The whole topic is about whether a 1080p game will look better than a 720p game; no one is debating whether the 1080p game will be sharper.
1080P, what's the meaning?
- Thread starter MasterDisaster
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For example, it will depend on what features the developer has to cut out to make the game work at 1080p.
Let's make it clear. 1080p resolution is better then 720p. On its own. But, running on the same hardware, you just can't get the same detail at both resolutions because your resources are limited. So, a 720p game theoretically has more resources and can convert them into better looking images, if the developer is good.
The Heavenly Sword guys could perhaps add to this discussion but I assume they'd prefer not to voice their opinions... If they can, it'd certainly help the discussion. I mean, HS is running at 720p, with all the bells and whistles - there's certainly a reason why it's not doing the same, but at 1080p.
Let's make it clear. 1080p resolution is better then 720p. On its own. But, running on the same hardware, you just can't get the same detail at both resolutions because your resources are limited. So, a 720p game theoretically has more resources and can convert them into better looking images, if the developer is good.
The Heavenly Sword guys could perhaps add to this discussion but I assume they'd prefer not to voice their opinions... If they can, it'd certainly help the discussion. I mean, HS is running at 720p, with all the bells and whistles - there's certainly a reason why it's not doing the same, but at 1080p.
Bigus Dickus
Regular
I've tried to make that argument but I think it falls on deaf ears. Years ago, the argument went like this... "in a perfect world, we'd have 1280 x 1024 with the same IQ features and framerates as 1024 x 768 (or, insert lower resolution pairs for more in the past, or higher resolution pairs for more recent discussions). But it isn't a perfect world, and higher resolution means sacrifices somewhere else. So, given that, which combination seems to produce the most pleasing end result for you?"
Well, the answer was... it depends. It always has and always will. In large part, it depends on the game. Equally significant, it depends on the person.
In the PC space, the argument was complicated by the fact that framerate was variable and user selectable corresponding to various resolutions. So some people chose high framerates + high res but with minimal IQ features, others chose max resolution and IQ at the expense of framerate, others went low resolution to get max IQ with good framerates, and still others opted for bare minimal IQ and lowish resolutions to max out framerates.
In the console space, we get what they give us, so the argument isn't about what selection each person thinks works best for them but rather what we would have had if their choice had been different. i.e., does this game sacrifice IQ significantly to run at 1080p, or was it not that graphically demanding to begin with? Was 60fps a reasonable target for X game, or was something more important sacrificed?
I guess the pertinent question could be rephrased for console space as "so, given that, which combination seems to produce the most pleasing end result for the gratest number of people?"
Well, the answer was... it depends. It always has and always will. In large part, it depends on the game. Equally significant, it depends on the person.
In the PC space, the argument was complicated by the fact that framerate was variable and user selectable corresponding to various resolutions. So some people chose high framerates + high res but with minimal IQ features, others chose max resolution and IQ at the expense of framerate, others went low resolution to get max IQ with good framerates, and still others opted for bare minimal IQ and lowish resolutions to max out framerates.
In the console space, we get what they give us, so the argument isn't about what selection each person thinks works best for them but rather what we would have had if their choice had been different. i.e., does this game sacrifice IQ significantly to run at 1080p, or was it not that graphically demanding to begin with? Was 60fps a reasonable target for X game, or was something more important sacrificed?
I guess the pertinent question could be rephrased for console space as "so, given that, which combination seems to produce the most pleasing end result for the gratest number of people?"
I can fully agree with that. You're right.
There's a huge difference between your position and the one presented in the OP (or somewhat later in the thread) and maybe it's worth pointing out again (especially after making one of the more uncivil posts on this page).
The OP presented a binary choice between either MSAA or 1080p. The OP presented a binary choice between either HDR or 1080p. The OP pretended to know that the "sweet spot" cannot lie somewhere in-between.
And of course there's a group of people who dismiss 1080p outright as not useful, noone/not enough can take advantage of it etc. Pure cost without benefit. As if it were a disease. Which it isn't.
"It depends" is so much more true and so much more reasonable.
I have fruitlessly been trying to say this also. How can it be a bad idea when it gives Developers the choice to select the resolution they prefer. Different games have different requirements. A flight sim would certainly benefit from 1080p, where an arcade action game might not.
Like I said, we should applaud Sony not complain... People like Powderkeg either have an alternative motive or are just blind to the bigger picture. I hope its the latter, as the former means that no amount of explaination will help.
ok no more on the matter, the horse is officially beaten, slaughtered and lying on my plate ready to be eaten.
Like I said, we should applaud Sony not complain... People like Powderkeg either have an alternative motive or are just blind to the bigger picture. I hope its the latter, as the former means that no amount of explaination will help.
ok no more on the matter, the horse is officially beaten, slaughtered and lying on my plate ready to be eaten.
There is reason to complain if the decision to choose 1080p was based on a marketing gimmick, and not on technical reasons. At least, that's how I read the dissenting opinion.
Arghh... how to make you understand. Forget Sony motives, think of big picture. We as consumers benefit from this. Developers benefit from this. So what if sonys marketing benefits from this. Heck everyone is a winner. Is it so difficult to just stop complaining and understand this.
The amount of energy spent on this thread to make people believe that support for 1080p is a bad idea is mind boggling. It makes me question either the motives or age of many posters here.
What I don't get is why people keep phrasing the argument as "1080p is bad"? I haven't seen a single person suggest that 1080p sucks, only that if the reasons for doing so is marketting related, and the trade off was IQ, then it was a bad choice.
But keep re-phrasing the debate as "1080p is bad/choice is good." It certainly trivializes those not agreeing with you.
Come on don’t be pedantic; the ultimate message here has been the pointlessness of 1080p. If you argue that fact then there is no point discussing with you further.
And for the last time, 1080p is a developer choice. Are you telling me that no developers will choose 1080p based on they feel it suits their requirements? Do you really believe 720p is the best choice no matter what game? If you answer no to any of these questions then you have finally begin to understand how any 1080p bashing is plain ignorant.
It’s a shame no developers have chose to discuss this. All they need to say is whether or not they feel having 1080p support was a good or bad thing…..
mckmas8808
Legend
Seriously mr_arcam people fear what they don't understand. Your have a reason to question their motives too.
Bigus Dickus
Regular
I'm glad you agreed with my above comments... but I hope you don't read more into them than you should. An important point that perhaps I should have made more clearly was that higher resolutions were always a benefit to the consumer in the PC space when they were available as a choice. If you had the hardware, or like the performance/IQ tradeoffs, it was there to make you happy.
However, in the console arena, the dynamic is very different. The choice is in the hands of the developer, not the consumer. Everyone is a winner when they can pick what works for them. PC space, not console space. People are losers if the choice made by developers, on their behalf, is not the same they would have made on their own behalf.
The idea, again, is that developers will hopefully make the choice that gives the best combination of performance and image quality for their specific vision of a game, and consequently makes the largest portion of the gamers happy with the decision. If any other motives enter the equation, such as pressure either from Sony or perhaps more interestingly from the market to release 1080p games (hey, wouldn't surprise me if 1080p games don't have some marketing advantages, whether pushed by Sony or not... most consumers are ignorant and bigger numbers have always meant better, right?), then the consumer doesn't win.
And I think that is the genuine and legitimate concern of many here, including myself.
I would rather developers make the choice in the console space. Anyhow Im trying to be objective about this, but damn can you please just use some common sense. If there was so much pressure we would not have seen as many 720p games as we have seen so far. Also at the end of the day Sony and the developers want their game to look the best so they will make the appropriate choice. Do you have so little faith in developers will make sacrifices in graphics just for a marketing gimmick, even though it could potentialy allow the compotetion (XBOX) to look better?
Hey if it helps you feel better, Im sure Microsoft will render some games internally at 1080p. So hey its not just a Sony thing. Oh wait, you can complain really hard and long about the fact Sony have a 1080p capable DVI / HDMI output. But then again... maybe Microsoft will make a BIG mistake and figure out a way to also opt for 1080p. Those evil guys, putting the plague of 1080p on us.
Maybe we should start an online petition.
Bigus Dickus
Regular
I think they will probably make the best choice in the vast majority of cases. There is the possibility that they can make a bad decision here and there, or be influenced to make one here and there. I believe they'll still make better choices than I would... but that doesn't prevent me from being informed, and discussing the tradeoffs they encounter when making such decisions.
I think I've been pretty polite thus far... I'm sure you would prefer if I remained that way.
I think it is a realistic possibility, and after MS enables 1080p output on the 360 I think the concern applies to both sides of the fence equally.
You're trying to provoke me into be impolite, aren't you?
I can't believe another 1080p discussion thread is carrying on for this long.
Let's just wrap it up right here and now if we can.
1080p > 720p (and upscaling doesn't match it in terms of PQ)
PS3 can do 1080p
When a dev decides to do 1080p, limits are placed elsewhere in the pipeline with what can be achieved at a certain framerate; of course this is the case with 720p vs 480p as well (and frankly I'd love to see a 'maxed out' game running at 480p on one of these systems just to see what they pack in)
So it's just a matter of trade-offs. IMO I think 720p is the sweetspot this gen, but there will be games where for what they are, 1080p will make more sense and/or be readily achievable with the same number of 'effects.' Virtua Tennis comes to mind as a good example.
This is seriously like the fifth 1080p thread in the last month.
Let's just wrap it up right here and now if we can.
1080p > 720p (and upscaling doesn't match it in terms of PQ)
PS3 can do 1080p
When a dev decides to do 1080p, limits are placed elsewhere in the pipeline with what can be achieved at a certain framerate; of course this is the case with 720p vs 480p as well (and frankly I'd love to see a 'maxed out' game running at 480p on one of these systems just to see what they pack in)
So it's just a matter of trade-offs. IMO I think 720p is the sweetspot this gen, but there will be games where for what they are, 1080p will make more sense and/or be readily achievable with the same number of 'effects.' Virtua Tennis comes to mind as a good example.
This is seriously like the fifth 1080p thread in the last month.
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