AMD Quits Handheld Market?

[JohnH]

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On the other hand SGX is also in that sense a small form factor reduced version of the original Series5 GPU and albeit I'm not aware of the latter's exact specifications, no one could convince me either that I could expect from a SGX equivalent performance (unless of course the latter gets beefed up a lot more than the highest 20.3mm^2 @65nm core, which wouldn't fit into any SoC anymore).
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SGX is series 5 hardware, there where never any public performance claims for the series 5 architecture, so there is no fud in namig it what it is. The ATi core has been called xbox360 graphics for a mobile phone, not sure how anyone could consider this anything but fud, rose coloured glasses perhaps?

John.

 

[Lazy8s]

"Mini-Xenos" and "Xbox 360 graphics in a phone" imply different meanings.

By itself, saying something is a miniature version of something else does't make any claim as to the magnitude of performance similarity. The mini-Xenos tag was likely given mostly as a way to highlight that the handheld technology was utilizing unified shaders too, which was quite a new feature to most at the time. The label is probably a misnomer, actually, as the handheld tech should be more of an implementation/derivation of modern ATi shader architecture than a refocused console design.

"Xbox 360 graphics in a phone", however, is a claim that can be meant to (mis)lead a person's expectations.

 

[JohnH]

...
The mini-Xenos tag was likely given mostly as a way to highlight that the handheld technology was utilizing unified shaders too, which was quite a new feature to most at the time. The label is probably a misnomer, actually, as the handheld tech should be more of an implementation/derivation of modern ATi shader architecture than a refocused console design.
...

Can pretty much gaurantee that the term 'mini-Xenos' came from ATi's marketing dept, it will have been chosen for branding reasons knowing that it is associated with the xbox360. Of course you could say that 99% of all marketing is fud anyway

Still, back to the real point of the thread...

John.

 

[Jawed]

http://developer.amd.com/gpu_assets/gdc2008_ribble_maurice_TileBasedGpus.pdf

Jawed

 

[Dave Baumann]

I'd say the "mini-Xenos" tag was probably coined in these forums!

http://forum.beyond3d.com/search.php?searchid=874987

 

[JohnH]

Lol, obviously far too many marketing people arounf here <eek>

 

[3dcgi]

By itself, saying something is a miniature version of something else does't make any claim as to the magnitude of performance similarity. The mini-Xenos tag was likely given mostly as a way to highlight that the handheld technology was utilizing unified shaders too, which was quite a new feature to most at the time. The label is probably a misnomer, actually, as the handheld tech should be more of an implementation/derivation of modern ATi shader architecture than a refocused console design.

It actually is a branch of the Xenos code base and not R600 as it needs none of the bloat from DX10. Remember the object is to be very small.

 

[Ailuros]

SGX is series 5 hardware, there where never any public performance claims for the series 5 architecture, so there is no fud in namig it what it is.

I never said there's any FUD involved in that one; I still wouldn't expect to see from the currently known SGX555 biggest variant to deliver the same performance as the original GPU. Despite the vaporware S5 GPU being obviously quite a bit older than the 555, they've completely different target markets.

The ATi core has been called xbox360 graphics for a mobile phone, not sure how anyone could consider this anything but fud, rose coloured glasses perhaps?

That's a good one especially from you LOL. Jokes aside I guess you've read in that formerly quoted presentation that both SGX and Z4x0 supposedly target OGL-ES2.0. One of them targets way beyond OGL_ES2.x and I used that little "x" on purpose instead of plain 2.0 in that last interview I had with you guys, where I obviously had my blue/yellow glasses on.

Since I can also see that you call for marketing guys, albeit I am aware of the restrictions IMG sets in exposing all their cards before their right time (be it due to the company's policy or licensees demands to keep certain aspects under wraps...) at some point there will come a time where you can set the record straight when those restrictions don't apply.

 

[JohnH]

I never said there's any FUD involved in that one; I still wouldn't expect to see from the currently known SGX555 biggest variant to deliver the same performance as the original GPU. Despite the vaporware S5 GPU being obviously quite a bit older than the 555, they've completely different target markets.

Not entirely sure what you're getting here.

That's a good one especially from you LOL.

Who me

Jokes aside I guess you've read in that formerly quoted presentation that both SGX and Z4x0 supposedly target OGL-ES2.0. One of them targets way beyond OGL_ES2.x and I used that little "x" on purpose instead of plain 2.0 in that last interview I had with you guys, where I obviously had my blue/yellow glasses on.

Not sure which presentation you're refering to, afaik we have always stated that the SGX pipeline goes well beyond the requirements of ES2.0, obviously you could say that this is also just FUD until we deliver on those claims, although we'vee already done this to some extent by the very fact that we've announced Dx9/SM3.0 (actually shipping in the form of Intel Atom products) and dx10.1 capable cores...

Since I can also see that you call for marketing guys, albeit I am aware of the restrictions IMG sets in exposing all their cards before their right time (be it due to the company's policy or licensees demands to keep certain aspects under wraps...) at some point there will come a time where you can set the record straight when those restrictions don't apply.

All good things come to those who wait....

John.

 

[Karoshi]

... although we'vee already done this to some extent by the very fact that we've announced Dx9/SM3.0 (actually shipping in the form of Intel Atom products) and dx10.1 capable cores...



All good things come to those who wait....

John.

Newegg linky?

 

[JohnH]

Just search for Intel Atom...

 

[Arun]

Just search for Intel Atom...

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but as far as I can tell none of these products use SGX or any other PowerVR IP. They're based on Intel's GMA 950 core with a LOL-high wattage. They don't use Poulsbo, which *seems* reserved for MIDs/UMPCs this generation. On the other hand, with Moorestown they'll *presumably* use PowerVR IP in subnotebooks too

 

[tangey]

Intel Atom = Atom processor plus 945 chipset

Intel Centrino Atom = Atom processor + System Controller Hub (which has PowerVr SGX)

 

[tangey]

On the other hand, with Moorestown they'll *presumably* use PowerVR IP in subnotebooks too

The IMG annual report from last week had a graph which shows that IMG right throught to 2012 feel that their product portfolio will only be capable of addressing a very small percentage of the notebook market, which is in contrast to the MID and UMPC market in which they have products that they feel address the entire market.

http://www.imgtec.com/corporate/AnnualReports/IMGAnnualReport2008.pdf

Page 30

 

[JohnH]

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but as far as I can tell none of these products use SGX or any other PowerVR IP. They're based on Intel's GMA 950 core with a LOL-high wattage. They don't use Poulsbo, which *seems* reserved for MIDs/UMPCs this generation. On the other hand, with Moorestown they'll *presumably* use PowerVR IP in subnotebooks too

No bubbles there to be burst, you'll find it depends what products you look at, I think its actually atom centrino/GMA500 you need to search for to pick up the Poulsbo based stuff.

Edit: And thats shipping chips by the way, I'm not sure what the public availability is for end products...

John.

 

[Lazy8s]

SGX end product, like the Kohjinsha SC3, has been out for weeks.

 

[roninja]

IMG had a PR yesterday which I posted up on the PowerVR SGX thread....

 

[Arun]

Yes, it *is* available especially in Asia, but AFAIK there's no product on Newegg that uses it yet. That was the distinction I was trying to make, although I should have used a few more words

 

[Ailuros]

Not entirely sure what you're getting here.

Assume the canned S5 GPU made it to shelves and on time (*cough*), would it had not have a LOT more performance than a SGX555?

Today it's easy to say that besides the higher featureset, a >100MHz MBX+VGP is probably faster than the Dreamcast graphics chip, yet there's also quite a few years intermitting between those and more than one technology generation. In the above case both might belong to the same architecture family, but anyone would be very naive (IMO) to believe that a SGX555 with barely 20.3mm^2@65nm would deliver equal performance with the S5 GPU.

Who me

Oui toi

Not sure which presentation you're refering to, afaik we have always stated that the SGX pipeline goes well beyond the requirements of ES2.0, obviously you could say that this is also just FUD until we deliver on those claims, although we'vee already done this to some extent by the very fact that we've announced Dx9/SM3.0 (actually shipping in the form of Intel Atom products) and dx10.1 capable cores...

As I said I used OGL_ES2.x in the past on purpose.

All good things come to those who wait....

John.

Frankly I was hoping for the past couple of years for something higher than just UMPCs, but feel free to surprise me. A completely OT question: are you guys delivering drivers for SGX on Centrino ATOM platforms or is there a 3rd party involved?

 

[JohnH]

Assume the canned S5 GPU made it to shelves and on time (*cough*), would it had not have a LOT more performance than a SGX555?
Today it's easy to say that besides the higher featureset, a >100MHz MBX+VGP is probably faster than the Dreamcast graphics chip, yet there's also quite a few years intermitting between those and more than one technology generation. In the above case both might belong to the same architecture family, but anyone would be very naive (IMO) to believe that a SGX555 with barely 20.3mm^2@65nm would deliver equal performance with the S5 GPU.

Ok, I think I see what you mean....

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Frankly I was hoping for the past couple of years for something higher than just UMPCs, but feel free to surprise me. A completely OT question: are you guys delivering drivers for SGX on Centrino ATOM platforms or is there a 3rd party involved?

Unfortunately I can't discuss details of our customer platforms.

Cheers,
John.