ATi responses challenge of NV30 with R350

[Nebuchadnezzar]

No, they started R400 design in Dec. 2001. If they would release it in Q2-Q3 2002 then it would have olny 12-14 months for it to design, come on, R300, taked 1.5 years olny design without tape-out's, etc.[/b]

 

[FUDie]

As long as this thing has turned into a topic about drivers, and the fact that I haven't really had too much time of late to post...

I really do believe that the 9700, though (once again) a very good piece of hardware, is (ahem...once again) really tarnished by the drivers. I mean, look...I fully realize you cannot go to a forum like Rage3D and expect to find no issues...this is what the forum is designed for. Or the fact that one doesn't necessarily generalize about the state of a product based on what is seen @ forums...

Have you used the card? I have. I can say I have encountered no BSODs. No installation problems. No major problem with any game, in fact, aside from some Z issues in Morrowind.

1. Power related: This isn't one of these deals that you can point the finger directly @ ATI...BUT, it's really starting to look like the issues that impact some folks could be directly related to the massive power requirements...which is indirectly ATI's fault (if you're interested in placing blame).

Exactly what does this have to do with drivers?

2. General driver bugs: It seems to be better than the 8500...But in many respects, still much worse than nVidia. There will be those that will debate this issue until their blue in the face...about how ATI has come a long way, and there's a very slim difference between the 2 camps...I don't believe that at all. I still think nVidia has a very massive lead on ATI, when it comes to driver/software developers.

It's funny. People complain about many issues ("No textures in SoF2 when I set texture quality to very high!"), but then someone points out that the problem is their's ("Read Raven's website. Your install is bad. Try reinstalling the game." "Thanks! That fixed it!"). That's why you see many people having problems that other people can't reproduce.

That's just my opinion on the matter. On the whole, I think ATI is slowly clawing its way back, as far as perceptions go...but they have a ways to go.

Sure, as long as people like Derek keep going around and making up garbage, people will have a negative opinion. I was happy with my 8500. There was one bug in DAoC I encountered, but it was only in the menus and didn't affect gameplay at all. It was fixed in a later driver release. I guess that means ATi has lousy drivers, eh? If so, then please tell me why it took nvidia MONTHS to fix the serious performance problems with Incoming Forces? The problem existed on the 29.42 and 30.xx drivers (all of them as far as I know). Does this mean nvidia has crappy drivers? Well, I guess if Incoming Forces is your favorite game, you'd be disappointed. You can base your opinions on your experiences, but you shouldn't let other people's problems prevent you from enjoying a product. Suppose you never played Incoming Forces? Would you give a damn that it didn't run well on a GeForce 4? Probably not.

Oh, I didn't buy the 8500 when it was released: I wanted the whole Quake/Quack thing to get sorted out. Once it was resolved to my satisfaction (bug fixed with no loss of performance), I picked the card up and enjoyed using it. Yes, it pays to do research, but holding a childish grudge over a driver bug (Quake/Quack or splash screens) is silly.

 

[jb]

I really do believe that the 9700, though (once again) a very good piece of hardware, is (ahem...once again) really tarnished by the drivers.

No offense good sir but there are a large number of people here that dont really have issues realated to drivers. Had you actually owned the card you might now this.

2. General driver bugs: It seems to be better than the 8500...But in many respects, still much worse than nVidia. There will be those that will debate this issue until their blue in the face...about how ATI has come a long way, and there's a very slim difference between the 2 camps...I don't believe that at all. I still think nVidia has a very massive lead on ATI, when it comes to driver/software developers.

This is something that while I dont forgive ATI I also understand that they are more likely to have driver bugs as the developers mainly target nV boards to do their development. A lot of times bugs are cought in the developement process and are fixed or the developers use a work around. Do you really think these developers have the time and reasources to run their code on every possible combination of hardware? So yes whould would you not expect a card to have the potenial for more bugs knowing that developers used a different card and probably did not have sufficent time to fully test on all hardware?

Let me give you some perspective on the topic of drivers. I know a lot of people laughed @ Derek when he originally stated that ATI had crappy drivers, and listed Matrox as one of the best (OK, there really are only 3 players left)...

And as we have pointed out a lot of people here dont have bugs. Derek is in a differnt class. Being a developer he is going to see a lot more "crap" then we are. So yes I can see how he says that. And I believe him. However for end users I only have one or two minor issues on the games I play. Thats not crappy IMHO.

 

[T2k]

No, they started R400 design in Dec. 2001. If they would release it in Q2-Q3 2002 then it would have olny 12-14 months for it to design, come on, R300, taked 1.5 years olny design without tape-out's, etc.[/b]

Excuse me? (Do you read what you type? Or did you read mine? )

I wrote R400 should be announced before Q3 2003 - allowing 18-19 months from design to ramp out.

I think you missed something...

 

[antlers]

While the 9700 shipping drivers has some problems (many fixed in more recent releases) I don't think they are that different from the problems that appeared when other new architectures appeared. The Voodoo 3 had problems in some games with early drivers, same with the TNT, the GeForce (remember the GeForce FAQ page?), and the GeForce 3.

Radeon 9700 was also released along with a new AGP spec, and there were issues with some motherboards that needed to be shaken out. This was not a 9700-specific problem, other 8x videocards had the same issue, and was usually fixed with an updated motherboard BIOS.

And the 9700's power problems are nothing compared to the problems with the original GeForce.

So, while ATI might have wished the 9700 launch to have been smoother (to dispel the reputation for troublesome drivers from previous products) its launch was not bad compared to other new architecture launches from other companies.

 

[Grall]

FUDie:

"At least Hellbinder has friends, I doubt you have any."

Your intentions of starting and continuing a flamewar with Derek is not appreciated here. Avoid polluting our fine forum any further with your abusive and agressive posts, I suggest you take your scummy business elsewhere. Thank you.


*G*

 

[Althornin]

FUDie:

"At least Hellbinder has friends, I doubt you have any."

Your intentions of starting and continuing a flamewar with Derek is not appreciated here. Avoid polluting our fine forum any further with your abusive and agressive posts, I suggest you take your scummy business elsewhere. Thank you.


*G*

woah there buddy.
FUDie certainly shouldnt have responded that way, but maybe you'd better be fair, eh?
DS needs to do the same.

 

[LeStoffer]

I really believe that they would have been better served to get their drivers in a more polished state, rather than release the thing as early as they did. Hell, they knew NV30 was going to REALLY be late, so any additional time they didn't count on could now be better put to use on improving their drivers.

I think you're reading to much into the trouble some people have on some games.

I had to RMA my first R9700 because of a Cold Boot Hell problem but with the replacement I have to say that I'm very impressed by both the performance and image quality (FSAA+AF). So I would absolutely reject the idea that ATI should have released this beauty later on!

Anyway, ATI have been working on the drivers with working silicon since at least May (Doom III demo) so I don't think one more month would have made a massive difference...

 

[LeStoffer]

.... Oh and one more thing: It seems that ATI is trying to be quite responsive when people - Real World Consumers (tm) that is - report a bug. Sometimes it really does make a difference when people show that they are at least trying hard to improve.

By now I have the confidence that I wont regret buying this card because of the ATI-drivers-have-always-sucked-and-thus-they-will-always-suck. I have taken a careful note of what Derek Smart have said, but it doesn't give me sleepless nights.

 

[Doomtrooper]

I think the ATI driver deal has been beaten to Death, we know they are working on improving it...end the endless pot shots please.
As still a 8500 owner I have had no issues with my card, never did.. and the main problem lies between the keyboard and the chair.

As a future 9700 owner I am concerned as any to get the driver bugs dealth with, so if its a legit issue submit a problem report...

I can't wait too see the Nv30 launch though, as if anyone doesn't think there is going to be driver issues with that card on its launch needs their head examined.

 

[BoddoZerg]

Does anyone ever wonder why it is that, when ATi drivers have a feature broken here and there, they are "broken", and when they use Quake/Quack they are "cheating", but when nVidia drivers won't let you turn off Vsync, their default DirectX texture filtering is point sampling (!), and a new release increases 3dmark scores 25% while massively DEcreasing framerates in most actual games (Including UT2003!) they are the gold standard for driver quality?

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

No, they started R400 design in Dec. 2001. If they would release it in Q2-Q3 2002 then it would have olny 12-14 months for it to design, come on, R300, taked 1.5 years olny design without tape-out's, etc.[/b]

Excuse me? (Do you read what you type? Or did you read mine? )

I wrote R400 should be announced before Q3 2003 -allowing 18-19 months from design to ramp out.

I think you missed something...

Ermm what u mean???

1) It should olny be announced in Q3 and will take 3-5 months untill it's available?

2)

allowing 18-19 months from design to ramp out.

Look again, you see that ... WITHOUT TAPE-OUT'S ETC. or had i to bold it in the original post that you can see it?

 

[T2k]

No, they started R400 design in Dec. 2001. If they would release it in Q2-Q3 2002 then it would have olny 12-14 months for it to design, come on, R300, taked 1.5 years olny design without tape-out's, etc.[/b]

Excuse me? (Do you read what you type? Or did you read mine? )

I wrote R400 should be announced before Q3 2003 -allowing 18-19 months from design to ramp out.

I think you missed something...

Ermm what u mean???

1) It should olny be announced in Q3 and will take 3-5 months untill it's available?

2)

allowing 18-19 months from design to ramp out.

Look again, you see that ... WITHOUT TAPE-OUT'S ETC. or had i to bold it in the original post that you can see it?

Wrong, mate.

AFAIK Orton said somewhere R300 took 18 months completely - so, my timeframe speculation is OK, isn't it?

EDIT: I'm trying to find the link, of course.

 

[Sabastian]

Does anyone ever wonder why it is that, when ATi drivers have a feature broken here and there, they are "broken", and when they use Quake/Quack they are "cheating", but when nVidia drivers won't let you turn off Vsync, their default DirectX texture filtering is point sampling (!), and a new release increases 3dmark scores 25% while massively DEcreasing framerates in most actual games (Including UT2003!) they are the gold standard for driver quality?

Yeah I am wondering where nvidia gets the "flawless driver" record myself. You should have seen all the driver bugs my GF256DDR had and I am not talking about one or two minor problems. These issues went on for nearly 6 months... Anyhow what you are refering to is called "nvidiot think".

 

[Grall]

The 'who has the best/crappiest drivers' debate has been going on WAY too long.

It doesn't help that certain people (mis)quote people like John Carmack saying Nvidia drivers are his gold standard. Well, he meant it from a compliance point of view, not stability. Hell, he even said right in that very .plan post he tracked stability separately from compatibility...

ATI does seem to have cleaned up its act. So they're STILL buggy, but the difference is it isn't the USER noticing it so much anymore, it's the devs. Even Derek has to admit that's at least SOME kind of success!

Nview is horribly unstable on my GF3 which is funny since it doesn't even support most of the important functions of Nview... I certainly don't hold Nvidia as any kind of saint. On the other hand, I had almost completely good experiences with ATI on my old box and the Rage128 Pro card it is equipped with (on a K6-3/VIA MVP3 system even). I know others don't agree, which just goes to show that the PC as it is is just a horrible stinking mess. What works for one person probably won't for another, and it is ALWAYS the people it doesn't work for who makes the most noise, thus perpetuating the impression ATI drivers suck eternally, etc.

Better to just relax instead.


*G*

 

[SirPauly]

In their case, they were lucky, the 8xxx stuck - but thats no thanks to the driver developers because almost 99% of the reviews said the same thing Great card. Piss Poor drivers - when will they learn?

Fine, and the major basis of your point here on ATI's piss-poor drivers is based on your first-hand view and what reviews have offered on the 8500 in the past. Now, you included 99 percent of the reviews on the 8500 to help cement your point here and very valid, imho.

I didn't read many if any reviews on the 9700 that mentioned piss-poor drivers and in many cases, well ATI's drivers have come a long way and in some cases compare them to nVidia's. These are their initial findings, imho, and if I recall Dr. Smart offered some initial findings on the 9700 by basically offering I haven't found one problem with the card. Note I said initial findings and please correct me if I am wrong.

So, all we really have is Dr. Smart still offering his piss-poor view about ATI's drivers vocally and he can't cement his valid opinion by using 99 percent of the sites reviewing the 9700 like he offered on the 8500.

I agree drivers need to improve and doubt I will ever see/enjoy 'THE PERFECT' set but I am of the opinion( not much of one but it's mine) that ATI's drivers are improving and 99 percent of the sites seem to agree with this and using words like piss-poor is just too strong to use now, imho.

 

[jjayb]

Typedef, apparently you think the 9700 has a lot of bugs based on other peoples perceptions. Until you actually use the card, you are guessing at best. Have you noticed that none of the reviewers have had problems with their drivers? Most of the users here haven't either. I wonder why? Maybe because they know how to properly install a new card? I've been using my card for 2 weeks now with no bsod's. Only problem I've run into so far is with 3dmark2001. I've played well over a dozen different games on this card without a problem. One of my buddies picked one up. Pulled out his gforce and plopped in the 9700. He has had problems. I wonder why? Due to buggy drivers? I think not. He hasn't so much as even bothered to format or even clean up his registry one bit. I think that is where the problem lies with a lot of folks having problems. I know when I bought my first ati card. The original radeon. I just removed my voodoo3, installed my radeon. I would have various problems. Lock-ups, being thrown back to the desktop, you name it. Once I broke down and did a format, I never had a problem again. Even though you personally haven't had a problems with your matrox, there are plenty of people who have. Is that the fault of the drivers? Probably not. Again, you haven't had a problem because you know what you are doing. I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem with the 9700 drivers either. I've not used the pahrelia drivers so I am in no position to talk about their driver quality. I think the same applies to you. Until you've actually used the card, I think you will never really know the state of the drivers.

 

[Typedef Enum]

I'll tell you why reviewers (by and large) don't notice these things...

1. Their reviews pretty much suck ass

2. They don't spend enough time with the things to even qualify as having taken the thing "for a spin."

3. They're in a rush to get the thing out the door...

4. They focus on such a limited number of titles to begin with...it's just impossible to even begin putting the cards through the paces.

5. I firmly believe that many of the hardware review sites, as far as the reviewers are concerned, don't play games. I'll say that right here and now, and I bet you that this is a very true statement...of course, I cannot back it up for shit...but I'm very confident of this fact.

6. See #1...Most reviews plain suck ass.

 

[FUDie]

FUDie:

"At least Hellbinder has friends, I doubt you have any."

Your intentions of starting and continuing a flamewar with Derek is not appreciated here. Avoid polluting our fine forum any further with your abusive and agressive posts, I suggest you take your scummy business elsewhere. Thank you.

Oh I see. It's OK for Derek to post such garbage, but I'm not allowed to? Do you have to show your No-Name Game Developers' Guild membership card before you're allowed to post?

Derek is the one bringing the flamewar here. If you can't see that, then maybe you should re-read is posts. In fact, the post you replied to was mostly a parody of his post. If you don't like mine, then why tolerate his?

Here, let me quote a few Derekisms just for fun:

No, I'm just not as stupid as some [you?]

The problem is quite simply, with your (a) math (b) lack of FACTUAL data - no, pulling numbers (95%) out of your thin air, doesn't count as being factual.

followed by

Speed is one thing. Compatibility is quite another. Whats the fucking point of touting/selling a fast card, if the competion has an almost as fast card (Ti4600) but with approx 98% more stability?!?!

Yes fool, post something worthy of my attention, and I'll reply to it. Until then, STFU and quit drawing attention to yourself.

Oh please. Spare me this same ol' regurgigated sanctimous fanboi-laden bullshit. Make excuses for your fanATIc bretheren all you want. Thats not going to do ANY good because I stand firm on my FACTUAL assertions. So, you ladies can carry on making as much noise as you bloody well want. It just doesn't change a thing.

Please shut up, shut up, shut up. Just SHUT UP!!

It is CLEAR that you have either (a) NOT read my posts or (b) you HAVE read them, but in keeping with the standard fanATIcal response, choose to discard and ignore them. And the post the usual fanATIcal NONSENSE. Thats a great club you ladies have going there. Too bad you are, well, NO MATCH for me.

Rubbish. They are REQUIRED to notify us. They have time to pimp all the useless rubbish in the cards, but its too much trouble to notify us about an ARCHITECTURAL change? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?

Whats this? Just because I have strong opinions that I am WILLING to debate, you fanATIcs want me banned?

Well thats just great! So, while you're at it, why not wear a frock, grab a collar and start preaching this to anyone who would listen. The majority of the fanATIcs are hive-minded buffoons who know nothing about gaming, let alone game development.

Anyway, I'm not in the mood to get into a pissing match with anyone - especially ladies who have little or no experience with 3D hardware nor software development - most especially DX.

Fine. Goodbye then. Cry baby

So, I DON'T give a flying FUCK who he is

Why, you think I'm scared of whining fanbois? You're kidding me, right?

I only leave when (a) trolls start posting nonsensical rubbish which NO basis in reality and/or facts (b) people start making personal attacks.

So, if trolls can post all the crap they want, why can't I leave when I want?

You must be one of very few delusional folks who underestimate my industry reach, history and power.

Jesus H. Christ, how'd you get your job? Are their any vacancies? I know a real tool who's looking for a job. He'd fit right in.

Of course, there's my personal favorite:

Derek Smart, Ph.D.

 

[Typedef Enum]

There are 2 things that nVidia totally sucks at, with respect to driver quality...

1. nView
2. Personal Cinema

- nView is a very buggy piece of software, I'm sorry to say. If multi-monitor is your #1 thing, then go Matrox or ATI...

- The WDM driver for the PC is _extremely_ buggy...and I'm being kind. There were times when I would fire the OS up...and all of a sudden, I would get an audio stream coming from the cable TV! Or, I would exit watching a little TV, and the audio would persist...and would continue to do so until I rebooted the machine...

Furthermore, I experienced all sorts of nasty things with that driver...from an overall inability to install drivers properly, to BSOD's...

Without a doubt, this is the most immature aspect of nVidia's drivers. Now, if you're strictly talking about their 3D drivers...that's a different ball of wax.

But like I said...I can backup what Derek had to say about Matrox...I've had every Radeon with the exception of the 9700...obviously, everything nVidia since the beginning...and now this Matrox board...and to a man, I would tell you that Matrox's drivers are as solid as you're going to find. Sure, there are some bugs (duh!)...