A public apology to Brian Burke

[Reverend]

I think some are missing the point.

Please re-read (in this thread earlier) what BB told me in my old interview with him.

Obviously, if your company's hardware is top o'the heap, there is very little chance that a PR personnel would "need to lie".

It's when your company's products are losing to the competition that the PR department becomes even more important. From that particular company's perspective of course.

I've been in this industry a long time and throughout the years I have managed to keep my relationship with a person like BB quite healthy. For sure we have had heated email exchanges over the years (either when he was with 3dfx or with NVIDIA). We have mutual respect for what we do (i.e. our jobs... well, he has a job with NVIDIA whereas I don't really have a "job" with B3D) and we know EXACTLY why we have those heated arguments.... and can still exchange Christmas cards (hey, anyone here got a NVIDIA e-Xmas-card?).

 

[Hanners]

Personally I would say PR is not so much to do with lying, but all about twisting the truth to fit your own agenda. The danger there (as we have seen in the past) is that to twist the truth, you have to have a very good understanding of what the truth is in the first place. If you get that wrong, your attempts to manipulate the truth into something palatable for your company ends up as lies.

Having said that, I'm sure some PR people do lie about things on a regular basis, but I imagine the majority don't lie outright - At least not with the deliberate intention of doing so.

 

[Nite_Hawk]

PR people have a rough life. I don't think I'd want to do it. There is a really fine line between marketing a product, and intentionally leading them to believe something that is not true. You do not necessarily need to "lie" to do this, but the the result can end up being the same.

This gets into some sticky issues. If a company releases a bad product and knows that it is bad, what should they do with it? Does it make sense to push it really heavily and downplay the problems? Should they be up front about its weaknesses, focus on its strenths, and try to market it fairly? Should they perhaps simply not say much of anything at all about it and hope people forget it ever happened once the next version of the product is released? Really, it probably depends on the product and the market, but the first approach is the one that you have to be careful with.

Lieing is a dangerous trap for a PR person. Its the old saying that once you start lieing, you have to keep coming up with more and more lies to cover the first. This is especially true for anyone who is making public announcements or statements on behalf of a company. Does it matter? In some ways perhaps not. Most of the public likely is not going to know or care that you are lieing. They may know that the company lies in general, but not that a specific claim or statement is one.

The effects of lieing on a company are somewhat subtle if the company is caught. If the company is not thought to be the leader in the field, they will not be as hurt by it. Sure there will be people that will be unhappy, but for a company in their position it is more logical (though no more moral) that it would happen. For a company that is thought to be the leader, the effects are more damning. It shows that a competing product is good enough that they would resort to lieing to appear better. People instinctively will ask themselves "why did they lie?" At the very least, it will make the position of the market leader a lot less solid.

So should a PR person lie? Well, simply from a logical perspective it depends on how much the public's perception of the company being a market leader matters. Less importantly, it also matters how much of an image as a liar you care your company to have (Though long term you could probably fix it sufficiently by not lieing for a while). Morally, a company shouldn't lie simply because it is a disservice to the customers. Though the company obviously has a responsibility to its stockholders, the goals of the company should be to produce good services, not produce wealth for its investors.

Nite_Hawk

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

It's a PR persons job to lie, that's what they get paid for. They have been hired to talk out of their ass.

Would you lie if nvidia offered you a PR job?

Lying is NOT the way to do business. And it is illegal (good luck proving this tho).

If nVidia offered me a PR job I wouldn't last 10 minutes without Jen Hsun pissing at me for not doing my "properly" regardless of how much I would get paid.
I use the word "properly" very loosely. Telling lies is obviously not the way to go regardless of the circumstances.

 

[ByteMe]

If nVidia offered me a PR job I wouldn't last 10 minutes without Jen Hsun pissing at me for not doing my "properly" regardless of how much I would get paid.
I use the word "properly" very loosely. Telling lies is obviously not the way to go regardless of the circumstances.

Liar!

 

[Tahir2]

A smart PR person is invisible.

A smart person will ALWAYS take everything a PR person says with a grain of salt. You don't seriously take BB or any PR manager from any company (Ati, Matrox, nV, etc...) seriously, do you? I certainly hope not.

It's a PR persons job to lie, that's what they get paid for. They have been hired to talk out of their ass.

I think you misunderstood what I said.

Reverend for example agrees with your view that a PR person is bound to lie by definition of his job. I do not believe this is true.

Do you think for instance ATI do not have PR?
What is their PR person doing and who is he?
You can name NVIDIA's PR personnel, Dave Perez and Brian Burke... along with Vanessa (don't know if she still works there).

Can you name ATI's PR personnel? I can, they are OpenGL Guy, Dio, SirEric, Catalyst Maker (Terry Makedon).

They do more PR for ATI than ATI (invisible) PR personnel.

Does this make any sense?

P.S. I am doing PR and advertising myself at the moment, and it really is a very, very hard job. And no, I don't go about lying to everyone I meet.

 

[Clootie]

... along with Vanessa (don't know if she still works there).

Diane Vanesse - former Matrox Video PR person?

Can you name ATI's PR personnel? I can, they are OpenGL Guy, Dio, SirEric, Catalyst Maker (Terry Makedon).

This way Sim Dietrich, Cem Cebenoyan, Doug Rogers along with others can be counted as PR persons too?

 

[Tahir2]

I believe Diane Vanesse moved from Matrox to NVIDIA.
Had an email exchange with her where one of her colleagues accidentally CC'd me the exchange whilst she was at Matrox.

I wasn't impressed by what she wrote about me...even if it was a pretty clever word play. Does she still work at NVIDIA?

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

I believe Diane Vanesse moved from Matrox to NVIDIA.
Had an email exchange with her where one of her colleagues accidentally CC'd me the exchange whilst she was at Matrox.

I wasn't impressed by what she wrote about me...even if it was a pretty clever word play. Does she still work at NVIDIA?

If I may ask, what did she write about you?

 

[Tahir2]

It was nowt really

My nick used to be Invisible Angel and she called me Visible Devil instead to her colleague..

maybe she fancied me?

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

It was nowt really

My nick used to be Invisible Angel and she called me Visible Devil instead to her colleague..

maybe she fancied me?

HAHAHA! Sounds like she done it on purpose.
Invisible = Visible
Angel = Devil

All opposites. She has the hots for you baby.

 

[nelg]

A smart PR person is invisible.

IMHO a good PR person steers the conversation to a products strengths and away from its weaknesses. As witnessed by recent history lying has a way of coming back to bite you in the ass.

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

nelg, that leaves open a lot of funny things.
Silly but funny example:

It's the year 3067AD...

BB = Brian Burke
JC = John Carmack

BB: "The NVx supports 2048bpp"
JC: "It still doesn't support MRT"
BB: "But we have 2048bpp"
JC: "Look, I can't use MRT on the NVx because it has no support and it doesn't work"
BB: "But we now have true trilinear filtering"
JC: "That's beside the point, I'm adding MRT to Doom 32432 and if you don't add the feature to your current hardware it will look like a joke"
BB: "Did I mention that we have true trilinear filtering?"

 

[sireric]

A smart PR person is invisible.

A smart person will ALWAYS take everything a PR person says with a grain of salt. You don't seriously take BB or any PR manager from any company (Ati, Matrox, nV, etc...) seriously, do you? I certainly hope not.

It's a PR persons job to lie, that's what they get paid for. They have been hired to talk out of their ass.

I think you misunderstood what I said.

Reverend for example agrees with your view that a PR person is bound to lie by definition of his job. I do not believe this is true.

Do you think for instance ATI do not have PR?
What is their PR person doing and who is he?
You can name NVIDIA's PR personnel, Dave Perez and Brian Burke... along with Vanessa (don't know if she still works there).

Can you name ATI's PR personnel? I can, they are OpenGL Guy, Dio, SirEric, Catalyst Maker (Terry Makedon).

They do more PR for ATI than ATI (invisible) PR personnel.

Does this make any sense?

P.S. I am doing PR and advertising myself at the moment, and it really is a very, very hard job. And no, I don't go about lying to everyone I meet.

Not sure I fully follow your argument here, but OpenGL Guy, Dio and myself are not PR. Engineering, in fact. That does not prevent us from advocating our products/company, but that is not "our role". We really do back our words with knowledge, and we don't try to lie or fool anyone.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Not sure I fully follow your argument here, but OpenGL Guy, Dio and myself are not PR. Engineering, in fact. That does not prevent us from advocating our products/company, but that is not "our role". We really do back our words with knowledge, and we don't try to lie or fool anyone.

I think Tahir is saying that all your paticipation in the general community and the information you impart does more good PR for ATI than any official PR person. It's also in very stark contrast to Nvidia where we just get the PR people spewing BS, and all the engineering people who actually know what they are talking about are kept locked behind closed door under threat of termination if they talk to the public.

 

[sireric]

I think Tahir is saying that all your paticipation in the general community and the information you impart does more good PR for ATI than any official PR person. It's also in very stark contrast to Nvidia where we just get the PR people spewing BS, and all the engineering people who actually know what they are talking about are kept locked behind closed door under threat of termination if they talk to the public.

That's what I thought he was trying to say. Just wanted to clear things up. Anytime I see "PR" and my name next to each other, I get chills and my ears start getting longer (Sorry Terry/Chris & Co).

 

[Tahir2]

Dont worry sireric I didnt mean you guys were satan incarnate.
BZB's explanation is spot on.

 

[Arun]

It's also in very stark contrast to Nvidia where we just get the PR people spewing BS, and all the engineering people who actually know what they are talking about are kept locked behind closed door under threat of termination if they talk to the public.

Just thought I'd comment a little bit further on that issue.
First of all, this policy isn't restricted to engineers. All NVIDIA personnel theorically has to obey this rule. IIRC, it's written in a stockholder's agreement; I'm not sure if all NVIDIA employees get stock even if they're new - and if they don't, I'm not sure if they're not still required to obey this contract.

Being an illogical fineprint in a minor contract, I always assumed NVIDIA didn't take it seriously. They do seem to however. I do not believe they givs threats of termination just for that though; it's more of a thing they add to your list of unacceptable behaviours in case they want you fired.

So, if you gave some extremely proprietary info to an ATI engineer friend, and you also post on forums in a completely innoffensive way... Well, both will be used against you. The first one is just an example BTW, no idea how bad that would be or if it happens much

I don't think anyone ever was terminated just for posting on public forums. Although I assume that if you posted a LOT on them, and after being warnied by your superiors, refused to stop... Then it might be a different story. Not that it'd be that likely to happen, anyway.


Uttar

 

[Dio]

So, if you gave some extremely proprietary info to an ATI engineer friend, and you also post on forums in a completely innoffensive way... Well, both will be used against you.

I have a good friend who works for nvidia. We certainly don't meet up quite as often as we used to and there is a strict 'no shop' rule, but it doesn't stop us going for the odd curry.

 

[Magnum PI]

excuse my ignorance of the english language, but what is a 'no shop' policy ?