbox360 and adds that everything about the PS3 is probably great too.. (although he admits he knows next to nothing about the cell) He also doesn't actively compare both systems. Nevertheless it's a interesting read :!:

Its unbiased because 1) speculation is limited to the facts and 2) that speculation did not lead him to negative statements about the PS3.
 
blakjedi said:
that speculation did not lead him to negative statements about the PS3.

Sorta OT, and not that it necessarily relates here, but bias is not limited to being negative ;)

But I find "positive" bias far more palletable :)
 
It was certainly biased. But at least he tried to stick to the facts.

Almost everything said about Xbox 360 was positive and everything about PS3 was met with skepticism since we dont have the full picture yet.
 
The other threshold being crossed is the dawn of the 'near-polygon per pixel era'

The 360 GPU can dynamically target its power at pixels or vertices at will - allowing it to 'work smarter not harder'.

I found this part interesting. Am I reading it wrong or is what he's saying going against what people here have been saying about shader balance being in favor of pixels. Might this change in next gen games?

If so then the unified shader aproach may turn out for the best.
 
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