Another Richard Huddy Interview

[Evildeus]

Let's use simple numbers out of my head to make an imaginational point.

Suppose Ati needs 66M transistors for a SM2 part and 99M for that same part in SM3 (66 = 2/3 *99)

Now suppose another future product is like the previous product but in smaller process, clocked higher and adds 50M transistors of cache to the same part. Now they would need 116M transistors for SM2 and 149M transistors for SM3. Not 2/3 anymore...

edit: okay so point is... they could add or subtract anything from their parts and the ratio could change...not likely that it always stays at "2/3 no matter what" anyways

Well, you could be right, but i think the gap will increase rather than dicrease. To be able to power up the new possibilities which seem a bit difficult to handle, the differencies between a SM2.0 and SM3.0 part will grow IMHO, so i would say to the contrary Of course i could be wrong

 

[Proforma]

3D cards

I don't like how ATI is holding the industry back because they can't compete with Nvidia. Nvidia's NV3X might have been crap, but at least it came with mostly standard features of DX.

Also speed is a non issue, ATI's latest offerings can be a few frames per second greater than Nvidia's latest or vice versa (well except with Doom 3 where Nvidia seriously hurts ATI).

Also power supply needs aren't that different. Sure the latest chip from Nvidia draws more power, its got 222 Million transistors on a .13 micron process. It does not draw significantly more power than ATI's offering.

Beyond 3D really has become too ATI centric for my tastes. I still visit here for info but it makes me sad that people choose platforms instead of choosing what is right for them.

I like my ATI Radeon, I don't like a couple things about it (ie driver issues like mad with games and hardware and the elimination of lower resolutions). However, I do like the monthly driver upgrades although they break as many things as they fix.

I will always remember the insane speeds its given me in the past when I upgraded from my Geforce 3, wow, went from 300 frames per second to a thousand! Now thats insane.

I can see why people distrust Nvidia and I don't blame them, I see all the lies happened because Nvidia didn't have a product to compete so they did all that crap. ATI has been doing some simular things now as they are having some problems in that department as well and now everyone denies it, its like a battered wife syndrome. Some people can see things clearly because they don't go by what ATI is or Nvidia is, but by what product has the features, IQ, and speed and I have stated many times that in this Generation ATI falls short for me personally. Nvidia fell short last time two years ago and ATI should have taken advantage of it and stay ahead of Nvdia but they didn't and thus things change once again.

Another thing thats bloody anoying is that I can't optimize my computer to use memory for system cache as ATI still has this screwed up and it actually will kill my browser every time and getting a folder listing. ATI needs to fix this as this is NOT professional. I know this bug has been documented over and over, they should fix this for everyone.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Re: 3D cards

I don't like how ATI is holding the industry back because they can't compete with Nvidia. Nvidia's NV3X might have been crap, but at least it came with mostly standard features of DX.

Is that how they're trying to re-write history? Whatever happened to the whole infamous "but they don't support fp24 in any realistic manner!" thingy and the trying to force the industry to do things their way bit?

Not trying to flame you here, I just hate seeing innaccurate info posted up.

 

[Bjorn]

Re: 3D cards

I don't like how ATI is holding the industry back because they can't compete with Nvidia. Nvidia's NV3X might have been crap, but at least it came with mostly standard features of DX.

MRT's ?

Though sure, the R420 doesn't support SM3.0 but i doubt that it will hold back the industry in any way. The switch to SM3.0 (or better) will go rather quick anyway thanks to the next gen consoles.

 

[whql]

I don't like how ATI is holding the industry back because they can't compete with Nvidia.

Can't compete? Seems like they are more than competing at the moment. They made a choice to go the route they have.

Nvidia's NV3X might have been crap, but at least it came with mostly standard features of DX.

Funny, so do ati.

Beyond 3D really has become too ATI centric for my tastes.

Well, you don't have to visit.

However, I do like the monthly driver upgrades although they break as many things as they fix.

No need to make things up.

ATI is or Nvidia is, but by what product has the features, IQ, and speed and I have stated many times that in this Generation ATI falls short for me personally.

Looking at your post history it seems you've spent the last 50 post saying the same thing - I think people get your point. Isn't it about time you changed the record?

Interesting that you signed up in feb, have spent that entire time saying the same thing, always starting out with "I love my Radeon, but..." and then proceed to pick holes in it, make things up and appear to have obscure issues that afflict very few people (almost as though you've been trawling the ati error logs for stuff to moan about). Heh, go figure.

 

[Mariner]

Re: 3D cards

I don't like how ATI is holding the industry back because they can't compete with Nvidia. Nvidia's NV3X might have been crap, but at least it came with mostly standard features of DX.

Ugh. Not the old "holding the industry back" guff.

Oddly enough, some said the same in the past when NV didn't support PS1.4 in GF4. What actually happened was that we didn't even see fast take-up of PS1.1 because of the huge quantities of chips which were DX7 (or less) only.

We also heard this when the RV250/RV280 was released at the same time as NV34. It didn't seem to hold the industry back then. If you wanted to play Devil's Advocate you could even say that NV31/NV34 has held the industry back from adopting PS2.0 due to cruddy shader performance.

Personally, I'm glad to see NV pushing technology forwards as ATI did a couple of years ago and hopefully this will spur ATI (and other IHVs, fingers crossed) on to develop new chips featuring SM3.0+ more quickly.

Ultimately, though, the main thing "holding the industry back" will always be the capabilities of the integrated chipsets. All of those currently available have pathetic performance in comparison with even the most basic modern card yet still they sell in massive quantities. Developers are always going to have to think about this when designing games as it is just to large a segment of the market to ignore. The newly released Intel chipsets have terrible performance and I fully expect the new chipsets from both ATI and NV to be very poor in comparison to even an RV350/RV370 class chip which are very cheap these days.

Personally, I'm impressed with how quickly DX9 games are starting to appear (in comparison to the amount of time it has taken games supporting new techniques in the past) and I think that we can rely on developers to release SM3.0 games with good fallback support for SM2.0 in the same way that current SM2.0 games have fallbacks for DX8 and DX7 chips.

Ultimately, by not seeing or ignoring both sides of the argument (i.e. the one put forth by the PR departments of the two major IHVs), it appears you have swallowed the NV PR hook, line and sinker. As always, the truth will lie somewhere between the two.

 

[Tweaker]

Re: 3D cards

I don't like how ATI is holding the industry back because they can't compete with Nvidia.

I love when someone cite this nVidia PR BS

 

[Proforma]

Re: 3D cards

I don't like how ATI is holding the industry back because they can't compete with Nvidia. Nvidia's NV3X might have been crap, but at least it came with mostly standard features of DX.

Is that how they're trying to re-write history? Whatever happened to the whole infamous "but they don't support fp24 in any realistic manner!" thingy and the trying to force the industry to do things their way bit?

Not trying to flame you here, I just hate seeing innaccurate info posted up.

I don't know how anything could be more true. It is what it is. ATI is holding the industry back from supporting SM 3.0 and thats a fact. I don't think it can get any clearer than that.

Why can't ATI have the same standards that they introduced with the 9700? They were right on the technology curve and now they are using FUD and acting like SM 3.0 isn't usefull and of course it will be usefull by the time they come out with it sometime next year.

I am not a fanboy of Nvidia like you think, its just that when Nvidia dropped the ball at least they learned from it while ATI is making a lot of the same mistake and it sucks.

 

[Proforma]

Re: 3D cards

I don't like how ATI is holding the industry back because they can't compete with Nvidia. Nvidia's NV3X might have been crap, but at least it came with mostly standard features of DX.

MRT's ?

Though sure, the R420 doesn't support SM3.0 but i doubt that it will hold back the industry in any way. The switch to SM3.0 (or better) will go rather quick anyway thanks to the next gen consoles.

Yep, and Nvidia didn't have Mutlple Render Targets until now, they are also guilty, but at least they added them in the next gen and honestly not many people should have bought the horrible nv3x cards anyway.

 

[Proforma]

Re: 3D cards

I don't like how ATI is holding the industry back because they can't compete with Nvidia.

I love when someone cite this nVidia PR BS

The funny part isn't about any Nvidiot PR, its about the truth.
Like I said it is what it is and there is no denying the truth.

My problem is that Nvidia screwed up, but corrected it right away in the next gen. ATI has had over 2 years to correct their issues but have just added refresh after refresh after refresh, they have so many refreshes of the same product but with a speed bump that they are starting to look like 3DFX.

2006 with an ATI card: SM 3.0/4.0/5.0, DX Next are all fads, why should we want to innovate.

I am angry that ATI forsake's DX 9.0c innovation and holds developers back and its okay to concentrate on OEM, but they should also put out a decent product for higher end folks like myself.

Developers like myself are going to find it hard to support anything further than dx 9.0b because ATI doesn't support anything greater than that, not for one generation, but many.

I think many people here are beyond ATI fans, I think a lot of them are borderline obsessed with ATI which is not good for any objective and logical thinking.

I thought ATI was going to take the crown from Nvidia this generation like they did last generation from features to speed to IQ, boy was I wrong. I will admit that right now and after the Raeon 9700 why wouldn't I expect that?

The Radeon 9700 blew Nvidia out of the water. No brainer and no contest, but today they seem to want to loose to Nvidia and they have really lost focus on what they started out to be. They seem to be spread too thin with all the consoles and all the different chips (just like Nvidia was).

 

[euan]

Re: 3D cards

I don't like how ATI is holding the industry back because they can't compete with Nvidia. Nvidia's NV3X might have been crap, but at least it came with mostly standard features of DX.

Is that how they're trying to re-write history? Whatever happened to the whole infamous "but they don't support fp24 in any realistic manner!" thingy and the trying to force the industry to do things their way bit?

Not trying to flame you here, I just hate seeing innaccurate info posted up.

I don't know how anything could be more true. It is what it is. ATI is holding the industry back from supporting SM 3.0 and thats a fact. I don't think it can get any clearer than that.

Why can't ATI have the same standards that they introduced with the 9700? They were right on the technology curve and now they are using FUD and acting like SM 3.0 isn't usefull and of course it will be usefull by the time they come out with it sometime next year.

I am not a <bleep> of Nvidia like you think, its just that when Nvidia dropped the ball at least they learned from it while ATI is making a lot of the same mistake and it sucks.

You must think people who go and buy a budget 3d card are the scum of Earth.


Can you show some evidence of the 3d market being held back???

Nvidia released a PR statement mentioning that about 10 game developers were developing SM3 enabled games. That is far more than the number of SM2 games that arrives in the first year of the R300. (remember the 5800 wasn't around for the majority of those 12 months).

Just where do you get your opinions from, other than from fanatical preechers and PR statements (yes correct use of fanatical).

 

[euan]

Re: 3D cards

I don't like how ATI is holding the industry back because they can't compete with Nvidia.

I love when someone cite this nVidia PR BS

The funny part isn't about any Nvidiot PR, its about the truth.
Like I said it is what it is and there is no denying the truth.

My problem is that Nvidia screwed up, but corrected it right away in the next gen. ATI has had over 2 years to correct their issues but have just added refresh after refresh after refresh, they have so many refreshes of the same product but with a speed bump that they are starting to look like 3DFX.

2006 with an ATI card: SM 3.0/4.0/5.0, DX Next are all fads, why should we want to innovate.

I am angry that ATI forsake's DX 9.0c innovation and holds developers back and its okay to concentrate on OEM, but they should also put out a decent product for higher end folks like myself.

Developers like myself are going to find it hard to support anything further than dx 9.0b because ATI doesn't support anything greater than that, not for one generation, but many.

I think many people here are beyond ATI fans, I think a lot of them are borderline obsessed with ATI which is not good for any objective and logical thinking.

I thought ATI was going to take the crown from Nvidia this generation like they did last generation from features to speed to IQ, boy was I wrong. I will admit that right now and after the Raeon 9700 why wouldn't I expect that?

The Radeon 9700 blew Nvidia out of the water. No brainer and no contest, but today they seem to want to loose to Nvidia and they have really lost focus on what they started out to be. They seem to be spread too thin with all the consoles and all the different chips (just like Nvidia was).

All I can say to that is:




:edit:


No actually...

As a "developer", can you give us all the lowdown, on the issues you encountered when you evaluated > DX9b (especially considering SM3 has been around since the first release of DX9. Not to mention my R420 works just fine with DX9c. But that's just a technicallity.

What is missing from SM2 that is causing you much distress? Are there some parts of SM3 that your applicaiton is critically dependant on? If SM3 was supported by ATI, what sort of difference would this have made to your application. What are you doing for SM2 enabled cards, and below in your current project? What is your opinion on ATI, and Nvidias developer sessions, where they have highlighted the advantages and disadvantages of SM3 versus the current GPU performace levels you could expect to achieve?

What is the break point for SM3 development to be worthwhile? IE What level of market share of SM3 enabled cards is required to make it economically viable? What did your marketing department tell you with regards to the current target base?

As a small time developer, surely you should be aiming for the mass market, and target DX7/DX8 generation cards upto PS1.3?

 

[FUDie]

Re: 3D cards

I don't like how ATI is holding the industry back because they can't compete with Nvidia.

I love when someone cite this nVidia PR BS

The funny part isn't about any Nvidiot PR, its about the truth.
Like I said it is what it is and there is no denying the truth.

Your "truth" is opinion. Accept it and move on.

I am angry that ATI forsake's DX 9.0c innovation and holds developers back and its okay to concentrate on OEM, but they should also put out a decent product for higher end folks like myself.

So you're offended because ATI didn't make the card you wanted? Grow up! ATI is a business. They appear to be running it rather well.

Developers like myself are going to find it hard to support anything further than dx 9.0b because ATI doesn't support anything greater than that, not for one generation, but many.

You're a funny guy. ATI has released one generation with DX 9.0b (PS 2.x) support.

I think many people here are beyond ATI fans, I think a lot of them are borderline obsessed with ATI which is not good for any objective and logical thinking.

You're as obsessed as any f@nboi. And you're not one to talk about "objective and logical thinking". Haven't you taken the hint when your "arguments" and "truths" are ripped to shreds each time?

I thought ATI was going to take the crown from Nvidia this generation like they did last generation from features to speed to IQ, boy was I wrong. I will admit that right now and after the Raeon 9700 why wouldn't I expect that?

So because you were wrong, you have something personal against ATI? Again, I say, "Grow up!" The world is much bigger than you.

-FUDie

 

[whql]

I think many people here are beyond ATI fans, I think a lot of them are borderline obsessed with ATI which is not good for any objective and logical thinking.

Seeing as how this is you 54'th post that repeats the same thing I think you should look in the mirror before claiming obsession!

ATI has had over 2 years to correct their issues but have just added refresh after refresh after refresh, they have so many refreshes of the same product but with a speed bump that they are starting to look like 3DFX.

They aren't close to the nv2x era yet - why didn't we see you moaning about nvidia keep refreshing the same product for 3 years then?

Developers like myself are going to find it hard to support anything further than dx 9.0b because ATI doesn't support anything greater than that, not for one generation, but many.

Currently the only boards available are high end, and everyone knows that that isn't a sustainable market for developer to base on - most developer will only just now be looking to dx9 as the base. It doesn't stop developers from looking at shader 3 though, as there are boards that can do it already available. Plus, ati are working on new technology for 2 of the 3 next gen consoles - they will be shaping the techology that far more than just pc developer use.

I think a few people would be interested though - can you tell us what you actually do? What development house do you work for? What titles you've worked on?

 

[3dcgi]

Damn those people that haven't upgraded their video cards in over two years! They're holding back the industry.

 

[kyleb]

Re: 3D cards

Developers like myself are going to find it hard ...

what exactly have you developed? or are you just finding it hard to develop anything at all and looking to blame others?

 

[chavvdarrr]

VERY SAD THREAD.

Obviously even in beyond3d forums "bias" is most important thing for most people.

Let's sum it up:
3Dc is best 3d feature ever
SM3.0 is evil (ati presentation anybody? )
SM2.0b is best 3d feature ever
fp32 is evil
fp16 is evil
SM2.0a is evil
brilinear is evil when used from "enemy"
brilinear is best 3d feature ever when used from "us"
If enemy tells us how to benchmark its evil
If "my company" tells how to benchmark - its great
Supporting some standarts only partially is OK if its by "my" company
if "my" company sells slow budget card its ok
if "enemy" sells slow budget card its bad.
Pointing to any problem connected to "my" company is bad
Pointing to any problem connected to "enemy" company is good.
etc
etc
etc


Why this thread is not closed already?

 

[martrox]

What is so sad is that one person could so disail this thread. Chavvdarr, most of what you are seeing are fairly middle of the road people(yes - everyone has some bias) reacting to someone that is basicly trolling. The basic facts are that the differences between shaders on the X800 series vs. the 6800 series are very small compared to the differences between the R3xx and the NV3x. No matter what Proforma says about ATI "holding back" the industry, and no matter what he says about not being a decidedly biased person - where was he for the last 2 years when nVidia was decidedly producing a subpar card that really was holding back the industry? Where was his voice when nVidia was cheating and lying to cover a very uncompetitive product , a product designed to curcumvent shader 2.0a - not support it.

Want to answer those questions, Proforma?

Hmmm.............

 

[kyleb]

VERY SAD THREAD.

Obviously even in beyond3d forums "bias" is most important thing for most people.

Let's sum it up:
3Dc is best 3d feature ever

....

hum, i can't see where 3dc was even mentioned in this thread. did someone mention it or are you just dillusional with your own bias?

 

[chavvdarrr]

"Another Richard Huddy Interview"
http://www.oc-zone.com/modules.php?name=Articles&rop=conteudo&id=65
fact is, that 3Dc is NOT the best thing after bread, no matter what ATi marketing department says. Agree ?
I'm angry because although Proforma is not right for everything, some of his criticism is valid (IMHO) . And even his valid points are bashed, because people are too biased.

Both companies are in the game for the money. I see no reason to praise the one and bash the other more than they deserve.