1946 Time-Life article on post-WW2 European reconstruction
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Finished. I will stick with my first comment but add the populace to those that are to quick to lay blame at the feet of others. There is no quick way to establish normalcy after such events. The unfortunate reality is that it takes time to establish an infrastructure that is able to meet even basic human needs. But when you or your family and countrymen are suffering and dying you care not for such realities only for and end to the misery.
Good article and I suppose meant as a comparison to Iraq. Im not sure the Iraqi experience will be the same as in Europe but the bright side of things in Iraq are looking better all the time. The economy there is taking off big time.
Ive no doubt the Iraqis will be as shrewed in business as their Kuwaiti cousins especially after the expected spring election. But to mitigate the security problem the US should rehabilitate most of the Iraqi army. They need new uniforms and some basic retraining in how to properly deal with the populace in a democratic society but it shouldnt take years to do that. One we have 200 000 iraqi soldiers in the streets the US army should largely withdraw to isolated bases. I think that will be doable by next summer. Cathcing Saddam could accelerate that eta.
I think the clash of civs issue is receding leaving only the final intelligence as to the extent of the Iraqi wmd program to be investigated.
One of my more obvious posts... this is all pretty well covered in current articles on Iraq...
The only mistake Ive seen so far was the ruling council's decision to privatise everything but the kitchen sink (sink = oil). Something that should have waited for after an election. It certainly cant help but motivate those anti us elements in Iraq when that came about a few weeks ago.
Ive no doubt the Iraqis will be as shrewed in business as their Kuwaiti cousins especially after the expected spring election. But to mitigate the security problem the US should rehabilitate most of the Iraqi army. They need new uniforms and some basic retraining in how to properly deal with the populace in a democratic society but it shouldnt take years to do that. One we have 200 000 iraqi soldiers in the streets the US army should largely withdraw to isolated bases. I think that will be doable by next summer. Cathcing Saddam could accelerate that eta.
I think the clash of civs issue is receding leaving only the final intelligence as to the extent of the Iraqi wmd program to be investigated.
One of my more obvious posts... this is all pretty well covered in current articles on Iraq...
The only mistake Ive seen so far was the ruling council's decision to privatise everything but the kitchen sink (sink = oil). Something that should have waited for after an election. It certainly cant help but motivate those anti us elements in Iraq when that came about a few weeks ago.
akira888 said:L233 said:
You have to be kidding me. Please tell me this didn't just happen.
Posting an inflammatory one-liner with no argumentation or further explanation is trolling. Personally, I fail the read anything to that extend in that article so what's Byteme's point other than provocation?
Xmas said:
Good. The next question is should they USA "fix" the problems? I believe so, even as much as we (I) might hate it. You could call it a moral responsibility.... or just common sense. It would be much "cheaper" to step in and "fix" these problems than let them fester for many years. Now, I just wish we knew the "fix" for the middle east (Iraq a start?).
L233 said:akira888 said:L233 said:
You have to be kidding me. Please tell me this didn't just happen.
Posting an inflammatory one-liner with no argumentation or further explanation is trolling. Personally, I fail the read anything to that extend in that article so what's Byteme's point other than provocation?
Did you read the article? It sounded very much like the media today concerning Iraq. I made the observation that europe is behaving the much the same way now as back then and once again they are wrong. Are you european? Is this your way of pushing off the topic to something else?
What strikes people as strange is the pot-to-kettleness of you calling someone else a troll.L233 said:akira888 said:L233 said:
You have to be kidding me. Please tell me this didn't just happen.
Posting an inflammatory one-liner with no argumentation or further explanation is trolling. Personally, I fail the read anything to that extend in that article so what's Byteme's point other than provocation?
WhiningKhan
Regular
It's amazing how much cultural and political background affects in what one sees in an article.
"Europe" is behaving? "USA" must fix everything? To me, the main message of this article was exactly opposite to this kind of thinking. The atrocities hit the individual human beings in the end, not "Europe" or "USA". However, it is inevitable that people form their opinions of different groups by what they see in the representatives of the group, and what they hear about the doings of such group.
People are not that that different, ultimately. The nationality of the casualties of war does not make a difference in the resulting bitterness of the suffering party. What nelg wrote describes my understanding of this article to the point.
"Europe" is behaving? "USA" must fix everything? To me, the main message of this article was exactly opposite to this kind of thinking. The atrocities hit the individual human beings in the end, not "Europe" or "USA". However, it is inevitable that people form their opinions of different groups by what they see in the representatives of the group, and what they hear about the doings of such group.
People are not that that different, ultimately. The nationality of the casualties of war does not make a difference in the resulting bitterness of the suffering party. What nelg wrote describes my understanding of this article to the point.
Re: 1946 Time-Life article on post-WW2 European reconstructi
http://www.warblogging.com/archives/000720.php
http://www.hongpong.com/story/2003/9/2/203135/1409
Sorry if the two stories overlap quite a bit. I just got them from 5 minutes of googling.
http://www.warblogging.com/archives/000720.php
http://www.hongpong.com/story/2003/9/2/203135/1409
Sorry if the two stories overlap quite a bit. I just got them from 5 minutes of googling.
Not that I could find anything to the contrary, but that is deeply suspicious.
Looking further, I found the site they linked to here:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2087768/
As well as the original source of the "no casualties in Post-War Germany" link:
http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1753/
You'll probably notice that it says that there WERE in fact 43 "post-war" deaths in Somalia, 30 in Afghanistan, and 4 in Haiti. Somalia is an unfair example because 1) the entire operation was "post-war", thus "Black Hawk Down" and other incidents were included in this total, and 2) because it can by no stretch of the imagination can be called a success. I've said before that Afghanistan is basically another situation like Iraq, although there are far fewer troops present, (read: targets for militants). And Haiti, although arguably milder than the other two listed, is still pretty much a mess.
So yeah, it seems as though it holds water after all.
Edit: I'm guessing there weren't many post-war deaths in Panama or Grenada either.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2087768/
As well as the original source of the "no casualties in Post-War Germany" link:
http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1753/
You'll probably notice that it says that there WERE in fact 43 "post-war" deaths in Somalia, 30 in Afghanistan, and 4 in Haiti. Somalia is an unfair example because 1) the entire operation was "post-war", thus "Black Hawk Down" and other incidents were included in this total, and 2) because it can by no stretch of the imagination can be called a success. I've said before that Afghanistan is basically another situation like Iraq, although there are far fewer troops present, (read: targets for militants). And Haiti, although arguably milder than the other two listed, is still pretty much a mess.
So yeah, it seems as though it holds water after all.
Edit: I'm guessing there weren't many post-war deaths in Panama or Grenada either.
here is an interesting article
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/2003_10_01_healingiraq_archive.html#23106656106711032484
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/2003_10_01_healingiraq_archive.html#23106656106711032484
Clashman are you suggesting that because there are higher post war casualties in iraqi, murders committed by seemingly unknown assailants that this opperation is a complete failure? A bit premature don't you think?
I am curious, do you have what you may feel is are better solutions (pre and post war) to the problems faced in Iraq?
I am curious, do you have what you may feel is are better solutions (pre and post war) to the problems faced in Iraq?
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