AMD: R9xx Speculation

Thanks but no thanks! By virtue of being in x7xx series...it will be priced in the value/perf range...
So ... you really think they'll sell you a card that provides ~ GTX 470 performance for a ~ HD 5770 price tag? Now, that's the point where I have to say: I don't see that happen.

With Barts XT, we're either going to see a complete reshift of the midrange-GPU market (not only with respect performance, but also with respect to power draw and price) or a new kind of naming scheme some of you somehow seem to fear more than the pest.

Barts will mostly like end up a lot larger than Juniper, it will consume more power and require a more complex PCB. Irrespective of what they name it - given the current market situation, they most probably won't sell the XT version for less than current HD 5850 (which - mind you! - still would give the consumer a better price/performance ratio ...).
 
Thanks but no thanks!
By virtue of being in x7xx series...it will be priced in the value/perf range...don't give Dave AMD team any idea of renaming it to x8xx range....
So your saying that a new mid-range chip, can't be priced higher than the current mid-range, even if it might offer five times the performance?
If it performs HD58xx like, in the current market it can be priced HD58xx like
the first DX11 gpu batch were disappointing....high price...low than expected perf increase...still holding out on ma 4870 1GB.

Can I please please please snort whatever you are taking? the HD5850 was 20% faster than a GTX285 yet something like 30% cheaper at launch.
The only reason the 4890 looked "Cheaper" compared to the 5850 is because it's price dropped a lot just before launch, even the TPU 5850 review has the HD5850 only $10 more expensive than a 4890 a week after the 5850 launch. Of course, it was a good deal more faster than a 4890.

If that disappoints, I have no idea who can satisfy you in your world. but upping the performance a lot and introducing a slew of new features without an increase in price doesn't seem like a bad deal.
 
IF the 5770 is almost exactly half of a 5870 (minus DP-FP) and two 5770s in crossfire get approx. 40% faster/higher scoring than the 5870 even given the clock rate differences. If two 5770s are double the tesselation setup vs a 5870 (?) then (heres a long awaited question) .. then would not two 5770s in Crossfire (effectively a 5870/50) represent an 5800 with improved/fixed triangle setup?
Assuming a 100% efficiency, you'd get 2 tessellated triangles set-up in three cycles compared to one in HD 5870 (if I remember earlier analysis correctly) so a crossfire setup would basically double tessellated triangle throughput, yes. But that also includes doubling all contributing data paths and execution units as well as less memory access competition from them.
 
So ... you really think they'll sell you a card that provides ~ GTX 470 performance for a ~ HD 5770 price tag? Now, that's the point where I have to say: I don't see that happen.

With Barts XT, we're either going to see a complete reshift of the midrange-GPU market (not only with respect performance, but also with respect to power draw and price) or a new kind of naming scheme some of you somehow seem to fear more than the pest.

Barts will mostly like end up a lot larger than Juniper, it will consume more power and require a more complex PCB. Irrespective of what they name it - given the current market situation, they most probably won't sell the XT version for less than current HD 5850 (which - mind you! - still would give the consumer a better price/performance ratio ...).

I think they...should...its a HD6xxx....a new generation part...something we should expect...if it was a HD5x9x part then maybe i will keep my expectation down. I want to see a $199 killer part, AMD 6600GT/8800GT so to speak. AMD has been weak in $199 segment for ages.



So your saying that a new mid-range chip, can't be priced higher than the current mid-range, even if it might offer five times the performance?
If it performs HD58xx like, in the current market it can be priced HD58xx like


Can I please please please snort whatever you are taking? the HD5850 was 20% faster than a GTX285 yet something like 30% cheaper at launch.
The only reason the 4890 looked "Cheaper" compared to the 5850 is because it's price dropped a lot just before launch, even the TPU 5850 review has the HD5850 only $10 more expensive than a 4890 a week after the 5850 launch. Of course, it was a good deal more faster than a 4890.

If that disappoints, I have no idea who can satisfy you in your world. but upping the performance a lot and introducing a slew of new features without an increase in price doesn't seem like a bad deal.

I have not follow the HD5xxx parts since launch ...but IIRC..5850 was about 5-25fps faster than 4890....hovering around 10fps best case...while the 25fps peak were in few games that i guess the 4800 parts were ROP/texture limited (?)....5850 prices never dropped to must buy levels...idk...it seems to me GPU acceleration has been stuck in the rut for the past 12 months...460 GTX kinda shook it up...a little, but i never found the excitement to upgrade from ma 4870 1GB....it serves me well at 1920x1200 0-2XAA...if we are too keep expectations for the 6xxx parts low....that means we will go another 12 months of slow upgrades?
 
I think they...should...its a HD6xxx....a new generation part...something we should expect...if it was a HD5x9x part then maybe i will keep my expectation down. I want to see a $199 killer part, AMD 6600GT/8800GT so to speak. AMD has been weak in $199 segment for ages.
It's all about (a) market situation and (b) production costs.

Both factors are different now.


Lets start with (a) market situation here:

When it was launched, HD 5770 basically "competed" against GTX 260, i.e. the GT200b salvage parts. GTX 260 proved a little faster in most benchmarks, but lacked DX11. In the end, Juniper XT launched @ a price tag a little above GTX 260. And it sold like hot cakes.

Consider Barts XT now. If the recent rumors are true, it will compete against GTX 470. So why should they price it (significantly) cheaper than that? A quick search @ newegg reveals that the cheaper versions of GTX 470 ship for $299 at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised if Nvidia dropped those prices a bit in the wake of AMDs new products - but Barts XT still shouldn't ship for less than $250. Actually, given some new features and improved tesselation performance, they could price it @ $279 and you could still call it a good deal given the current market situation.


Now look at (b) production costs:

Juniper used a new, smaller production process when compared to RV770. Early yields arguably weren't that great - but Juniper still was a lot smaller (~ 2/3 of RV770), while delivering about the same performance and adding DX11 as a killer-feature. Power savings where big enough to use a simpler PCB and simpler cooling solutions.

Now consider Barts XT. It might come with some considerable perf/mm2 improvements over the "old" Evergreen architecture, but given current performance rumors, I still doubt it will be a lot smaller than Cypress - at least nowhere near the 1/3 die size savings AMD managed when going from RV770 to Juniper, i.e. from 55nm to 40nm production. Maybe they'll save ~ 20% die space this time around (which would put Barts ~ 270mm2 - still a great achievement in pushing perf/mm2 on the same process node).

In the end (and that's the most important point - a lot more important than the comparision with Cypress), Barts most certainly will be a lot bigger than Juniper. It will consume a lot more power, need a more complex PCB etc. Selling such a card @ the same price as AMDs "old" (considerably cheaper-to-make) midrange parts isn't economically feasible - and they won't do that unless Nvidias "competition" forces them to adjust their pricing (which, sadly, won't be the case for the next few month to come).


All that being said ... don't forget about Barts Pro when looking for a ~$199 "killer" part ;)
 
Sadly, while that slide indicates that ROPs have doubled over Juniper, Z-rate per clock hasn't. ROPs match HD5850 for what I guess is HD6750. This would appear to indicate that HD6750 is clocked at 725MHz, same as HD5850.

40.x texture rate indicates 14 TMUs at 725MHz = 40.6GTexels/s.

Compute Performance appears to be 1.6x TFLOPS. Divided by 725MHz and 14 indicates VLIW-5. i.e. 1120 ALU lanes for HD6750. Perhaps 1280 for HD6770?
 
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