AOD vs Blu-ray revisited...

[London Geezer]

Hmmmm.....soooo the DVD Group know something about BR that we dont?

Most certainly.... "They" always know more than we do

 

[chapback]

That could explain things, else why the constant shelving of a tech, that on paper, to the outsiders, seems coolly perfecto to replace DVD?

Something sinister must be uppa BR sleeves!

 

[asicnewbie]

Re: DVD Forum approves portion of new format.

I still fail to see how AOD is so much more backward compatible... it still uses a different laser... they do use the same NA setting but the manufacturers have to modify the laser to switch the wavelenght and nothing stops Blu-Ray players to have a laser that reads both Blu-Ray discs and DVDs... PlayStation 2 has a laser that reads DVDs and CDs and they have different wavelenght and NA.

You really kind of answered your own question. From my interpretation of the article, it sounds like the AOD platform is "more" compatible and the BRD is "less" compatible -- i.e. two shades of gray, not some "BLACK/WHITE" relationship. Both AOD and BluRAY require changes to the existing CD/DVD-pickup, but the AOD requires fewer changes or less expensive ones (with current technology.) Likewise, from a disc-replicator's standpoint, both AOD and BluRAY require plant-equipment changes, with AOD being trivial to implement and BluRAY being a greater task.

As for why DVDs and CDs can get away with a single laser, an optical-media guy told me it has to do with physics and politics. The wavelength difference between CD and DVD is limited (compared to blue-laser DVD and red-laser DVD), and thus the NA can be kept within shouting distance. More importantly, the developers set a goal for single-laser pickup to support both CD and DVD readout, and the specs were selected to meet this requirement.

The physics allow a red-laser DVD to hold somehwat greater capacity than the currently ratified DVD-spec. But the greater capacity would have meant more costly drives.

His opinion on BluRay was that it sacrificed too much media durability (i.e. needs a caddy due to its thin media protective layer) for its extra capacity. But that's just his opinion. On the other hand, as we've already sen, AOD's DVD-compatibility came at the cost of capacity -- an AOD-ROM disc has a mere 3X capacity (30GB vs 9GB) improvement. Compare that with the ~7X jump from CD to DVD (single-side, single-layer.)

On an unrelated note, China is hoping to boost the raw capacity of EVD discs by using a different modulation scheme (recording waveform.) The improved capacity EVD-disc would store somewhat more than a DVD-9 and somewhat less than an AOD disc, still using the same old red-laser. At best, it would double DVD-9 capacity. And obviously, the improved-media requires new chipsets, so from a mfg standpoint, EVD-readers would require hardware-modification to DVD-9 readers.

> I think the WM9 thing is the thing that is sparkling new interest for AOD.

Microsoft is well-hated by most of the Hollywood media companies, which have tremendous weight on the steering committee. I guess the truth is that established monopolies don't like other monopolies muscling in on their territory

 

[Wunderchu]

http://www.anandtech.com/news/shownews.html?i=21221

 

[Nappe1]

sony has made a lot of mistakes launching own standards, but this time, sony isn't alone on Blu-Ray camp. C-Casette and Compact Disc are both basically coming from these companies when they were new.

Blu-Ray camp consists at least:
Sony, Matsushita (Panasonic, JVC, Technics), Philips, Mitsubishi Electronics and Samsung.

So if all these walk out from DVD-forum and start DVD-HD boycott, how many companies there's left to support it? how that's gonna affect on hardware pricedrops? Certainly Blu-Ray camp has some difficuties ahead too if they choose not to support something that Hollywood is supporting, but that doesn't mean it would be dead.

 

[Deadmeat]

...

So if all these walk out from DVD-forum and start DVD-HD boycott, how many companies there's left to support it?

The whole Hollywood and PC venders(Intel, IBM, and MS). It is AOD that will be getting titles, not Blu-Ray.

 

[Vince]

Re: ...

The whole Hollywood and PC venders(Intel, IBM, and MS). It is AOD that will be getting titles, not Blu-Ray.

If this a joke? All of hollywood, huh? Sure, minus Sony Pictures & Disney that I know of - which alone have more pull than all the BS companies you listed. PC vendors and 2nd rate asian manufacturing companies have no weight compared to the media powerhouses which will dicate which standard media is recorded on and what players will be in the household, next to the TV, in the 21st century. The push for this will come from the CE community, there is no need for high capacity media on the PC at this time - but there is in the broadband enabled, High-Definition livingroom.

AOD will most likely get rocked by the sheer weight of the CE powers aligned against them.

World's first red/write Blu-Ray disc file system for MS Windows.

 

[Deadmeat]

...

All of hollywood, huh? Sure, minus Sony Pictures & Disney that I know of -

Did Disney ever state that they would sink with Blu-Ray only???

which alone have more pull than all the BS companies you listed.

So AOL/TW+Universal+Paramount+Fox+Dreamworks < Sony???

Hollywood doesn't want Blu-ray, they want AOD. It is a done deal. Blu-Ray might salvage itself as a VCR replacement, but nothing more..

PC vendors and 2nd rate asian manufacturing companies have no weight compared to the media powerhouses which will dicate which standard media is recorded on and what players will be in the household, next to the TV, in the 21st century.

Exactly. And Hollywood picked AOD over Blu-ray, it's a done deal.

AOD will most likely get rocked by the sheer weight of the CE powers aligned against them.

Keep dreaming.

 

[cthellis42]

Re: ...

Did Disney ever state that they would sink with Blu-Ray only???

Did AOL/TW+Universal+Paramount+Fox+Dreamworks ever state they would stick with HD-DVD only???

Many are attracted to the lower initial production costs, but they also don't like the prospects of switching standards after only a few years if there's not enough headroom. (Or won't offer as many features, or will have production costs swing the other way eventually...) Near as I can tell there are no "done deals" and decisions etched in stone. Heck, many are still interested in getting out "deteriorating DVDs" that lose function after two days to offer a new rental model that may be appealing to more customers. Publishers are continually looking ahead and not paranoidically afraid of changing equipment and scraping every nickel they can in the immediate market--and on that front, not everything has been seen OR decided.

 

[Paul]

Exactly. And Hollywood picked AOD over Blu-ray, it's a done deal.

They didn't pick anything, Blu-ray never was submitted for vote.

But anyway, Blu-Ray is the better format and with the top 10 CE companies backing it AOD has no chance in hell. Oh yea, and what's going to happen when Blu-ray gets pushed into 75M+ PS3's?

What's going to happen when you have 10 companies which are the biggest drive makers on earth making Blu-Ray drives for PC's, Blu-Ray players, and video game consoles?

 

[Nappe1]

besides, BR-consortium is "CD like" (means it's basically open standard with minimal extension applying costs.) while DVD-consortium has kept the DVD as closed standard, where you pay licence feeds to the forum members on every product that has DVD-logo.

 

[Deadmeat]

...

Disney joins the AOD camp. Plus why Hollywood prefers AOD over Blu-Ray

The article says it all; AOD costs only 15% more to press and is read-only while Blu-Ray is much more expensive and is writable... No wonder Hollywood loves AOD.

The HD DVD group may get another lift in February, when Disney, Microsoft and Sanyo are expected to take over leadership of the DVD Forum. The companies have not sided with either format but are seen by some as friendlier to the Toshiba-NEC group.

Though the two camps produce discs that store similar amounts of data, manufacturers say the HD DVD discs cost only 15 percent more to produce than current discs, a fraction of what they say the Blu-ray discs will cost. Stamping out prerecorded discs cheaply is the key to wooing Hollywood studios, which want to keep retail prices low in a business that now earns more money than movies in first-run theaters. Retailers want one standard so that they do not have to stock two versions of every movie.

"What Hollywood cares about is cost," said Kanji Katsuura, chief technical officer at Memory-Tech, the second-largest maker of DVD's in Japan. "They basically want the same price as discs now."

 

[Deadmeat]

...

Many are attracted to the lower initial production costs, but they also don't like the prospects of switching standards after only a few years if there's not enough headroom.

And Hollywood is very very much afraid of a disc format originally intended for video recording and doesn't even have a ROM version yet.

Near as I can tell there are no "done deals" and decisions etched in stone.

Yap, it is a done deal. AOD is the accepted and approved HD-DVD standard, Blu-Ray won't displace it from that role now.

But anyway, Blu-Ray is the better format and with the top 10 CE companies backing it AOD has no chance in hell.

Blue-ray players can't even carry "DVD-compatible" logo unless it plays back AOD. But the consumers are hit with a higher price accordingly.

Oh yea, and what's going to happen when Blu-ray gets pushed into 75M+ PS3's?

You won't see Blue Ray in PSX3, it costs too much to be included into PSX3 launching at $299. You might see one in "PSX3", but it will price itself out of market at at around current "PSX" prices.

What's going to happen when you have 10 companies which are the biggest drive makers on earth making Blu-Ray drives for PC's, Blu-Ray players, and video game consoles?

They are free to do what they wish to do with the Blu-Ray technology. But without movie titles(which will be exclusive to AOD), its market acceptance will be dismal.

Right now, Blu-Ray's only chance is to establish itself as a VCR replacement. Remember that AOD is the accepted HD-DVD standard, so only AOD discs will carry a "HD-DVD" logo and only AOD players will have the "HD-DVD" logo in front. Average consumers only care about that "HD-DVD" logo on their discs and players.

 

[zidane1strife]

Just look at the names...

Blu-ray... AOD....

Blu-ray sounds better IMHO....

So...

Clearly the future belongs to Blu-ray...

As has happened in the past, as has been...

will history repeat itself again, as it tends to do?

 

[Deadmeat]

...

AOD.... Blu-ray sounds better IMHO....

AOD is a technical name known to few technical people; the general public will know it as "HD-DVD", while Blu-Ray will be known as Blu-Ray.

 

[Paul]

You won't see Blue Ray in PSX3, it costs too much to be included into PSX3 launching at $299. You might see one in "PSX3", but it will price itself out of market at at around current "PSX" prices.

You remind me of all those people back in 97 who kept going on and on about how PS2 using a DVD drive was imposible. It was too expensive for Sony to implement a DVD drive into it's new console, the costs are too high, it's not possible, etc. Hell, I bet you were even one of them.

It has also been pretty much accepted that the Blu-Ray drive inside a PS3 would not be a full featured one, it will not feature the caddy, nor would it be RW drive.

They are free to do what they wish to do with the Blu-Ray technology. But without movie titles(which will be exclusive to AOD), its market acceptance will be dismal.

Whichever standard has more drives bought by the market will have the Movies made for it. This cannot be debated. And the Blu-Ray camp has more of a chance of installing Blu-Ray into homes than that of the AOD camp, need I remind you PS3? Which will shove Blu-Ray into millions of homes in a matter of hours(quite litterally)

Right now, Blu-Ray's only chance is to establish itself as a VCR replacement.

I love how you always come to such broad conclusions which seemingly always fall on their ass. EG: Broadband Engine is nothing but a "server chip".

Then again I guess Kutaragi ordered Toshiba to throw in the extra VU at the last minute huh?

Remember that AOD is the accepted HD-DVD standard, so only AOD discs will carry a "HD-DVD" logo and only AOD players will have the "HD-DVD" logo in front.

It's not accepted. To be accepted means it has to be accepted by the market, aka the general public. Just because the drives have a stamp on them means nothing - it's irrelevant to everyone except those backing the format.

Average consumers only care about that "HD-DVD" logo on their discs and players.

No?

 

[Vince]

Re: ...

Ok Deadmeat. I know your a psychopath when it comes to anything Sony and have historically had a problem with mis/selective quoting of people to further your discussion positions - but this is getting old.

Disney joins the AOD camp. Plus why Hollywood prefers AOD over Blu-Ray

The article never, never stated that Disney has lent support to the HD-DVD/AOD standard. In fact, you're right when you said the artciel says it all as it said:

The HD DVD group may get another lift in February, when Disney, Microsoft and Sanyo are expected to take over leadership of the DVD Forum. The companies have not sided with either format but are seen by some as friendlier to the Toshiba-NEC group

Now, explain to me how Disney taking over the rotating leadership position (IIRC) of the DVD Forum has given you the insight to proclaim that Disney is an AOD support? What am I missing?

Actually, there was a report which cited a Disney Executive who stated his intention to contribute to the Blu-Ray specification. If anyone remembers this....

www.webtechgeek.com/IndexWTG.htm+Disney+revenue+Blu-Ray+licensing&hl=en&ie=UTF-8]Blu-Ray[/url], HD-DVD Article[/url]]For a standard to be successful, the support of Japanese giants Sony and Matshushita, which operates the Panasonic and JVC brands, is crucial, said investment bank J.P. Morgan in a research note

 

[Vince]

Average consumers only care about that "HD-DVD" logo on their discs and players.

No?

Exactly. His comments are so obtuse, as to believe that you need the DVD Forum's approval for something that's not DVD related. As if the HD-DVD sticker will make a difference to the consumer whose staring at all the major CE electronics companies Blu-Ray players in Best Buy.

 

[function]

You remind me of all those people back in 97 who kept going on and on about how PS2 using a DVD drive was imposible. It was too expensive for Sony to implement a DVD drive into it's new console, the costs are too high, it's not possible, etc. Hell, I bet you were even one of them.

Obviously no two people live in the same sphere of influence (or whatever etc) but I don't remember anyone during the run up to the PS2 going on and on about how how it was impossible for the PS2 to use DVD because it was too expensive to implement. And yes, I was even on the internet back then, and don't remember seeing any of it there. Could just be me having a gammy memory of course, but I don't think it is.

What I do remeber is that in early 1998, 2 years before the PS2's release, a DVD drive was about £100 or a bit over. Right now, 2 years before the PS3's projected release date, a Blue Ray drive is over £2000. While this isn't conclusive evidence by any means, it's all I have to go off (as no-one has posted manufacturing prices of the drives) and it's why I'm sceptical that BR will be the medium of choice for the PS3.

It has also been pretty much accepted that the Blu-Ray drive inside a PS3 would not be a full featured one, it will not feature the caddy, nor would it be RW drive.

Pretty much accepted by whom?

I've seen people on this board speculating that BR will lose the caddy before it goes mainstream, but I've seen nothing from Sony on the matter. Personally, I really hope it does lose the caddy. But this isn't the main question I have.

Where have people been saying that the PS3 BR won't be a 'propper' BR drive? That it won't be able to write? This wasn't part of the description of what the BR/PS3 advocates were determining, as far as I rember, a few months back. I'd only ever considered PS3 BR to be Blue Ray in the form it has been introduced and marketed so far. If it can't do what Blue Ray drives can do, and meet the specs that BR has been sold on so far (read/write speed/capacity) surely you can't really call it a BR drive? Or maybe you can, I guess we'll see.

I thought the discussion a while back was about a PS3 that could record (possibly even your TV shows, PSX style). I remeber advocating a console that was focused on playing games and being a media player/download terminal rather than a replacement for a VCR, even though I'd certainly like a replacement for my VCR ...

Anyway, I personally don't much care at this point which format wins in terms of being the next standard - BR or AOD. I'd side with whatever gives consumers the best value for money. And I stress that I'm not in what I perceive to be the Deameat anti-Sony camp.

 

[Psychogenics]

You remind me of all those people back in 97 who kept going on and on about how PS2 using a DVD drive was imposible. It was too expensive for Sony to implement a DVD drive into it's new console, the costs are too high, it's not possible, etc. Hell, I bet you were even one of them.

Obviously no two people live in the same sphere of influence (or whatever etc) but I don't remember anyone during the run up to the PS2 going on and on about how how it was impossible for the PS2 to use DVD because it was too expensive to implement. And yes, I was even on the internet back then, and don't remember seeing any of it there. Could just be me having a gammy memory of course, but I don't think it is.

What I do remeber is that in early 1998, 2 years before the PS2's release, a DVD drive was about £100 or a bit over. Right now, 2 years before the PS3's projected release date, a Blue Ray drive is over £2000. While this isn't conclusive evidence by any means, it's all I have to go off (as no-one has posted manufacturing prices of the drives) and it's why I'm sceptical that BR will be the medium of choice for the PS3.

It has also been pretty much accepted that the Blu-Ray drive inside a PS3 would not be a full featured one, it will not feature the caddy, nor would it be RW drive.

Pretty much accepted by whom?

I've seen people on this board speculating that BR will lose the caddy before it goes mainstream, but I've seen nothing from Sony on the matter. Personally, I really hope it does lose the caddy. But this isn't the main question I have.

Where have people been saying that the PS3 BR won't be a 'propper' BR drive? That it won't be able to write? This wasn't part of the description of what the BR/PS3 advocates were determining, as far as I rember, a few months back. I'd only ever considered PS3 BR to be Blue Ray in the form it has been introduced and marketed so far. If it can't do what Blue Ray drives can do, and meet the specs that BR has been sold on so far (read/write speed/capacity) surely you can't really call it a BR drive? Or maybe you can, I guess we'll see.

I thought the discussion a while back was about a PS3 that could record (possibly even your TV shows, PSX style). I remeber advocating a console that was focused on playing games and being a media player/download terminal rather than a replacement for a VCR, even though I'd certainly like a replacement for my VCR ...

Anyway, I personally don't much care at this point which format wins in terms of being the next standard - BR or AOD. I'd side with whatever gives consumers the best value for money. And I stress that I'm not in what I perceive to be the Deameat anti-Sony camp.

You are crazy it was the PS2 that brought those DVD player price Down,,,In 2000 DVD players averaged $500 and thats 4x speed.One of the biggest attractions to PS2 was this and one of the reasons that it sold like Hot cake....PS3 just got a bump in the Blu-ray direction.Oh and Since ken K. is in charge of the Blu-ray department I'm 90% sure BD is going inside of PS3.