1080P, what's the meaning?

[mr_arcam]

Why are people so obsessed with trying to play down the PS3 1080P support. Its strangely akin to the 16bit vs 32bit days. Sure at the start the difference was not as noticeable as there was no that much blending or alpha effects.

Looking forward we can see the industry is moving to 1080P displays, and so far only one console is setup to meet this. Its strange how in the PC space people are very conscience of resolution, but in the console world everyone seems to have signed off as 720P being the perfect resolution and any increase would be pointless. It seems very short sighted and to be honest I think its principally motivated by peoples allegiance to their console of choice. I’m not saying that this is the case for everyone, maybe the rest just have not had sufficient experience to really make an educated judgment on the issue.

All this talk about having to downgrade to support 1080P is nonsense. It’s like saying developers who use AA, antistrophic filtering or post image processing or (insert the effect) are wasting resources. Let the bleeding developers make the decision how they balance performance. Its plain ignorant to say 1080P is a pointless waste of resources.

End of the day both 720P and 1080P will look good, but 1080P will certainly be superior on displays that are 1080P capable.

 

[Powderkeg]

Are you talking about 720p upscaled to 1080p vs native 1080p?

I'm talking about in the context of the quote in my post.


And yes, up close the 1080p would be slightly sharper, but would you actually notice the difference at a normal viewing distance?

 

[Bad_Boy]

I'm talking about in the context of the quote in my post.

and that context was comparing 720p upscaled to 1080p native, was it not? Maybe I misunderstood you.

And yes, up close the 1080p would be slightly sharper, but would you actually notice the difference at a normal viewing distance?

Yes, which I answered in my post.

edit:
I'm sure someone else with a 1080p setup with access to a 1080p source could tell you the same thing.

 

[pegisys]

I would like to know what kind of tv's they are using for both systems when making comparisions sometime the IQ difference could be a factor of the TV alone

I know Xbox uses that samsung TV alot, which is OK, but they really can't shake a stick at some of the newer Sony TVs. I just wonder how much of the better looking games is because of better displays and then 1080 just gets most of the credit

I can only compare PC monitors, but I have seen a game running on a 15" LCD look better then a 19" LCD, both running at their native res, and the game running with the same settings on both

 

[mrboo]

Yes you can tell the difference between 720p upscaled to 1080p vs native 1080p, BUT it all depends on a few factor's :

1. The size of the display that is being viewed, as a larger display will have bigger pixel's it has a stronger chance of showing error's in the scaling.
2. The quality of the scaling is very important IMO, a badly scaled 1080p image will look horrible compared to native 1080p ( And good scalers are expensive )
3. Viewing distance, viewing a 1080p upscaled image from far away will hide most of the "flaws" that one would other wise notice when viewing close up.

 

[RobertR1]

A 50 inch HDTV sitting 8+ feet away, you'll be very hard pressed to tell the difference between 720P upscaled to 1080P or native 1080P. Oh and I assume the display is professionaly calibrated......

To get the best out of 1080P you have to put some effort into the display. This ranges from, a high quality TV, professional calibration and a dark room with no direct light on the display. Ofcourse we're all suckers for marketing

In relation to gaming, I rather see a 720P game with all the bells and whistles (AA, AF, good textures, HDR, etc...) and a high FPS, then scaled to 1080P than a 1080P native game that might have stuff cut back.

 

[Bad_Boy]

Yes you can tell the difference between 720p upscaled to 1080p vs native 1080p, BUT it all depends on a few factor's :

1. The size of the display that is being viewed, as a larger display will have bigger pixel's it has a stronger chance of showing error's in the scaling.
2. The quality of the scaling is very important IMO, a badly scaled 1080p image will look horrible compared to native 1080p ( And good scalers are expensive )
3. Viewing distance, viewing a 1080p upscaled image from far away will hide most of the "flaws" that one would other wise notice when viewing close up.

^ I agree with that 100%. Larger TV's are probably the biggest factor (atleast to me), the difference will be less apparent in 30-40" setups.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

A 50 inch HDTV sitting 8+ feet away, you'll be very hard pressed to tell the difference between 720P upscaled to 1080P or native 1080P. Oh and I assume the display is professionaly calibrated......

Again, are you comparing games or TV? On TV sources, sure you'll be hard pushed to tell the difference. But for games with limited AA, if you can see jaggies at a resolution, that means the higher resolution will look better (in terms of fidelity, not shaders and whatnot).

I'll also add that 1080p is a great idea for split-screen games. Thinking of those 4-way kart games for example, you'd get the equivalent of your own SDTV for each player at 1080p!

 

[Powderkeg]

and that context was comparing 720p upscaled to 1080p native, was it not? Maybe I misunderstood you.

Was it?

Can you confirm that both of those games are rendered internally at 1080p on the PS3, and output 1080p natively and not via scaling?

Yes, which I answered in my post.

edit:
I'm sure someone else with a 1080p setup with access to a 1080p source could tell you the same thing.

See above. Are you absolutely certain those games are rendered internally at 1080p? Got some proof?

If not then you have to accept the possibility that they are rendered at 720p internally and upscaled, in which case it wouldn't look any better than the 360 version upscaled to 1080p.

 

[mr_arcam]

Was it?

Can you confirm that both of those games are rendered internally at 1080p on the PS3, and output 1080p natively and not via scaling?





See above. Are you absolutely certain those games are rendered internally at 1080p? Got some proof?

If not then you have to accept the possibility that they are rendered at 720p internally and upscaled, in which case it wouldn't look any better than the 360 version upscaled to 1080p.

Don't go off point. Its not a debate on which games render at 1080P or 720P. Its not about XBOX360 vs PS3. Its about whether 1080P can offer improved clarity and image quality compared to 720P on your flat panel TV at home. If you want to debate whether or not X, Y or Z game render at a specific resolution then start a seperate thread and stop turning this into a ****** argument.

 

[mckmas8808]

Was it?

Can you confirm that both of those games are rendered internally at 1080p on the PS3, and output 1080p natively and not via scaling?





See above. Are you absolutely certain those games are rendered internally at 1080p? Got some proof?

If not then you have to accept the possibility that they are rendered at 720p internally and upscaled, in which case it wouldn't look any better than the 360 version upscaled to 1080p.

His proof I think may be the devs themselves.

 

[SugarCoat]

Its about whether 1080P can offer improved clarity and image quality compared to 720P on your flat panel TV at home.

Yes, if the screen is large enough or if you sit with your face in front of it.

Is it worth the premium or sacrificing of other effects to get a game to render at the higher res? Nope, not at all. Both the Xbox and PS3 dont have all this GPU power to spare in my opinion to just do it in every game or even alot of games. Will games have it? Sure, its called marketing, and it works very well as you've proven to us all here.

Never mind the fact that most console owners arent going to have HD-sets, let alone the true 1080P ones that cost thousands of dollars, nor are those people that are ready to replace their tv problably going to have the scratch to slap down for a 1080P set over a 720P set. Its on par with making a PC game that runs fine for the majority of users but can and needs to utilize the the capabilities of the few out there who have dual card setups for some random effect. Niche market. For that reason alone i'd prefer to see games look better via more effects and higher texture resolutions that alot of gamers can appriciate then something as wasteful as an increase in resolution that not everyone can try to appriciate on their console game, an effect, that mind you is fact, that most people have a hard time noticing anyway. There is a huge problability of a placebo effect going on in those peoples heads who have seen both, not to mention some good marketing and tweaking of the sets mind you. And before its brought up again, yes i've seen both extensively, terribly sorry i dont have my credentials to slap down for you to disect, but this is the internet, and thats my word, so you can take it or leave it.

Feel like i'm chasing my own proverbial tail trying to explain this though.

 

[Bad_Boy]

Was it?

Can you confirm that both of those games are rendered internally at 1080p on the PS3, and output 1080p natively and not via scaling?

COD3 is 720p, that much I am sure of. Its been stated multiple times by various websites that the game was running at 720p. Marvel on the otherhand, I'm 99% sure it's 1080p native.

But thats besides the point, the context of the question you were asking if there was a difference, and I replyed with an answer to your question.

 

[mr_arcam]

Yes, if the screen is large enough or if you sit with your face in front of it.

Is it worth the premium or sacrificing of other effects to get a game to render at the higher res? Nope, not at all. Both the Xbox and PS3 dont have all this GPU power to spare in my opinion to just do it in every game or even alot of games. Will games have it? Sure, its called marketing, and it works very well as you've proven to us all here.

Never mind the fact that most console owners arent going to have HD-sets, let alone the true 1080P ones that cost thousands of dollars, nor are those people that are ready to replace their tv problably going to have the scratch to slap down for a 1080P set over a 720P set. Its on par with making a PC game that runs fine for the majority of users but can and needs to utilize the the capabilities of the few out there who have dual card setups for some random effect. Niche market. For that reason alone i'd prefer to see games look better via more effects and higher texture resolutions that alot of gamers can appriciate then something as wasteful as an increased in resolution that not everyone can try to appriciate on their console game that most people have a hard time noticing anyway.

Feel like i'm beating a dead horse trying to explain this though.

You really need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture or atleast a less XBOX 360 tinted view. Providing the option for developers to target 1080P is a good thing. Its not mandatory and like any other GFX enhancement its upto the dev to decide how he uses his performance budget. It also looks like a few devs are choosing to use the 1080P so its already proved its worth. Devs are not stupid and will make the correct decisions based of their needs. Try to be thankful that Sony went out of the way to support these resolutions.

As for not seeing any difference, why do you think LCD makes like Sony, Sharp, etc are trying to produce 1080P sets. Why is it going to be used in next generation video formats? Ironically video is less likely to see the same improvements as computer graphics will by increasing resolution. Its just ignorant to discard 1080P because some people here cant fathom the benefits its brings. Bill did it with memory, ******s did it will 16bit vs 32bit, and now your doing it with 720P vs 1080P. Also please dont bring people "people wont even have HD" into this discussion. Its just another off topic discussion that serves no benefit in this thread but to help maintain the delusion that 1080P has no worth.

As for feeling like your "beating a dead horse", I can assure you the feeling is mutual.

 

[RobertR1]

The question is, would these so called "1080P games" actually have a better presentation had they been done at 720P, using every bit of power for effects and then scaled to 1080P than using the system power to natively at 1080P and meet a marketing checkbox. I believe that to be the case. Outside of B3D and other some enthusiast sites, how many would even care or know if it's native or scaled? afterall the TV set will state "1080P" regardless.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Looking forward we can see the industry is moving to 1080P displays, and so far only one console is setup to meet this.

Until november anyways, 360 will do 1080p through component for games, whether it can tile at that resolution is a different story I guess...

I agree this is a very overrated feature though, 720p looks amazing on the latest generation of LCD and Plasma HDTV's, any difference due to 1080p will be marginal at best. It's nothing more than the marketing machine needing to continue the cycle, so 1080p is getting pushed hard. Of course, many are lappin it up, can't blame the CE manufacturers, but it certainly is completely overrated imo.

With that said, it's the internal rendering abilties are the most important thing to me, not necessarily output capabilities, 1080i is fine for input into a 1080p TV anyways. Seems the 10mb framebuffer may become the largest limiting factor for 360 games rendering internally at 1080, I wonder if any devs can comment on the feasibility of using that many tiles on Xenos?

 

[mr_arcam]

The question is, would these so called "1080P games" actually have a better presentation had they been done at 720P, using every bit of power for effects and then scaled to 1080P than using the system power to natively at 1080P and meet a marketing checkbox. I believe that to be the case. Outside of B3D and other some enthusiast sites, how many would even care or know if it's native or scaled? afterall the TV set will state "1080P" regardless.

No thats not the question. Thats changing the question to lead to the answer desired. The question still remains; Will 1080P provide better image quality and clarity comparedt to 720P. As for the effect it has on effects thats is upto the developers to decide on how we use our budget. We could argue the same comparing 480P to 720P. Sure you can add more "effects" to 480P but the overall presentation would be better on 720P.

End of the day this is nothing new in the PC world, only now in the console domain are we begining to experice HD gamming. I hear no one complaining when going from 1280 by 720 to 1920 by 1080 on PC games. Sure you sit closer, but the DPI (well PPI, pixels per inch) on pc monitors is so much higher as its significantly smaller. TV displays are now 42inch and greater and so the DPI is significantly lower and would benefit from increased resolution. As gamers we should be excited at the thought of playing at 1080P and not defensive and critical. It may be used for PR but that does not change the fact it is a big bonus for us gamers.

 

[mr_arcam]

Until november anyways, 360 will do 1080p through component for games, whether it can tile at that resolution is a different story I guess...

I agree this is a very overrated feature though, 720p looks amazing on the latest generation of LCD and Plasma HDTV's, any difference due to 1080p will be marginal at best. It's nothing more than the marketing machine needing to continue the cycle, so 1080p is getting pushed hard. Of course, many are lappin it up, can't blame the CE manufacturers, but it certainly is completely overrated imo.

With that said, it's the internal rendering abilties are the most important thing to me, not necessarily output capabilities, 1080i is fine for input into a 1080p TV anyways. Seems the 10mb framebuffer may become the largest limiting factor for 360 games rendering internally at 1080, I wonder if any devs can comment on the feasibility of using that many tiles on Xenos?

I really hope Microsoft do this, I also hope they are able to do this over HDMI. Im not sure but I thought the bandwidth of component signals are only speced upto 1280 by 720P. Again im not sure but I will check on this.

If Microsoft do this they can certainly hit Sony hard. Lets be honest, Sony really do push 1080P as being in the domain of on the PS3. I would love to see how they counter this.

 

[gokickrocks]

Why are people so obsessed with trying to play down the PS3 1080P support. Its strangely akin to the 16bit vs 32bit days. Sure at the start the difference was not as noticeable as there was no that much blending or alpha effects.

Looking forward we can see the industry is moving to 1080P displays, and so far only one console is setup to meet this. Its strange how in the PC space people are very conscience of resolution, but in the console world everyone seems to have signed off as 720P being the perfect resolution and any increase would be pointless. It seems very short sighted and to be honest I think its principally motivated by peoples allegiance to their console of choice. I’m not saying that this is the case for everyone, maybe the rest just have not had sufficient experience to really make an educated judgment on the issue.

All this talk about having to downgrade to support 1080P is nonsense. It’s like saying developers who use AA, antistrophic filtering or post image processing or (insert the effect) are wasting resources. Let the bleeding developers make the decision how they balance performance. Its plain ignorant to say 1080P is a pointless waste of resources.

End of the day both 720P and 1080P will look good, but 1080P will certainly be superior on displays that are 1080P capable.

it all comes down to choice really...in the pc world, people make their own balance, they determine what they prefer to have...im not saying that 1080p is a bad choice however

 

[mr_arcam]

it all comes down to choice really...in the pc world, people make their own balance, they determine what they prefer to have...im not saying that 1080p is a bad choice however

Exactly, and now developers have been given that choice for console games. Its a win-win situation for all.