ATi is ch**t**g in Filtering

[Evildeus]

"We don't give money to developers [for TWIMTBP]" - Brian Burke, September 2003.


Uttar

but publisher ?

That has always been an issue with me. If you give more money to publisher, of course it will make more money to developpers by inderect means. Sorry for OT.

Now, is brilinear noticeably reduce the quality when playing? It seems that the answer is yes, so it's not a "good" optimisation, at least if the full tri is not enable.

I don't understand with these powerful cards, why are card makers doing those little tricks/optimisation. I suppose it's for the low/mid-range, but at least give an option to enable full quality.

 

[GrapeApe]

We'll find out more soon, I ain't in a rush and I still can't figure out what's already known....I'll catch up sooner or later.

Exactly. Doesn't look good at first blush, but we'll see what's to be said tomorrow.

I wouldn't mind so much if it were an option. The annoying thing is the idea that it's not something that can be disabled easily. There were issues with UT2K3, but at least you could still force your choice with a UT2003.ini edit.

I'd also prefer that both ATI and nV look towards improving IQ with the power these cards have at their disposal, instead of reducing the IQ to reach seemingly impossible numbers, when even unadulterated they were impressive.

Well just a few more hours and we should have something a little more concrete from the participants.

 

[bkswaney]

This is quite fishy. After a year of very good behaviour from ATi compared to nVidia, I wouldn't have expected them to pull this stunt if it is true. Finally nVidia gave users a choice between real trilinear and brilinear, and now ATi pulls a NV3x.

I know. But you never know what a company will do
to try and make there product look better.
Shame on you ATI.

I'm just glad nvidia seems to have learned from there past mistakes.
The NV40 looks to give us what we ask for.
Top notch performance and top IQ to boot.
Nvidia has the right idea now to just give us the power to lower
IQ for better performance.
I'm thinking I'm going with the 6800GT.
NV nor ATI is getting me off 5 bills this go around.
I'm going for bang for the buck.

 

[991060]

Guys, have we reached a conclusion yet?
1. Does it affect all games?
2. Does it affect both DX and OGL?
3. Does brilinear introduce artifacts in moving situation?
4. Is it this brilinear thing gives R420 better position in the test, especially when AF is enabled?
5. What's ATi's response? (personally most interested)

 

[hovz]

This is quite fishy. After a year of very good behaviour from ATi compared to nVidia, I wouldn't have expected them to pull this stunt if it is true. Finally nVidia gave users a choice between real trilinear and brilinear, and now ATi pulls a NV3x.

I know. But you never know what a company will do
to try and make there product look better.
Shame on you ATI.

I'm just glad nvidia seems to have learned from there past mistakes.
The NV40 looks to give us what we ask for.
Top notch performance and top IQ to boot.
Nvidia has the right idea now to just give us the power to lower
IQ for better performance.
I'm thinking I'm going with the 6800GT.
NV nor ATI is getting me off 5 bills this go around.
I'm going for bang for the buck.

no not really

 

[Althornin]

Damn you! I hadn't even thought about those lines for at least the past 6 months, I guess I got used to them, but now I'll probably see them for the next month, lol. Not that they really ever bothered me too much, only really visible for me with light/white backgrounds.

OMG, I just picked up two trinitrons a couple of months ago and have been totally enamored of 'em and NEVER noticed them grey lines or even knew about what you were talking about until I read it and really looked...

Heh, i have one at work. Every once in a while, i "notice" the lines again, and it bothers me for a couple days...sorry

 

[Kombatant]

This "real life" thing caught up with me as well this weekend as well; I saw the relevant thread in the beginning on Rage3D, and now I come to see this I'll give you one thing; you can never say that this industry has a "quiet period"

Let's see what ATI has to say about this... oh and guys? Stop calling these things "optimizations"; when you optimize you make stuff go faster without changing the output. Change the output and you no longer have an optimization. At least according to me and to the dictionary's definition of the word.

 

[Rugor]

I'm curious to see what they say too.

How they answer it will tell us as much about what they're doing as our comparisons.

 

[croc_mak]

This "real life" thing caught up with me as well this weekend as well; I saw the relevant thread in the beginning on Rage3D, and now I come to see this I'll give you one thing; you can never say that this industry has a "quiet period"

Let's see what ATI has to say about this... oh and guys? Stop calling these things "optimizations"; when you optimize you make stuff go faster without changing the output. Change the output and you no longer have an optimization. At least according to me and to the dictionary's definition of the word.

Has anyone concluded that IQ is lower? Colored mipmaps causing lower perf or slightly different lod calc is nothing conclusive...There seems to be outright assumption that this by itself is 'cheating'...which is totally not correct in my opinion. There are plenty of good reasons and precedence for this

As someone requested before - hope dave stops this non-sensical thread...The signal-to-noise ratio dipped to zero level on this thread - very hard to decipher who is posting data based on their first hand IQ experience v/s not

 

[Kombatant]

Has anyone concluded that IQ is lower? Colored mipmaps causing lower perf or slightly different lod calc is nothing conclusive...There seems to be outright assumption that this by itself is 'cheating'...which is totally not correct in my opinion. There are plenty of good reasons and precedence for this

My "optimization" reference was mostly general, and not particular to this very situation.

 

[L233]

Has anyone concluded that IQ is lower? Colored mipmaps causing lower perf or slightly different lod calc is nothing conclusive...There seems to be outright assumption that this by itself is 'cheating'...which is totally not correct in my opinion. There are plenty of good reasons and precedence for this

Based on the computerbase.de benchmarks, we're talking about a performance degration of 20% and the X800 seems to do full trilinear when coloured mip maps are present.

Whether someone personally perceives IQ to be noticeably lower or not is largely inconsequential since most comparisons to the GF6800U have been done with brilinear disabled on the GF6800U.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Whether someone personally perceives IQ to be noticeably lower or not is largely inconsequential since most comparisons to the GF6800U have been done with brilinear disabled on the GF6800U.

Well if you look earlier in this thread, Lars from THG states that when color mip maps are used performance drops in UT2004 on the 6800U also.

 

[L233]

Whether someone personally perceives IQ to be noticeably lower or not is largely inconsequential since most comparisons to the GF6800U have been done with brilinear disabled on the GF6800U.

Well if you look earlier in this thread, Lars from THG states that when color mip maps are used performance drops in UT2004 on the 6800U also.

Yep, but nowhere near 20%... and that's the point exactly.

 

[DSC]

How does one actually measure IQ differences between Ati's "brillinear" and trilinear because you can only disable brillinear when using colored mipmaps?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Sorry I have to ask.

Is there any picture quality difference when running Trilinear vs Bilinear(show some pics maybe)?
Isn't Trilinear supposed to be better than Bilinear?
Isn't Trilinear supposed to be a performance hit because it shows better picture quality?
Exactually how do Bilinear and Trilinear work?

Thanks for the answers
US <-- One confused consumer

 

[PatrickL]

I don't know what is going on but i would like to hear ATI explanation before judging as i have hard time to think they were dumb enough to cheat as they perfectly know what would be the cost.

I am also not very comfortable with that article during a weekend when they say they will send a pdf and ask to ATI later. I can understand if you ask, wait 24 h for an answer then publish whatever the answer is. But publishing before asking like if the website is unable to make mistakes sound not totally right.

Well i bet we will have more news before this evening.

 

[Dave Baumann]

As someone requested before - hope dave stops this non-sensical thread...The signal-to-noise ratio dipped to zero level on this thread - very hard to decipher who is posting data based on their first hand IQ experience v/s not

Given that whatever is evident here has been consistent since 9600 was released I would have expected some of the numerous 9600 owners to have complained in the past year if there was some appreciable IQ lowering, however I don't think I've heard it mentioned yet. I'll have to see if I can pull out the old UT2003 maps where its quite evident on the FX hardware.

What I've not yet heard an explaination of, either, is why the Cat3.4 drivers clearly do different things looking at the difference shots between the full texture slider position and the lower slider position and this is reflected in the coloured mip shots - it strikes me based on this that coloured mips are not being "detected".

 

[Evildeus]

Given that whatever is evident here has been consistent since 9600 was released I would have expected some of the numerous 9600 owners to have complained in the past year if there was some appreciable IQ lowering, however I don't think I've heard it mentioned yet. I'll have to see if I can pull out the old UT2003 maps where its quite evident on the FX hardware.

Isn't that a non objective? If you don't have full tri in front of you, you can't compare. If you don't know, how can you complain?

Now, do you, DB, see the difference? If yes, that's relevant.

 

[L233]

Given that whatever is evident here has been consistent since 9600 was released [...]

The 9800XT does not display this behaviour, as the computerbase benchmarks clearly show.

 

[tEd]

Given that whatever is evident here has been consistent since 9600 was released [...]

The 9800XT does not display this behaviour, as the computerbase benchmarks clearly show.

r3x0 can't do brilinear

@DaveBaumann could you please check your PM