Age of subsidizing is over?

I read a news some days ago stating (their was no source) that MS announced that out of 25 millions live accounts 50% were gold accounts. That's 12.5 millions subscription fees vs a 40 millions user base.
If the situation stay the same gold members will have to subsidize a lot for the other "next box" owners.

I wonder if the gaming market would accept something like an smart phone/tablet business model where you can buy the device alone for >400€, or a lot less if you subscribe to an internet service.
Basically Ms/Sony would no longer act as hardware vendors but services providers. If Ms numbers are any clue (roughly a quarter of the user base) it's quiet a risky bet, they have to offer a hell of a machine and more services (and free ones) than live has to offer now.
 
I think you're overestimating how marketable this is today. We're a long way from the bit wars.
If everyone tries to be Nintendo that only means there is a large very profitable niche of gamers to be lapped up by a remaining champion of traditional gaming. Hell I hope Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo all low ball it ... maybe then Valve will finally get off it's ass and do it right (although the fact they got in bed with Apple shows them to be rather clueless ... Apple is the new Microsoft, it's only interested in helping them right over the edge of a cliff and taking over their business, if the PC market was a secure winner they could afford to throw Apple some bones but with it actually being vulnerable they are digging their own grave).
 
Multiplatform games will continue to aim for relative parity. If publishers aren't interested in it today, why would they be tomorrow? They don't have much to gain there - if anything they've got for differences in the past years it was bad press and fanboy rage.

And honestly, what's there to differentiate?
Adding more RAM is useless IMHO, it'll cause longer load times to fill up more space and noone's going to build more detailed assets for the first few years. Even today, 5 years into the current generation, only a few games do stuff like 1/2 res normal maps for the console versions compared to the PC.
CPU and GPU power? There's a sweet spot with transistor counts when you're planning 6 years down the road with multiple die shrinks and expected yields. Not much room to push more performance out of the similar die sizes. And once again, even if there's some advantage, it's either going to be completely unutilized, or most customers won't notice it anyway.

Wifi, optical/flash storage and other stuff are going to be pretty close as well. BR is a safe bet for PS4 and I don't see Microsoft going any other way either, digital distribution will be a more significant option but you need some kind of physical media and there really aren't better alternatives.

The hardware is going to be pretty close and everyone's going to play safe with it. Industrial espionage is advanced enough to have a good idea about the competition and the risks and costs of a significant advantage are just not worth it.
I'll repeat: investing in some other feature, either online or I/O or such, is offering far better returns for the money then more memory or faster processors.
Quite interesting.... Anyway, what I think Shifty meant is that while subsidizing superb powerful hardware won't be as popular as it was, there's a LOT of room for improvements.

I would be happy to see most games running at 60 fps, and 1080p -or close to it- resolutions with some anti-aliasing. 720p is also fine but it would need more AA.

With fabrication processes about 28nm and below it I don't see why next generation consoles can't be orders of magnitude more capable than current ones.

More RAM doesn't hurt also, for those companies interested in using it. If not for graphics, for better sound quality, more effects happening on the screen, etc. GT5 comes to mind.

Do you think 2GB would be just too much or more than enough?

Companies like Crytek think that current consoles are done, giving a clear signal to its respective designers to get ready for a different technology in a few years. I'm pretty happy with current gen consoles but I think by 2015 they will be well out of phase.

I'd like to see again, someday, a game positively surprising me like Oblivion did back in 2006.

I didn't think a game like that would be possible on consoles, but when I saw the fields, the tall green grass, the wood -filled with plenty of flowers and animals-, the villages and mountains in the distance covered with evergreens, and knowing that if you wanted to, you could get there, it was something really special. Even people who don't play many games except sports and stuff liked it.

I remember a guy telling me that the music and the game were beautiful, and my brother once told me: "Omg, that was pretty authentic" (after confronting a wolf that tried to kill my character in the mountains, he died and fallen down the mountain in a very realistic manner, because the game had great physics). Before that this wasn't possible.

It was like: "Wow, graphics like this can flash-freeze anything".

That wouldn't be possible on the GC, Xbox, PS2 generation. I don't expect that kind of jump this time around but some evolution is always nice.

I think it's about doing more things, not just more power not used smartly for the sake of it.

Oblivion did HDR+AA back in 2006, for instance, but it seems to me it never happened again since then. I love HDR but lately developers use other effects that don't allow GPUs combine HDR with other techniques.

Regarding faster processors, when next generation consoles are out -2014, 2015, hopefully- pretty decent processors will be cheap enough to be feasible.
Assen will have to develop his next gen game on a dual core Atom. And it better not look like crap! LOL!
XDDDD I can imagine making him sick and, as a developer, he would never touch such a product. But who knows, maybe he likes software rendering....

On a different not, a CPU well suited to consoles can be pretty interesting next gen. I remember Carmack saying that software rendering is important in the future.

Keep searching is the motto, the right processor is somewhere out there.
 
Would it be possible to use a SPU as a flash memory controller? By next-gen, I don't think there'll be a need to disable one for yield reasons, and by using a SPU controlled 24-32 GB of cheap flash memory, they could at least match the speeds of 5400rpm notebook drives?
 
there's a LOT of room for improvements.

No one argues with that. The point is that there won't be significant differences between the main competitors, like twice the amount of RAM, 50% more cores or such. It is not worth to pay the extra manufacturing cost in every single console when the advantage doesn't get utilized in 90% of the games.
Spending some extra money on a unique feature that you only have to pay for once is a much better investment.

With fabrication processes about 28nm and below it I don't see why next generation consoles can't be orders of magnitude more capable than current ones.

They'll certainly be, everyone agrees with that.

Do you think 2GB would be just too much or more than enough?

It is unlikely that we would get any faster optical drives. Current consoles spend 30-60 seconds to load data into 512MB (so it's actually only 200-300MB worth of assets) and even for 2GB it'd take 3-4 times as long, which is completely unacceptable. 4GB is unnecessary IMHO, there should be proper software solutions like virtual texturing and streaming to make 2 gigs enough.

Hard drive caching and installation are valid options, but a HDD costs a lot, so the base system should be able to work without it.
 
I can't fathom why a console maker doesn't try subsidizing middleware:

1. Would attract developers and speed their time to market, giving you the SW library win.

2. Developers would be much more inclined to use exotic HW features, because they'd have most of the work done for them. Also, you could conceal a lot of the underlying wackiness of the design (I'm looking at you Sony).

3. More consistent quality and performance across games library.

4. Unlike subsidizing HW manufacture, it's a one-time expense.

Now, one might argue that an engine needs to be tailored to the structure of a game, and one might be right. Nonetheless, thanks to UE3 this generation has seen hundreds of variations of Gears of War released, and they're still selling. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that MS didn't buy Epic early on in this gen (although Epic may be valued a lot higher than I imagine).
 
I think it's shifted, because the market has. The core market still is influenced I'm sure, in the same way people look at PCs and CE devices with "more=better" attitudes, faiing to recognise how they use of the hardware and how non-numerical features like build quality and the wider range of LCD response times rather than cherry-picked best cases advertised change the offering resulting in devices with lower numbers being better choices

People pay more for Macs for lesser hardware and even in TVs there is a shift away from differentiating on hardware features in favor of software. I think where hardware features have been emphasized is in areas where that is the primary or sole differentiator. Broadly it's been my experience that when presented with technical features most consumers just get confused. Show them what something can DO, though, and that will get them interested. In that context, does it really matter whether that function is enabled by an extra Teraflop or an extra web service?
 
I can't fathom why a console maker doesn't try subsidizing middleware:

1. Would attract developers and speed their time to market, giving you the SW library win.

2. Developers would be much more inclined to use exotic HW features, because they'd have most of the work done for them. Also, you could conceal a lot of the underlying wackiness of the design (I'm looking at you Sony).

3. More consistent quality and performance across games library.

4. Unlike subsidizing HW manufacture, it's a one-time expense.

Now, one might argue that an engine needs to be tailored to the structure of a game, and one might be right. Nonetheless, thanks to UE3 this generation has seen hundreds of variations of Gears of War released, and they're still selling. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that MS didn't buy Epic early on in this gen (although Epic may be valued a lot higher than I imagine).

I'm pretty sure that this is exactly what Sony's Phyre Engine (sp?) does.
 
It is unlikely that we would get any faster optical drives.

:???:

They currently have 8x BR drives for sale at less than $100 retail...

As far as how to fill that ram, I think the detail level from the artist perspective will be mostly the same as it is now.

Further detail could be added with procedural gen for minute detail that has no consequence. These details being generated at runtime would have no affect on loadtimes.

4x increase in drive speed and 8x increase in storage is what I'm expecting.
 
I'm pretty sure that this is exactly what Sony's Phyre Engine (sp?) does.

It sounds quite good, seems they may have been late to market though, and they definitely didn't pimp it enough:

"Holman, SCEE’s VP of research and development. 'You can see that we’re a technology team, not a marketing team. It was completely lost in the SDK.'"

Is there a culture among console devs that demands they do everything from the ground up? Personally, the first thing I do with an SDK is comb it for any code or high-level interfaces that will allow me to be more lazy, and if performance become an issue, refactor later. But in general, I figure they know the metal better than I ever will anyway.
 
Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that MS didn't buy Epic early on in this gen (although Epic may be valued a lot higher than I imagine).

They're more profitable this way, a buyout would bring them a single big income, this way they're able to make a lot of money for many years. They even joked at some time about the price being a billion dollars or so, as I recall...


Agree about the importance of middleware, another way to spend money with better returns then to finance losses on hardware.
 
Something I just thought of and posted in the predict nextgen thread:

me said:
One interesting side effect of the notion of a non-subsidized xb720 console (as being discussed for the steambox):

MS could ship windows for it

I think this reason alone is enough for Sony to want to subsidize to force MS' hand to do the same to keep technical parity.

If they both go for break-even at launch and profit after, I see MS taking advantage and shipping windows for it. As an add-on of course.

MS peripheral sales for wireless kb/mouse combos would be nice and the media center work would be put to good use as well.

Matter of fact, that opens the door to licensing the tech and letting other hw builders slug it out.

Also opens the door for selling the tech into cable boxes.



Long story short, a profitable hardware model at launch opens a whole can of worms that I doubt Sony wants to deal with.
 
They're more profitable this way, a buyout would bring them a single big income, this way they're able to make a lot of money for many years. They even joked at some time about the price being a billion dollars or so, as I recall...

Indeed, like Insomniac, I don't think Epic have ever given the impression that they would like to be a subsidiary of a first party publisher. I think being third party suits them better because they have UE to sell to other developers which I expect MS would not allow, and they can strike deals for multiplat games and still get nice big moneyhats for Gears from MS. It is a win-win tbh!
 
I can't fathom why a console maker doesn't try subsidizing middleware:

1. Would attract developers and speed their time to market, giving you the SW library win.

2. Developers would be much more inclined to use exotic HW features, because they'd have most of the work done for them. Also, you could conceal a lot of the underlying wackiness of the design (I'm looking at you Sony).

3. More consistent quality and performance across games library.

4. Unlike subsidizing HW manufacture, it's a one-time expense.

Now, one might argue that an engine needs to be tailored to the structure of a game, and one might be right. Nonetheless, thanks to UE3 this generation has seen hundreds of variations of Gears of War released, and they're still selling. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that MS didn't buy Epic early on in this gen (although Epic may be valued a lot higher than I imagine).


I was thinking the same actually, what better when giving out the hardware to the developers an engine comes with it, albeit maybe an engine that it very tweakable to tune to your needs but still an engine. Especially considering MS is a sofware company and should be able to do that.

One of the reason i though of is of course cost, it after would cost them to do it, but they could get some of the by raising a bit the cost of their kits or something. But most likely maybe it is not to piss of companies like Epic that sell their engines on the platform and therefore alienate them...
 
I don't disagree that Epic has carved a very nice little niche for themselves, I was more thinking along the lines of MS making them an offer they can't refuse :devilish:. I tend to think the only reason anyone would or has charged for devkits is to keep inde devs from wasting their time--a paradigm which the console makers are gradually realizing is insane. I think Sony's only lately realized success with PhyreEngine will convince them to push it's successor out much earlier and more in the foreground. Ideally they could target all their HW platforms, PSP2 and PS phone(?) as well, although that might be unwieldy.
 
An offer that Epic couldn't refuse would be similar to bringing out piles of cash to the lawn in front of MS and lighting them up with a flamethrower. In other words a waste of resources - the Xbox couldn't possibly profit enough from such a deal because neither Epic nor their tech is that good.

Also consider that multiplatform and PS3 business is a part of Epic's price, but MS could not reap the profits from that part of the investment. It's just too much money and it isn't worth it.
 
Okay, I think you're probably right. I was sort of looking at it that in the way that all the things that make UE3's admittedly unimpressive tech so superficially attractive to their licensees would be transferred to MS if they bought it. The parallel, at least to my mind, being Bungie and Halo. The problem being that the cost of buying Bungie is probably nowhere near comparable to that of buying Epic (even in 05/06), nor would they recoup anything if they gave away UE3, as I was suggesting. As an aside, UE3 might be attractive for it's tools pipeline and ease of use rather than end-user experience. There must be some reason devs are shelling out $1M a pop (AFAIR).

Edit: I hope that second sentence is comprehensible, I'm afraid the grammar of it is just beyond saving.
 
UE3 is neither unimpressive nor superficial. It is what it is, the premiere available 3rd party multiplatform engine available for sale to everyone.

There may be some in company multiplatform engines that perform better in certain aspects or have features UE3 may or may not be lacking, but there aren't any competitors in the open market that are as accomplished or tested.

CryEngine may someday challenge and supplant it (I'm sure CryTek are trying hard) but it hasn't yet.

I realize it's somewhat fashionable on the net to bash UE3, but honestly it does as well as it does because it happens to be the best option for a purchaseable multiplatform engine which is relatively easy to develope on. No easy accomplishment.

Regards,
SB
 
No one argues with that. The point is that there won't be significant differences between the main competitors, like twice the amount of RAM, 50% more cores or such. It is not worth to pay the extra manufacturing cost in every single console when the advantage doesn't get utilized in 90% of the games.
Spending some extra money on a unique feature that you only have to pay for once is a much better investment.



They'll certainly be, everyone agrees with that.



It is unlikely that we would get any faster optical drives. Current consoles spend 30-60 seconds to load data into 512MB (so it's actually only 200-300MB worth of assets) and even for 2GB it'd take 3-4 times as long, which is completely unacceptable. 4GB is unnecessary IMHO, there should be proper software solutions like virtual texturing and streaming to make 2 gigs enough.

Hard drive caching and installation are valid options, but a HDD costs a lot, so the base system should be able to work without it.

You are ignoring installed (HDD) games as well as in-game transitions. I don't have a list handy, but many games in this gen use the HDD for swapping data, as an extension of RAM. Again, it especially affects sandbox RPGs like Oblivion and DA:O which suffer from terribly long in-game transitions.

In the long run, while playing a game, more memory means less need to reload data from either the disc or the HDD.

The effective 256M of main RAM isn't matching the rest of the HW in the 360 or the PS3.
 
DigitalFoundry's test has proven that a cheap 16GB USB pendrive is prefectly capable of replacing the HDD. If it becomes cheap enough - certainly cheaper than an HDD - then players can use the flash memory for temp installs and caches. But it won't be enough to significantly speed up load times and more then 2GB of main memory would take forever to fill.
 
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