*Amazon FireTV

[DieH@rd]

RUMOR: Amazon’s Android console to launch this year priced below $300

Running the Android operating system, the system will compete directly with Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo, offering the streaming and download of games, music, movies and TV content, multiple sources have told VG247.

Senior publishing sources have been meeting with Amazon for a briefing on the hardware – which currently goes by a number of different codenames – and popular Android and iOS games have been used to demo the device.

The unit being shown to publishers at this point is said to be roughly the same size as the PSone redesign, grey in colour, oblong in shape and with sharp edges. However, the pre-production unit is likely to have a full makeover before any official release.

The hardware is being created in conjunction with subsidiary Lab 126, designers of Amazon’s Kindle devices.

Amazon will target an affordable price point – we’re told below $300 in the US – in a pricing move similar to Amazon’s marketing of the Kindle Fire HD against high-end iPad hardware from Apple.

http://www.vg247.com/2014/01/28/amazons-android-console-to-launch-this-year-priced-below-300/

Mention of the "sub $300" price tells me that this wont be some small gadget in the range of Ouya [and Amazon will be more than willing to sell this at loss, as they did many times already]. It will have more complicated hardware, maybe even hard drive. We heard before that Amazon was building their 1st party game dev studios, so there will be custom software for it.

Is there any chance we will see ARM hardware that is not constricted with the battery life issues? Really high-clocked octa A-15 CPU? HSA APU that uses ARM CPU and Radeon GPU? Fully x86 AMD APU running Android VM for OS, with games having access to standard X86 hardware? We could all think countless crazy combinations.

What is the performance difference between one A15 core [2.5GHz] and one Jaguar core [1.6GHz]?

 

[liolio]

http://www.vg247.com/2014/01/28/amazons-android-console-to-launch-this-year-priced-below-300/

Mention of the "sub $300" price tells me that this wont be some small gadget in the range of Ouya [and Amazon will be more than willing to sell this at loss, as they did many times already]. It will have more complicated hardware, maybe even hard drive. We heard before that Amazon was building their 1st party game dev studios, so there will be custom software for it.

Is there any chance we will see ARM hardware that is not constricted with the battery life issues? Really high-clocked octa A-15 CPU? HSA APU that uses ARM CPU and Radeon GPU? Fully x86 AMD APU running Android VM for OS, with games having access to standard X86 hardware? We could all think countless crazy combinations.

What is the performance difference between one A15 core [2.5GHz] and one Jaguar core [1.6GHz]?

I hope they go with some ps360 ++ type of set-up for 199$.
At 2.5GHz I expect A15 to beat Jaguar cores, though not by much.
Anyway whatever it is, it is only the first generation. If Amazon launch something they will give it a couple of tries. Now they need content on top vanilla Android games, that is the real challenge.

It sort of reinforce my belief that Nvidia could give birth to a Shield sibbling in the form of a Tegra TV device. Actually a Tegra K1 (A15 version), using some gddr5 even on a 64bit bus should match and exceed the ps360 combo (again that is only V1, I expect refresh every 2 years, a tad slower than tablets and phones).
Nividia will have GameWorks, Cuda /its software at large running on its ARM SoC, they have a good shot at convincing publisher to port a couple of high profile games, actually I would think their chances are higher than Amazon ones.

Anyway for me, the take over of Android and iOS in anything "computing" is written on the wall, it is just a matter of time. Google has create an snowball effect with free Android, now there is a huge ball of software and hardware vendor that grown bigger and bigger, phones sales are slowing, I expect tablet to saturate soon to, you have wearable though I'm not convince it will do great, that let the living room TV and TV related device for software and hardware vendor alike to grow their reach.

I like to quote Cliff Bleszinski: it is going to be a blood bath.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

If "below $300" means "close to $300" then they won't have a chance against PS360. Not with any ARM SoC we know of, at least.

Maybe if it's an Android console with a 45W Kaveri using 4-channel DDR3 or 2-channel GDDR5, with lots of bundled media content from Amazon..
Then again, 80% of such a setup's 3D performance would go to waste if it uses only Android games.

 

[fehu]

A super smartphone without the phone the battery and the screen, but with twimtbp
let it happen

 

[liolio]

If "below $300" means "close to $300" then they won't have a chance against PS360. Not with any ARM SoC we know of, at least.

Wow how can you make out so much out of a as vague it gets statement?
Now aside Tegra K1 I'm not aware of a SoC that could compete with the ps360 even overclocked or backed by proper memory (not sure about the perf of the late high end Adreno). Though I don't see how such a SoC+memory would end up costing 299$ either.
Your statement is a bit broken imo, either way it aims at Android only + streaming and it's going to be cheap (299$ ain't) or it is a more serious set-up. Though Amazon can release a peace of shit and make a prayer /test market reaction for cheap.

Maybe if it's an Android console with a 45W Kaveri using 4-channel DDR3 or 2-channel GDDR5, with lots of bundled media content from Amazon..
Then again, 80% of such a setup's 3D performance would go to waste if it uses only Android games.

That has 0% chances to happen, I hope it does not happen Kaveri compatibilty with GDDR5 is not confirmed, as far as power efficiency goes the CPU still burns lot of power.

If it is something custom putting together ARM IP would do trick, I think they don't care about the ps4 and xbone, so they don't need something that powerful. I would think it is better to wait for newer SoC than to go with something custom.

For games and power going to waste, well it is a geek bias, some of the most succesful PC games are not exactely demanding and I speak about core games: WoW, LoL, Dota 2, Diablo, the sims, etc. /actually lots of the games that are exclusive to PC.

Anyway I don't expect Amazon (or anybody else for that matter) to get it right at the first try, the whole point is that living room is to see in the mid term a massive assault of do it all devices and there performances are to be more and more adequate for serious gaming. I would think that the company that might suffer the most early on is going to be Nintendo (that is why I though they needed to EOL the WiiU asap and release something more adequate before competition reaches the battleground).

 

[DieH@rd]

Hard drive and bluray player would drive the price up for ~$60-70.

 

[liolio]

Hard drive and bluray player would drive the price up for ~$60-70.

Hum there won't an optical drive that is a given. HDD I'm not convinced either but as I could see Amazon avoiding piracy though external storage they may have to include one.
HDD adds an extra but it replace flash which doesn't not come for free either.

 

[DieH@rd]

Hum there won't an optical drive that is a given.

With ~$20-30 investment into optical drive, Amazon can push sales of blurays and dvds for years. After all, that will be the sole objective of this device. To provide more sales, both for retail and digital products.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Wow how can you make out so much out of a as vague it gets statement?
Now aside Tegra K1 I'm not aware of a SoC that could compete with the ps360 even overclocked or backed by proper memory (not sure about the perf of the late high end Adreno). Though I don't see how such a SoC+memory would end up costing 299$ either.
Your statement is a bit broken imo, either way it aims at Android only + streaming and it's going to be cheap (299$ ain't) or it is a more serious set-up. Though Amazon can release a peace of shit and make a prayer /test market reaction for cheap.

You answered your own question.
$300 is a lot more than a PS3 or a X360, both with a spectacular library of AAA games in the bargain bin, matured online features and guaranteed new releases still kicking throughout 2014.
So for $300 it either packs a much faster hardware than ps360 to justify some future-proofness or it'll be a Wii U without Nintendo's 1st party games and tablet controller. No one would want it.

And as I said, there's no publicly released ARM solution that is much faster than PS360. Highish-TDP Tegra K1 with very fast memory could achieve visual parity with ps360 titles, but at the cost of large development costs - which no publisher would be willing to spend on a new console from a rookie console developer.

Now an Android console using a full 8 GCN CUs Kaveri with access to >60GB/s bandwidth and underclocked CPU cores (~2.5GHz?) could fit inside a very small case, play all Android games with no problems for the following years and even snatch some current/future titles being developed for Linux x86 (Steam OS).
Maybe they could even get Mantle working on its custom Android release, consequently being able to sell practically all Mantle titles that will be released.

That has 0% chances to happen, I hope it does not happen Kaveri compatibilty with GDDR5 is not confirmed, as far as power efficiency goes the CPU still burns lot of power.

Why would you "hope it does not happen"? How would you know the state of GDDR5 compatibility in Kaveri, and why is power/thermals a concern if you've never seen the actual console?

If it is something custom putting together ARM IP would do trick, I think they don't care about the ps4 and xbone, so they don't need something that powerful. I would think it is better to wait for newer SoC than to go with something custom.

The PS4 is selling for $400 and you're saying they "don't care" about it?? From $250-300 to $400 it's frigging direct competition. Not to mention the Wii U that's being sold for that very same price and has some of its AAA games being sold for bargain prices.

 

[AlNom]

With ~$20-30 investment into optical drive, Amazon can push sales of blurays and dvds for years.

I'm not sure that matters given that folks will already have their own players. Amazon would be far more interested in pushing Amazon Prime in the US.

 

[liolio]

You answered your own question.
$300 is a lot more than a PS3 or a X360, both with a spectacular library of AAA games in the bargain bin, matured online features and guaranteed new releases still kicking throughout 2014.
So for $300 it either packs a much faster hardware than ps360 to justify some future-proofness or it'll be a Wii U without Nintendo's 1st party games and tablet controller. No one would want it.

Hum, the rumors says below 300$, sorry but that includes a lot more options than 299$, my point was you don't know what the price will be.
My point is if it is 299$ I expect a lot hardware than in the ps360.
Amazon makes good deal on its Kindle because that is not where they are making, not unlike Google, or MSFT and Sony on consoles.
If hardware is comparable ( a tad better), it's going to cost less, like 199$ or less. Imo the cheaper the better. Impulse buys from adults, good target for kids.

And as I said, there's no publicly released ARM solution that is much faster than PS360. Highish-TDP Tegra K1 with very fast memory could achieve visual parity with ps360 titles, but at the cost of large development costs - which no publisher would be willing to spend on a new console from a rookie console developer.

Large development costs? It is as straight forward as it gets, from direct x to Open GL.
Now I explicitly stated that getting extra content is going to be the tough part, not that they need all the games, and may be not the games you are thinking about.
They are not to steal MSFT or Sony costumers, it is more insidious than that.

Now an Android console using a full 8 GCN CUs Kaveri with access to >60GB/s bandwidth and underclocked CPU cores (~2.5GHz?) could fit inside a very small case, play all Android games with no problems for the following years and even snatch some current/future titles being developed for Linux x86 (Steam OS).

What is the point, there are SteamBox, PC, and exisiting console, for that. It is still sucky by enthusisat std.

Maybe they could even get Mantle working on its custom Android release, consequently being able to sell practically all Mantle titles that will be released.

I don't think it is a good idea to bind them selves to a proprietary API. Imo by consoles standard they are to iterate pretty fast (and give up ultimately if the product get no traction with the casual and "relax" core gamers).

Why would you "hope it does not happen"? How would you know the state of GDDR5 compatibility in Kaveri, and why is power/thermals a concern if you've never seen the actual console?

Because the market for that type of product is already adressed either by the ps4 or the xbone.
And same as for the API, there are more option in the ARM real. It makes a lot more sense to not bind one self to a particular vendor.

The PS4 is selling for $400 and you're saying they "don't care" about it?? From $250-300 to $400 it's frigging direct competition. Not to mention the Wii U that's being sold for that very same price and has some of its AAA games being sold for bargain prices.

It is not, the rumor says below 300$ it is as undefined as it gets. You chose that below 300$ has to be close to 300, but that is not what is written. And it is not a direct competitor, not the games, experience and functionalities.

Anyway I think the main impact of that move from Amazon would be to trigger a move from Google if sales are not to shabby, like Kindle resulted in the launch of Nexus7. I still suspect a move from Nvidia too. ultimately Google will step in.

 

[dobwal]

If "below $300" means "close to $300" then they won't have a chance against PS360. Not with any ARM SoC we know of, at least.

Maybe if it's an Android console with a 45W Kaveri using 4-channel DDR3 or 2-channel GDDR5, with lots of bundled media content from Amazon..
Then again, 80% of such a setup's 3D performance would go to waste if it uses only Android games.

I remember some Google TV boxes coming pretty close to a $300 MRSP ($249?) and came no where close, in terms of the hardware, to even the Wii.

Yep, I doubt they would drop something like Kaveri into a box. Who would want to chance developing for Android on x86 hardware?

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Hum, the rumors says below 300$, sorry but that includes a lot more options than 299$, my point was you don't know what the price will be.
(...)
It is not, the rumor says below 300$ it is as undefined as it gets. You chose that below 300$ has to be close to 300, but that is not what is written.

In case you didn't notice, this discussion started with your quotation of my post which starts with:

If "below $300" means "close to $300" then they won't have a chance against PS360. Not with any ARM SoC we know of, at least.

So no, I didn't choose that below $300 has to be close to 300. It was you who decided to argue around that.

If hardware is comparable ( a tad better), it's going to cost less, like 199$ or less. Imo the cheaper the better. Impulse buys from adults, good target for kids.

If it's $199 for comparable hardware, then why would anyone buy an Amazon Console instead of a x360 or ps3?
Not for the games, that's for sure. Amazon media? They could do that with a Kindle Fire for less money.

Large development costs? It is as straight forward as it gets, from direct x to Open GL.

I don't think there's anything straghtforward about porting games from a multicore PowerPC/Cell at 3.2GHz to a Cortex A15.
In fact, I doubt DX to OpenGL ports are straightforward even when using the same hardware.

I don't think it is a good idea to bind them selves to a proprietary API. Imo by consoles standard they are to iterate pretty fast (and give up ultimately if the product get no traction with the casual and "relax" core gamers).

Who said anything about becoming exclusive to Mantle?
AFAIK, they couldn't even have an Android console without supporting OpenGL ES..

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Hum, the rumors says below 300$, sorry but that includes a lot more options than 299$, my point was you don't know what the price will be.

The fair assumption, though, is that if much lower than $300, the rumour would say as much. eg. If $199, although below $300 and factually correct regards the rumour, the rumour would surely say, "below $200". The only reason that comes to mind why that might not be the case is if Amazon are evaluating several options, the most expensive being $299, but they may go with a $199 option.

 

[Grall]

With ~$20-30 investment into optical drive, Amazon can push sales of blurays and dvds for years. After all, that will be the sole objective of this device. To provide more sales, both for retail and digital products.

I think - not being privvy to amazon's financials or long-term strategic thinking - that they would prefer people not buying physical discs, and instead relying on digitally DRMd streaming and/or downloads, that way they can charge again and again for the same product, while a physical disc is a one-time sale (with a probably not amazing profit margin.)

 

[Rangers]

For 300 bucks I want some serious, even PS4/XBO rivaling power...

But as a rule, I tend to think Android consoles have a LOT of potential if done right, and Amazon surely has the dollars Ouya doesn't to give it a try. I'm interested.

Kindle doesn't necessarily inspire confidence though. I wouldn't want a kindle tablet over a nexus device despite great specs/price, simply because of how Amazon has brought overbearing software.

And as I said, there's no publicly released ARM solution that is much faster than PS360. Highish-TDP Tegra K1 with very fast memory could achieve visual parity with ps360 titles

Tegra K1 is WELL above PS360 as is. Anand has some benches showing a Qualcomm s800 or whatever it's called is basically equalish to a 7900GTX, which is in turn equalish to RSX. And we can be sure K1 will destroy last gen parts, obviously (as will Qualcomm's and power VR's next, no need to get hung up on K1 specifically)

 

[RudeCurve]

If they get exclusive AAA content then it might be worth checking out, but if it's just an Android console with ports of PS360 games I don't think it will do as well as MS/SONY/Nintendo consoles.

 

[Rangers]

The more I think about it, the more excited I am. A new console entrant? Finally? Maybe we'd have thought Apple or Samsung, not Amazon!

Even if it does have the negative "Android" connotations.

Also I was reminded on GAF that Amazon has been hiring devs for a while, so they will be funding exclusive games, how triple A, I dont know.

Also serves me right not reading the link

VG247 understands that the Android console was due to launch last year but was delayed at the last minute and is now expected in 2014.

According to this TechCrunch report the console will be powered by Qualcomm’s Snapdragon processors. Last year Gamasutra suggested Amazon had been courting US developers and suggesting they add controller support to future tablet games.

So, snapdragon, and "2014". Sadly, always bet on things taking as long as possible in videogaming, so I hope it's not late 2014.

Looks like maybe it would run on the upcoming Adreno 420 GPU then. Which is said to be 40% faster than 330.

Would be no competition for XBO/PS4, in fact depending, might trade blows with PS360 performance wise, which in turn would seem like a tough sell at 300.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Tegra K1 is WELL above PS360 as is. Anand has some benches showing a Qualcomm s800 or whatever it's called is basically equalish to a 7900GTX, which is in turn equalish to RSX. And we can be sure K1 will destroy last gen parts, obviously (as will Qualcomm's and power VR's next, no need to get hung up on K1 specifically)

Maybe, but the PS3 isn't only a 7900GT. It's a 7900GT + Cell + 8 years of developer dedication on low-level optimizations.

 

[patsu]

I'm not sure that matters given that folks will already have their own players. Amazon would be far more interested in pushing Amazon Prime in the US.

Yeah... I half expect it to evolve into a Roku + home shopping channel.

I don't see it competing with the Xbox One and PS4.

Probably for the laggards, buying PS3 and 360, plus bargain bin titles.