AOD vs Blu-ray revisited...

I guess this is still the thread to put this link. An avenue of support I wouldn't have expected to see:

Dell (DELL: Research, Estimates) and H-P (HPQ: Research, Estimates), the world's largest personal computer makers, said they would support the so-called Blu-ray DVD technology, which allows for recording of up to four hours of high-definition television on a single disc.

"H-P believes Blu-ray Disc is the most consumer-friendly technology choice for the next generation of removable storage," John Romano, senior vice president at H-P, said in a statement.

Gerry Smith, vice president of peripheral development and procurement at Dell, said the technology was an obvious choice given the additional storage capacity offered and the broad support from consumer electronics and PC manufacturers and large entertainment companies.

Blu-ray is competing with another new blue laser-based DVD technology from Japan's Toshiba and NEC.

Blue lasers have a shorter wavelength than the current red lasers, which allows for a thinner light beam which can read and write smaller bits of information on a disc.

Among the 10 companies promoting Blu-Ray are Hitachi LG Electronics, Philips Electronics, Sony and Thomson.

Although the support of the two main PC makers is a shot in the arm of the Blu-ray group, the rival technology from Toshiba and NEC won the support of the DVD Forum in November.

The DVD Forum is the alliance of some 220 DVD companies, including electronics and media firms.

The DVD industry has seen other format wars. There are five different rewriteable red laser technologies on the market, many of which will not play discs recorded with a competing standard.

Crucial in the blue laser battle will be the support of the Hollywood movie studios, which are expected to adopt just one standard for pre-recorded (read-only) blue laser DVDs.

"The BD-ROM (read-only) format, developed in collaboration with Hollywood studios and the IT industry, is expected to be available early 2004, allowing for BD-ROM products to be available by the end of 2005," the Blu-ray group said.
 
Quite funny to see how Sony and Toshiba are competing with different formats, whereas they as hand in hand in the development of PS3 (like they were with PS2)
 
Why is that funny? It's perfectly normal for Japanese companies to compete in some segments while cooperating in others...

Hell it's not even limited to strictly Japanese companies, all sorts of companies do it... You didn't exactly see Sony drop its Windows license when MS came out with Xbox now did you?
 
...

Quite funny to see how Sony and Toshiba are competing with different formats, whereas they as hand in hand in the development of PS3 (like they were with PS2)
Sony Electronics and Toshiba are rivals on bad blood.
SCEI and Toshiba are allies.

Sony Electronics and SCEI are enemies within Sony Group. The old saying goes, the friend of your enemy is your friend...
 
Hollywood studios issued nine demands for a next-generation disk system spec. Hisashi Yamada, technology officer of Toshiba's digital media network company, said the HD DVD format fulfills all requirements, especially the request for sufficient disk capacity.

"HD DVD or Bru-ray, which is advantageous is dependent on how quickly the HD-packaged media market takes off," said Kanji Katsuura, executive vice president and chief technical officer of Memory-Tech Corp., a major disk press manufacturer.

"About 800 lines in the world are in operation to press DVD read-only disks, and about 600 lines out of them can be switched to HD DVD disk production as it is," said Katsuura. Memory-Tech is an independent disk manufacturer, but had strongly supported HD DVD format last October after one-year comparison of HD DVD (AOD at that time) and BD formats.

With the approval of HD DVD-ROM version 0.9 at the DVD forum steering committee last November, Toshiba demonstrated an HD DVD player prototype at CES. It showed playback video compressed by MPEG2, WMV9 and H.264, the candidates for HD DVD compression technology.

The steering committee of the DVD Forum will decide the codec when licensing terms for each technology become clear, probably at the next meeting scheduled at the end of February. It is likely that the committee will endorse all or multiple compression technologies as the new codec for HD DVD.

"About 90 percent of circuitry can be shared both for H.264 and WVM9 decoding, so it won't be difficult or costly if two codecs are integrated into one LSI," said Yamada.

Rick Hayatsu, chief manager of NEC's first storage product division, added that if multiple codecs become mandatory, software makers can choose the one with the most advantageous licensing terms.

With approval of the physical layer of HD DVD-ROM, the forum will work on establishing video format. At the February meeting, HD DVD-RAM, the recording format is also expected to be approved.
 
archie4oz said:
Hell it's not even limited to strictly Japanese companies, all sorts of companies do it... You didn't exactly see Sony drop its Windows license when MS came out with Xbox now did you?

Nor did Apple ever stop selling Microsoft Office after basically getting drop-kicked out of their position. :p

Still, it's always "a little funny" when you think about it. Hehe...
 
Re: ...

Deadmeat said:
The old saying goes, the friend of your enemy is your friend...

I believe the saying is “the enemy of my enemy is my friendâ€￾. It is lessor know that the saying continues as follows “especially when he gives an enema to my enemyâ€￾.
 
There is an awesome (IMHO) piece written based on the CES2004 presentations of the rival next-generation formats at this website.

It paints a picture of the formats which is quite unlike the tit-for-tat debate we've often seen here, to the point of a moderate or larger victory for the Blu-Ray Group. I'd recommend reading the article in full, but here are some snippets and pictures which impressed me:

Thursday, January 8th was a big day for the Blu-ray Group at CES - the first U.S. press conference to promote the format was held here. The invitation-only event was packed wall to wall with media and representatives of the various group members. I'll tell you that I haven't seen so many suits in one place in my life. As the media filed into the room, the entire back wall of the conference room was lined with anxious Japanese executives and engineers. Also in attendance were Kuni Ando (President and Group COO of Sony), Frans van Houten (CEO of Royal Philips Consumer Electronics Business Groups) and Ben Feingold (President of Columbia TriStar Home Entertainment), who were among the many people who spoke to the audience during the presentation.

The big announcement of the event was impressive indeed - the Blu-ray Group has earned the support of the two biggest PC manufacturers in the world, Dell and HP. Representatives of both companies were on hand to endorse Blu-ray Disc as "the most consumer-friendly technology choice for the next generation of removable storage." The Group also announced the online release of a White Paper describing the physical, logical and application specs of the format, and also some of the key enabling technologies (for further reading, you can find that on the Internet at this link).

On the often argued point about Blue-Ray and the Caddies, for those who didn't believe me when I said they were working toward making the family cartridge-less:

On this issue, however, I learned some very interesting things from a Japanese engineer with Sony. The Blu-ray Group is working to overcome a few technological difficulties, but the hope is that eventually recordable Blu-ray Disc media (BD-R and BD-RE) will not require the cartridge. Even more interestingly, I learned that BD-ROM media already does not require a cartridge. What that means to you is that pre-recorded movies on Blu-ray Disc format will look and feel virtually identical to current DVD discs, and can be packaged in the same way. Just pop the disc out of the case and slip it into your Blu-ray player's tray.

<img src=http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/wces04/bluraydiscs.jpg height=180 width=270> <img src=http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/wces04/plasmashowingbluray.jpg height=180 width=270>

As a personal comment: Holy Shit that looks hot.

Now let's talk about Toshiba and NEC's HD-DVD. I wish I could tell you that HD-DVD made a good showing at CES, but there were no press conferences and no presentations to the media. In fact, Toshiba made only one real announcement with regard to the format, namely that the company has developed a prototype HD-DVD player that uses a single-lens optical head mechanism which integrates both blue and red laser diodes. Translated, that means they've developed a player that can play both standard-definition DVD and high-definition HD-DVD discs, using a single optical head. That's certainly good news because it means the hardware is compact and more economical to manufacture, meaning cheaper prices for consumers. This prototype player was on display in the Toshiba booth (more on that in a minute).

<img src=http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/wces04/hddvdlogo.jpg height=180 width=270> <img src=http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/wces04/hddvdplayer.jpg height=180 width=270>

The much coveted HD-DVD logo that Deadmeat said consumers would demand has been unveiled.

And In Conclusion said:
In our recently released book, The Digital Bits: Insider's Guide to DVD, Todd and I picked Blu-ray Disc as having the edge in the race to capture the next generation optical disc market. After what I've seen at CES, I'm even more convinced of this than ever. What's more, I think that edge is widening. The next generation optical disc format may still be at least 2 or 3 years away for consumers, but I'll tell you, the Blu-ray Group really seems to have its act together. If HD-DVD is going to make any kind of impact, and have a chance to really compete with Blu-ray Disc, Toshiba really needs to start moving and shaking soon.
 
I &lt;3 Will Smith

I found these tidbits a bit more interesting, though:
Costs for producing Blu-ray Disc are expected to eventually be within 10% of DVD-9 replication once economies of scale come into play.
...confirming the the eventual cost difference for disks will be pretty much in line with what exists now. Not sure if there have been any figures released for HD-DVD, but I would assume them to be somewhere between. Certainly not bad for a fongul-load more storage, though. :p

This part I think most interesting, because we haven't gotten timing figures yet that I know of:
In addition, BD-ROM discs come in two configurations, both single-sided. You can have a single-layered BD-ROM disc capable of storing 25 GB of data, or a dual-layered BD-ROM disc which holds 50 GB of data. The format also allows for the same kind of "on the fly" layer switching as current DVD, for the playback of longer movies. What this means for you, is that a single-layered BD-ROM disc can contain 135 minutes of high-definition movie data, along with 3 languages of Dolby Digital surround audio and 3 hours of bonus, standard-definition video content, OR it can contain 135 minutes of high-definition movie data, along with 3 languages of audio in Dolby Digital, DTS and PCM, and 70 minutes of bonus, standard-definition video content. That's enough room to contain most Hollywood movies, plus a documentary. But for longer films, there's dual-layered BD-ROM (using a layer switch). A dual-layered BD-ROM disc can contain 3 hours of high-definition movie data, along with 3 languages of Dolby Digital audio and 9 hours of bonus, standard-definition video content, OR 3 hours of high-def movie data, 3 languages of audio in Dolby Digital, DTS and PCM, plus 2 hours of bonus, high-definition video material. In other words, there's a configuration that allows Blu-ray Disc to contain virtually any Hollywood film, plus bonus material, all on a single disc.
Which in my mind solidifies the most crucial importance for each next-gen technology... How much it stores. PC's, of course, will prefer Blu-Ray because of the storage sizes (25/50 > 15/30 = customers like), but for Hollywood's purpose and the home player market, it comes down to how many hours and minutes of material can be fit on. Are there any figures on HD-DVD yet, or even their compression scheme versus Blu-Ray's for approximation? Not having to buy expensive new equipment is good, and of course if the media is cheaper to produce in general that is ALSO what is looked for, but the hardest thing is getting the public to adopt new technology. You certainly don't want to get them involved on one format, find out you need more room, and then pretend you can get them to easily adopt another one. Also, from a cost perspective, you suddenly lose out with cheaper disks when you discover you have to use two instead of one to release the content you want.

In this light, which medium provides the most headroom? Which has the most growth potential?

The only thing for SURE is that there are no easy or obvious answers, and the reasons for going one way or another are never a simple formula.
 
cthellis42 said:
I &lt;3 Will Smith

Haha! :p

I found these tidbits a bit more interesting, though

Yeah, maybe! I just didn't want to post it all and decided to talk about acceptance since this is the Console Forum and I think it would be really neat to see PlayStation3 supporting BD-ROM.

WSR Reber: Will the next-generation Sony PlayStation® 3 be a hybrid machine with Blu-ray technology?

Fidler: At this time, I can’t comment on that. I think, certainly, there will be opportunities to explore that moving forward, but there has been no decision at this point in time.
 
HD-DVD-ROM discs are designed to hold only 15GB (single-layered) and 30GB (dual-layered). That presumably means that high-definition video is going to have to be more highly compressed on an HD-DVD disc to hold the same amount of content (in minutes) as a Blu-ray Disc (or the content will have to be spread over more discs or sides in HD-DVD format).

I guess somebody should've told this guy HD-DVD will incorporate a new more efficient more advanced codec :LOL: :oops:

It's kinda strange that the author of that article didn't have any pictures of HD-DVD material being shown at Toshiba's booth...


nec02.jpg

ces0504.jpg

ces0508.jpg

ces0503.jpg

More images:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/AV/docs/20031218/nec03.jpg
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0109/ces0507.jpg
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0109/ces0510.jpg
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0109/ces0509.jpg
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0109/ces0505.jpg
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0109/ces0512.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/AV/docs/20031218/nec11.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20031007/ceat4_22.jpg
 
He mentions the compression. (Or at least since he mentions it needs it, he probably knows about its existance, but no real details.) But from the "details" perspective, do we know just what kind of difference it's likely to make?
 
So, in conclusion, since i'm quite lazy to read all that crap,

What's it gonna be? Am i gonna buy Blue-ray discs or HD-DVD in 5 years time? (If we know anything specific yet)

Just curious...

Archie, yeah you're right, but it's still a bit funny ;)
 
That's kinda what's getting worked out there, lb. Since you're not interested until five years from now, check back then--we'll know. :p
 
cthellis42 said:
That's kinda what's getting worked out there, lb. Since you're not interested until five years from now, check back then--we'll know. :p


:LOL: I don't WANT to be interested, i'm already broke as it is, i just know that if i get too much info on this jewels i'll start hunting for brand new players on the net and freaking buy one! *DONT LOOK!!!!!! DONT LOOOOOOOOOK!!!!!!!* ;)
 
Well, you'll need to have a good HDTV to really care about this anyway, so until you've got one of those why bother? ;)

The answer for now, though, is "there is no answer."
 
LondonBoy said:
What's it gonna be? Am i gonna buy Blue-ray discs or HD-DVD in 5 years time? (If we know anything specific yet)
I don't really think it matters.
What does matter is that we'll get cheaper stuff faster so long as both competitors are putting out a good fight. From selfish consumer perspective, I would prefer to see both formats to succeed (even though that would drive respective fanboys crazy for years to come).

Archie, yeah you're right, but it's still a bit funny
Heh, you should have seen some things IBM did in the past. My favourite was when they were developping and releasing software for Windows platform first, and only porting it to their inhouse OS solutions with long delays, or sometimes never -___-
And that while one of their OSs was still in direct competition with Windows on consumer market. And people wonder why MS took the market so easily...
 
Fafalada said:
From selfish consumer perspective, I would prefer to see both formats to succeed (even though that would drive respective fanboys crazy for years to come).

Funny thing is they might, since there are different purposings. HD-DVD could be the primary release format for HDTV movies and cheaper players, while Blu-Ray is much more likely to have data (and gaming?) usage and be the recordable medium of choice (for PVRs and similar devices). (And, of course, it would still have content releases from some sources like Columbia.)

The only thing for certain is that publishers are not going to double up on their equipment to produce for both simultaneously, and retailers don't have the kind of shelf space for it either. But in the meanwhile, issa gonna be a lively ping-pong match. :p And we have many years to go, potentially.
 
cthellis42 said:
He mentions the compression. (Or at least since he mentions it needs it, he probably knows about its existance, but no real details.) But from the "details" perspective, do we know just what kind of difference it's likely to make?

Well according to this quote:

"About 90 percent of circuitry can be shared both for H.264 and WVM9 decoding, so it won't be difficult or costly if two codecs are integrated into one LSI," said Yamada."

It looks like it's going to be one or the other or both and we know that T2 EE is 156 minutes (2 hrs 36 min), encoded in WVM9, and fits onto one DVD-9 disc and since a dual layer HD-DVD-ROM has 30GBs, you can do the math. ;)

Basically a dual layer HD-DVD-ROM can hold THREE 1080p 2.5 hour movies. This would be pretty neat for boxed sets...
 
Back
Top