1 Million Xbox 360s to be Banned

[tcrews]

bkilian,

Is there a reason why Microsoft isn't addressing the complaint that they have punished consumers who were not pirating games but only added a larger HDD?

Have you heard of or know of anyone who had their console banned because of "hacking" a larger HD to the 360?


I've seen consoles banned for modding the console (DVD firmware, pre-NXE system and then there was the blocking of non-licensed memory cards but I've not seen anyone "upgrading" their HD getting banned yet.

 

[BRiT]

Is there a reason why Microsoft isn't addressing the complaint that they have punished consumers who were not pirating games but only added a larger HDD?

That is a lie. I know multiple people with only a larger HDD and their consoles function perfectly fine. The only consoles hit were those with the modified dvd firmware. Anyone who claims to have had their console hit when only having a larger HDD are dishonest. At some point in time they have had modified dvd firmware. They might have flashed back to the original firmware trying to avoid the ban-wave, but it was well after their console was flagged.

 

[Acert93]

That is a lie. I know multiple people with only a larger HDD and their consoles function perfectly fine. The only consoles hit were those with the modified dvd firmware. Anyone who claims to have had their console hit when only having a larger HDD are dishonest. At some point in time they have had modified dvd firmware. They might have flashed back to the original firmware trying to avoid the ban-wave, but it was well after their console was flagged.

Blame the news reports then, only recounting what I have read.

Personally I don't know anyone who was affected with a Live ban or Datel issue. But if what you are saying is accurate, and that the claim that enlarged HDDs were NOT affected, then MS should address that false claim.

... Of course, they shouldn't. Because they had the media sites do the dirty work, scare people (like me) to thinking they would get banned, and ta da. Instant discouragement from doing the HDD hack, all the long not actually nailing anyone.

 

[AzBat]

bkilian,

Is there a reason why Microsoft isn't addressing the complaint that they have punished consumers who were not pirating games but only added a larger HDD?

Seems like a pretty blatant attempt to hide behind the TOS, paint everyone as a villan well knowing this isn't the case, and to safeguard the "Apple-Tax" MS-only peripherals.

You would think this was good for MS. Not only is MS charging for online gaming access for non-dedicated servers, when consumers up their HDD to buy MS products off of Live MS wins. Even if you argue, "They can re-download content" that costs MS money.

I feel for MS--to a degree. I remember a number of years ago getting into TeamSpeak with my BF clan and we were scrimming another clan where almost every member had a modded Xbox1 and dozens of pirated games. I am firmly against piracy and have been pretty firm on these forums against all those who take it as a relative issue and defend PC piracy.

On the other hand a company like MS can burn through goodwill pretty quickly and gain the impression they are a nickle-and-diming customers once they get them locked into their platform. I know MS will claim, "We only give customers what they have asked for" but this isn't true when you see how customers are asking for stripped features to return (look at Forza 3) or how this trend of extracting $60 at retail and then REQUIRING microtransactions to get the full benefit of the game (NHL and all those games that have DLC on the disc!!)

When MS starts nailing people for buying 3rd party controllers, 3rd party memory cards (cheaper+more space), or upgrading their HDD to either buy more MS content (or install games so your freaking loud system is tolerable) and decide when the 2005 "Customization and Personalization" of the Xbox was restrained ONLY to approved cash cows, well, MS looks chincy.

Then again who in the gaming press with a large reach dare speak such words? So MS is probably safe and need not really address this issue.

I think a lot of your anger is misplaced. Especially considering bkilian doesn't fully represent the Xbox business as a whole. And as others have noted, the bans look to be completely targeted at pirates. Yes, the ban does delete HD installation certificates which prevents games from being able to install to the hard drive or being able to play games already installed. But again the reason those systems were banned was because of hacked DVD firmware, not user-replaced hard drives.

BTW, you might also be confusing Microsoft new stance on locking out 3rd-party memory units. I believe this is only for memory cards and not hard drives. In fact, Datel is probably the largest company affected by this and they just announced hitting Microsoft with an anti-trust suit. I think it's cool that they are doing this, but I ultimately think their suit will fail. Microsoft can decide who can make compatible Xbox products by granting licenses. Unfortunately Datel didn't to pay a license for their memory cards. Datel would probably would have a better leg to stand on if wasn't for the fact that most people who buy their memory cards are using them for non-standard/nefarious reasons. If Datel was active in preventing users in hacking their gamesaves to cheat or get free achievements, then I doubt Microsoft would have went to these lengths to block the units.

Tommy McClain

 

[specwarGP2]

BTW, you might also be confusing Microsoft new stance on locking out 3rd-party memory units. I believe this is only for memory cards and not hard drives. In fact, Datel is probably the largest company affected by this and they just announced hitting Microsoft with an anti-trust suit. I think it's cool that they are doing this, but I ultimately think their suit will fail. Microsoft can decide who can make compatible Xbox products by granting licenses. Unfortunately Datel didn't to pay a license for their memory cards. Datel would probably would have a better leg to stand on if wasn't for the fact that most people who buy their memory cards are using them for non-standard/nefarious reasons. If Datel was active in preventing users in hacking their gamesaves to cheat or get free achievements, then I doubt Microsoft would have went to these lengths to block the units.

Tommy McClain

But isn't the reason Datel makes unlicensed 360 products is because MS refuses to grant a license in the first place? Also I find the reason for banning the cards to be a stretch. Can't people hack into game saves simply by plugging the HD into a PC? or even using the MS supplied data transfer cable?

 

[Acert93]

I cannot get the articles right this moment, but I read reports that specifically mentioned modified HDDs and the reporters implicated users who modded the HDD without pirating content would also be objects of the ban.

As for anger, it isn't anger at bkilian, or at MS, but pointing out how poor I think their strategy is. For what its worth, no one from MS ever responds to my requests or comments so

My experience is they don't really care to engage these issues of this category in the open.

Which is another way some of their pr guys (not bkilian, who isn't in PR) look like idiots. Sorry, when you have your PR monkeys hanging on NeoGaf all day long and they cannot answer / illucidate clear questions and pick/choose to engage only those that put a favorable spin your "relations" clearly derail into "PR damage control." It is most laughable when they read dozens of posts and pick the most inane one to reply to and skip the most relevant aspect of the question.

Sometimes being quiet is good PR--the silence is the answer. But consumers know when they are being mocked.

More importantly we know when the press isn't doing their job; the industry is a pretty cozy scratch my back I scratch yours.

So there is no anger, just hard questions. And like I said, if no consoles were banned for HDD upgrades, cool. And pretty "slick" use of your TOS and media PR to scare people away from this, all to ensure sales of hyper-expensive HDDs.

 

[AzBat]

But isn't the reason Datel makes unlicensed 360 products is because MS refuses to grant a license in the first place?

Have you ever seen Datel actually pay to license anything they have ever made? Microsoft may be refusing to grant license, but it could also be that nobody has ever ponied up enough money to do it in the first place. It's MS platform & perogative.

Also I find the reason for banning the cards to be a stretch. Can't people hack into game saves simply by plugging the HD into a PC? or even using the MS supplied data transfer cable?

No. You can not just hook up the hard drive to a PC or use their transfer cable. Datel and a few other nefarious vendors have designed & sold devices that can connect official MS memory cards & hard drives to the PC, but again, they are non-licensed & unsupported by Microsoft.

Tommy McClain

 

[bkilian]

bkilian,

Is there a reason why Microsoft isn't addressing the complaint that they have punished consumers who were not pirating games but only added a larger HDD?

I have no idea why Microsoft does or doesn't respond to various complaints or rumors. Mostly I suspect they just roll dice, since it seems a bit random. "Aah, crap, a 4, now we have to call the New York Times..." (On a 7 they roll out Major Nelson)

Seems like a pretty blatant attempt to hide behind the TOS, paint everyone as a villan well knowing this isn't the case, and to safeguard the "Apple-Tax" MS-only peripherals.

You would think this was good for MS. Not only is MS charging for online gaming access for non-dedicated servers, when consumers up their HDD to buy MS products off of Live MS wins. Even if you argue, "They can re-download content" that costs MS money.

I'm with you on that, I personally think their storage solutions are kinda lame, not to mention expensive. From a "completely unrelated to the xbox team" perspective, control of the storage devices translates to a very large attack surface in security reviews, as some of the uses for Datel cards shows. There's no technical reason they couldn't have gone with straight USB thumb drives for storage. Lots of security reasons though.
Also, I'd be willing to wager that every single box they banned was used to play a pirated game online. Probably more than one. In a system like this, false positives are a complete no-no. It's better to let actual pirates through and hope to catch them later than incorrectly ban an innocent box. In all the ban waves, I've never seen a credible complaint that a non-pirating box was banned. Most of the excuses I've heard remind me of elementary school denial tactics. (It wasn't ME! It was johnny! He did it while I wasn't looking!)

When MS starts nailing people for buying 3rd party controllers, 3rd party memory cards (cheaper+more space), or upgrading their HDD to either buy more MS content (or install games so your freaking loud system is tolerable) and decide when the 2005 "Customization and Personalization" of the Xbox was restrained ONLY to approved cash cows, well, MS looks chincy.

Then again who in the gaming press with a large reach dare speak such words? So MS is probably safe and need not really address this issue.

3rd party controllers are readily available. Since they require a security chip, pretty much any controller that works is almost certainly licensed. I doubt Microsoft will ever disable them.

I think a lot of your anger is misplaced. Especially considering bkilian doesn't fully represent the Xbox business as a whole.

A small correction, I don't represent the XBox business at all. Other than the rare internal beta tests, I find things out the same way you guys do.

 

[AzBat]

3rd party controllers are readily available. Since they require a security chip, pretty much any controller that works is almost certainly licensed. I doubt Microsoft will ever disable them.

All 3rd regular party controllers(excluding music ones) are wired. MS has yet to license any wireless ones. Though according to the Datel complaint(yeah, I read it & such a nerd) Datel is working on a wireless "Joypad". Evidently they're concerned that the locked out memory units will lead to Microsoft locking out to their upcoming wireless controller too.

A small correction, I don't represent the XBox business at all. Other than the rare internal beta tests, I find things out the same way you guys do.

I stand corrected.

Tommy McClain

 

[specwarGP2]

Have you ever seen Datel actually pay to license anything they have ever made? Microsoft may be refusing to grant license, but it could also be that nobody has ever ponied up enough money to do it in the first place. It's MS platform & perogative.

Well if the cost to license is so high that no one is willing to pay it then the end result is the same as refusing to grant a license in the first place.

No. You can not just hook up the hard drive to a PC or use their transfer cable. Datel and a few other nefarious vendors have designed & sold devices that can connect official MS memory cards & hard drives to the PC, but again, they are non-licensed & unsupported by Microsoft.

Tommy McClain

So wait a minute... are you trying to say that if I take the hard drive out of the proprietary MS case, its not just a regular SATA drive in there? I can't plug an SATA and power cable into the drive and use one of those 360 file browsers on it?

 

[MfA]

Direct Download only next gen console is never going to happen ... a more interesting question is if any of the console manufacturers will have mandatory activation.

 

[AzBat]

So wait a minute... are you trying to say that if I take the hard drive out of the proprietary MS case, its not just a regular SATA drive in there? I can't plug an SATA and power cable into the drive and use one of those 360 file browsers on it?

You didn't say anything about taking the hard drive out of the enclosure or using special software to access it. You just said "simply by plugging the HD into a PC". Without modification and special software you can't access the drive. But like I said there are devices being sold that will let you hook the hard drive to your PC without taking it apart. Same thing for the memory card.

Tommy McClain

 

[specwarGP2]

You didn't say anything about taking the hard drive out of the enclosure or using special software to access it. You just said "simply by plugging the HD into a PC". Without modification and special software you can't access the drive. But like I said there are devices being sold that will let you hook the hard drive to your PC without taking it apart. Same thing for the memory card.

Tommy McClain

My bad, I should have been clearer about the hard drive. As for the using special software... I didnt mention it because you need the same software to modify files on the datel card too. Anyways my point is that saying that the cards are banned for use because of cheating is nothing but an excuse since its pretty easy to do.

 

[Billy Idol]

Did they this time ban the account as well??
Because this is something making me wonder: why don't they ban all the corresponding Xbox Live accounts as well.
Banning the Xbox is like doing nothing. I know a lot of people who have a modded Xbox and only have pirated games (the played Bortherlands, a copy downloaded from web, a week before it was even in store). They got banned now the second or third time since Xbox launch...nevertheless, they just laugh about the new ban, and state that they just buy a basic Xbox for 180 Euros (which is approximately 3 games) and move there stuff on...knowing that the next ban comes in one year at the earliest.
If they would loose there whole account, this would hurt them much more (friend lists, achievments, ...) and would be much more annoying.

 

[obonicus]

The conspiracy theorists say that gamerscores are what keep people returning.

There's also the issue of xbl points on your account, they might be opening themselves up to trouble if they take your money and then suddenly declare those points void.

 

[Billy Idol]

The conspiracy theorists say that gamerscores are what keep people returning.

There's also the issue of xbl points on your account, they might be opening themselves up to trouble if they take your money and then suddenly declare those points void.

yep, could be...but the point is that pirating games is not legal either (or is it?? question: is pirating games ilegal by law??) so maybe a smart laywer can make something up with this
But I agree, that this may be the reason why they don't ban your Xbox Live accounts...although I am sure that this would hurt people much more (not the Xbox Live points they loose, but their friends and achievements)!

 

[upnorthsox]

The conspiracy theorists say that gamerscores are what keep people returning.

There's also the issue of xbl points on your account, they might be opening themselves up to trouble if they take your money and then suddenly declare those points void.

To get around this they can just ban it for a certain time period, say one yr. This way they haven't actually confiscated/voided anything. Doubtful they'd do it though as that's not their intention.

 

[BRiT]

Blame the news reports then, only recounting what I have read.

Not blaming you at all, just blaming the liberal media...

As you said, the FUD generated by this has worked to MS's benefit.

 

[BRiT]

Did they this time ban the account as well??

No. I've only seen a handful of GamerTag bans that didn't involve network hacking/glitching/pirating. It was when the user has played a retail game early. The bans were usually reversed after they proved it was a retail store selling the game early.

 

[Phil]

So there is no anger, just hard questions. And like I said, if no consoles were banned for HDD upgrades, cool. And pretty "slick" use of your TOS and media PR to scare people away from this, all to ensure sales of hyper-expensive HDDs.

I get your frustrations - as a Xb360 customer, I'd probably feel the same way too. Then again, there are two views to this: Piracy doesn't necessarely have to be limited to downloaded software, but also includes using unlicenced hardware. If Microsoft choses to sell their console at a cheaper price and make some money back on hyper-expensive HDDs, they should be entitled to use that strategy. The hyper-expensive HDDs belong to the entire Xbox business, just as do the costs of software and other add-ons.

One could argue that if they would indeed offer their customers to use any sata available harddrive on the market, that they would have to increase the costs of their console to gain the same profit. I can also understand customers on the other hand that don't look at it from the big picture and refuse to pay for hyper expensive and overpriced HDDs.