Doomtrooper
Veteran
kid_crisis said:
5800's were 400/800 and didn't require the FlowFX.
GeFX canned?
- Thread starter Nebuchadnezzar
- Start date
5800's were 400/800 and didn't require the FlowFX.
kid_crisis
Newcomer
Doomtrooper said:
Yes, I know. Kyle at Hardocp is claiming the new shipping non-ultra is clocked at 500/800 though. He must have it wrong I guess.
nVidia might have shot the dog that is the nV30, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that they have something better planned for the very near future - if they don't, then truly nVidia is in a world of hurt.
anyone remember that comment by Anand a few days before the GFFX (p)reviews appeared? Along the lines of "nVidia is going to try some new marketing strategies" or something... makes you wonder if all this wasn't planned...
anyone remember that comment by Anand a few days before the GFFX (p)reviews appeared? Along the lines of "nVidia is going to try some new marketing strategies" or something... makes you wonder if all this wasn't planned...
They may just be trying to get rid of all the chip inventory they have, and since adding 500Mhz DDR2 would make them lose even more money than they already are, they figured they slap the slower cheaper ram and not lose as much moola.
My $0.02
They already are, we are just starting to see the effects of it.
A few other thoughts.
They must have weighed the cost of driver development and customer support versus the cost of canning it and opted for the latter. One thing is for sure, a LOT of the AIB and OEM partners will be extremely unhappy with this move.
My $0.02
Ratchet said:
They already are, we are just starting to see the effects of it.
A few other thoughts.
They must have weighed the cost of driver development and customer support versus the cost of canning it and opted for the latter. One thing is for sure, a LOT of the AIB and OEM partners will be extremely unhappy with this move.
Ratchet--
Happened to see your post as I was finishing this one. They haven't killed nv30--they've only killed nv30 Ultra products--they won't be making anything with a Dustbuster or running at 500MHz with 1 GHz DDRII ram onboard. But they will be making the 400MHz/800 nv30 Dusbuster-less, non-R300-competitive products on schedule, apparently. So I seriously doubt nVidia's at the top of some master plan to get the worst possible publicity it could get about its company....
Nah, I don't think you have to worry that any of this was deliberate--it's just that whomever was making the decisions relative to GF FX 5800 Ultra has had his bubble well and truly popped and is now returned to the land of mortals and realizes the Ultra was a Dustbuster of a product that needed, no, demanded, to be put out of its misery.
Moving on...
One small thing I resent out of all of this is nVidia making a big deal last year about how nv30 was the first chip co-designed by 3dfx and nVidia engineers. The one technology that I expected to see used from 3dfx in the nV30 would have been some kind of major FSAA improvement from nVidia along the lines of the T-buffer and 3dfx's hardware RGSS. Certainly it wouldn't have been the same thing, but frankly judging by the poor FSAA in the sample products that were reviewed it didn't look like nVidia had an interest in 3dfx's ideas on FSAA at all--which were certainly always years ahead of nVidia's. In fact, the only thing at all that even remotely smacked of a 3dfx approach was using the post filter to apply a sort of pseudo-FSAA to the nv30's 2x and QC modes--3dfx made good use of the post filter in the V3 and the V5, but never for FSAA, as I recall. Did anyone else notice anything about this chip that might be remotely connected to a 3dfx approach or technology? I mean, we'll still have the mid-range non-Dustbuster 5800's to play with presumably, so it isn't like we won't find out. But if any of you guys review the 5800 later on I'd appreciate it if you remembered what nVidia said about the design of this chip and looked for anything 3dfx related in it--be great, too, if nVidia would provide some info on this--maybe let a couple of the ex-3dfx guys talk about it and their role in its development...? That'd be nice.
Happened to see your post as I was finishing this one. They haven't killed nv30--they've only killed nv30 Ultra products--they won't be making anything with a Dustbuster or running at 500MHz with 1 GHz DDRII ram onboard. But they will be making the 400MHz/800 nv30 Dusbuster-less, non-R300-competitive products on schedule, apparently. So I seriously doubt nVidia's at the top of some master plan to get the worst possible publicity it could get about its company....
Nah, I don't think you have to worry that any of this was deliberate--it's just that whomever was making the decisions relative to GF FX 5800 Ultra has had his bubble well and truly popped and is now returned to the land of mortals and realizes the Ultra was a Dustbuster of a product that needed, no, demanded, to be put out of its misery.Moving on...
One small thing I resent out of all of this is nVidia making a big deal last year about how nv30 was the first chip co-designed by 3dfx and nVidia engineers. The one technology that I expected to see used from 3dfx in the nV30 would have been some kind of major FSAA improvement from nVidia along the lines of the T-buffer and 3dfx's hardware RGSS. Certainly it wouldn't have been the same thing, but frankly judging by the poor FSAA in the sample products that were reviewed it didn't look like nVidia had an interest in 3dfx's ideas on FSAA at all--which were certainly always years ahead of nVidia's. In fact, the only thing at all that even remotely smacked of a 3dfx approach was using the post filter to apply a sort of pseudo-FSAA to the nv30's 2x and QC modes--3dfx made good use of the post filter in the V3 and the V5, but never for FSAA, as I recall. Did anyone else notice anything about this chip that might be remotely connected to a 3dfx approach or technology? I mean, we'll still have the mid-range non-Dustbuster 5800's to play with presumably, so it isn't like we won't find out. But if any of you guys review the 5800 later on I'd appreciate it if you remembered what nVidia said about the design of this chip and looked for anything 3dfx related in it--be great, too, if nVidia would provide some info on this--maybe let a couple of the ex-3dfx guys talk about it and their role in its development...? That'd be nice.
Doomtrooper
Veteran
Ratchet said:
Ratchet,
You do realize what the shareholders would say ?? I'm pretty sure the marketing he meant was the 'free fsaa', 'intellisample' and 90% of the reviewers pointing to 2XFSAA benchmarks (Hexus-net) etc..
Bad press for any company is not what you want (no marketing person would ever want it)
But by releasing the Ultra for review Nvidia made it seem like they took back the performance crown. Now even though they canned the part, most people will be too stupid to realize the truth. Don't ever underestimate the stupidity of people, NV30 non-ultra will probably outsell the R9700 Pro.
1) There is no reason I've heard so far to believe the nv30 effort has delayed the nv35, and I'd tend to think nVidia would have had to be rather foolish to change their plans to have that result when they hit the nv30 snags. I tend to believe that the nv35 delay would primarily be determined by the marketplace, given the original intended launch schedule...as we've guessed during the nv30 delay period, focus on preparing the nv35 was likely a priority.
In this light, killing the 5800 Ultra seems very sane if they've recently reached the conclusion that they can bring it to market soon enough. I think it lends validity to the May(?)/June launch rumors with the nv35 (as much before the launch of the R400 as possible), and indicates that the issues (I think) Mufu has hinted at are on-track for resolution.
2) 500/800 doesn't sound very sane to me...but 400/"1000" does.
(a) I'd expect heat issues with "DDR II" RAM to be less severe than those for the GPU, and yields at 400 MHz sound profitable.
(b) Bandwidth is the GF FX's primary problem.
(c) Not having read Kyle's comment yet, it seems like a plausible minor miscommunication.
In this light, killing the 5800 Ultra seems very sane if they've recently reached the conclusion that they can bring it to market soon enough. I think it lends validity to the May(?)/June launch rumors with the nv35 (as much before the launch of the R400 as possible), and indicates that the issues (I think) Mufu has hinted at are on-track for resolution.
2) 500/800 doesn't sound very sane to me...but 400/"1000" does.
(a) I'd expect heat issues with "DDR II" RAM to be less severe than those for the GPU, and yields at 400 MHz sound profitable.
(b) Bandwidth is the GF FX's primary problem.
(c) Not having read Kyle's comment yet, it seems like a plausible minor miscommunication.
THe_KELRaTH
Regular
With this fiasco I doubt many would even buy the non Ultra - it would also be much cheaper to buy the 9700 Non Pro.
I don't really think the NV35 will offer much more either, after all, it's meant to be just a revision update of the NV30. As I understand it the new core is the NV40 but I expect we'll all see the usual PR about the NV35 getting you closer to god etc etc
I don't really think the NV35 will offer much more either, after all, it's meant to be just a revision update of the NV30. As I understand it the new core is the NV40 but I expect we'll all see the usual PR about the NV35 getting you closer to god etc etc
Doomtrooper
Veteran
Well the 5800 non-Ultra version is alot slower than a 9700, Anandtech was one of the few that downclocked it ?? I agree people will still buy it because of the name (outsell the 9700, I doubt it).
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1779&p=15
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1779&p=15
Nagorak said:
I don't know *anyone* who could have reached the conclusion that nVidia took back anything after reading Anand's review. And of course people are not so stupid as to fail to realize that nVidia has cancelled production of this product completely, and confuse the 400MHz Dustbuster-less product with it. *chuckle* I think the very stern lesson nVidia received and realized from all of this is that the 3D market is not what it was 3-4 years ago--when you had people looking for "important features" like "AGP texturing" in their 3D cards and websites like Sharky's calling AGP texturing a "crucial technology." *chuckle* If anything, this will teach nVidia's PR that the market is not such an easy sell anymore, and it will take *genuinely good products* to compete in it--not nightmares cobbled out of some PR guy's wet dreams...
THe_KELRaTH
Regular
Or GF5Ti4800 hehehe!
I think most will shy away from the non ultra just on the basis that the Ultra has been cancelled so in the back of their mind there's probably something wrong with the non ultra too.
It will be interesting to see if the journalists panda to Nvidias PR in quite the same manner from now on.
I think most will shy away from the non ultra just on the basis that the Ultra has been cancelled so in the back of their mind there's probably something wrong with the non ultra too.
It will be interesting to see if the journalists panda to Nvidias PR in quite the same manner from now on.
Hmm...just a typo, it is a regular 400/"800" according to Kyle. I guess it wouldn't have made much difference in the competition against the 9700 Pro in any case, at the cost of profitability.
I wonder if MuFu has collected any more recent hints about the nv35 around the "water cooler"?
I wonder if MuFu has collected any more recent hints about the nv35 around the "water cooler"?
It looks like it is canned.
www.nvnews.net
It appears that GeforceFX 5800 Ultra has been canned by NVIDIA and will not make it to the retail market, HardOCP reports. Those of you who pre-ordered the card will get them. You will still be able to pick up the Non-Ultra version from the shelves.
So what about Gainward PR's? I'm completely confused here, since they recently had a chit-chat with GeforceZone.
Note that we are not sure if this is exactly what NVIDIA will do, so bare with us until we get more information.
On the other side, if you visit ASUS video card section, they are listing the ASUS V9900. You cannot tell which version they are advertising.
www.hardocp.com
GFFX Ultra No More:
As we noted here Thursday, the GeForceFX 5800 Ultra will never make it to retail. Those of you that PreBuy the cards will still get an Ultra model with the FX Flow cooling unit. Those who don't will have the opportunity to get the non-Ultra version (400/800) off the retail shelves for a price of US$300.00. This information is unconfirmed at this time, but has been what we have been told repeatedly by different sources since Tuesday of this week.
Anyone have a working and complete Voodoo5 6000 version 3 or better they want to trade for a working v1.1 GFFX 5800 Ultra? Drop me a line.
Also, at this time it seems that the BFGTech GFFX Ultra is still for sale through Best Buy. Get'um while they are hot...not that they ever won't be.
www.nvnews.net
It appears that GeforceFX 5800 Ultra has been canned by NVIDIA and will not make it to the retail market, HardOCP reports. Those of you who pre-ordered the card will get them. You will still be able to pick up the Non-Ultra version from the shelves.
So what about Gainward PR's? I'm completely confused here, since they recently had a chit-chat with GeforceZone.
Note that we are not sure if this is exactly what NVIDIA will do, so bare with us until we get more information.
On the other side, if you visit ASUS video card section, they are listing the ASUS V9900. You cannot tell which version they are advertising.
www.hardocp.com
GFFX Ultra No More:
As we noted here Thursday, the GeForceFX 5800 Ultra will never make it to retail. Those of you that PreBuy the cards will still get an Ultra model with the FX Flow cooling unit. Those who don't will have the opportunity to get the non-Ultra version (400/800) off the retail shelves for a price of US$300.00. This information is unconfirmed at this time, but has been what we have been told repeatedly by different sources since Tuesday of this week.
Anyone have a working and complete Voodoo5 6000 version 3 or better they want to trade for a working v1.1 GFFX 5800 Ultra? Drop me a line.
Also, at this time it seems that the BFGTech GFFX Ultra is still for sale through Best Buy. Get'um while they are hot...not that they ever won't be.
demalion said:
Aren't you just about sick and tired of "rumors" when it comes to nVidia and its products? That's about all it's been for the past 8-9 months out of nVidia--rumors and speculation galore--and at the end the stark and naked truth:
nVidia has no chip with which to compete with the R300 from ATI.
There were plenty of good, solid reasons to cancel the GF FX Ultra which have absolutely nothing whatever to do with "nv35" (*chuckle* That's so funny--after hearing "nv30,nv30,nv30,nv30".......ad infinitum for the past six months--and how it would "wipe the floor" with the puny R300 from ATI.) How about:
(1) The chip has to be over volted and over clocked to even superficially compete with R300--not R350, not R400--R300, shipped last September.
(2) The dustbuster makes too much noise
(3) The dustbuster is too big
(4) The dustbuster is too expensive
(5) 12-layer PCBs
(6) 75W of heat displacement
(7) Too many heatsinks
(8 Warranty coverage too expensive
Those are just in-your-face, undeniable observations each of which by itself might be reason enough to cancel the product. Taken in total they are overwhelming.
Let's speculate and add a few more:
(9) OEMs were unhappy at what the card would cost to make (or "What if you built a reference design that nobody wanted?")
(10) What if nv30 yields were so low they couldn't get enough chips to sell that would even overclock and overvolt to 500MHz without destroying themselves?
(11) DDRII ram is too expensive, and as the sole-supplier for the 1GHz spec stuff, SamSung thought to press its advantage and charge a premium?
That's enough. As you can see there are plenty of reasons to cancel this product, none of which are remotely connected to the mythical "nv35." (Ever heard the story about the boy who cried 'wolf'?)
400/800 is the real deal. Maybe nVidia will up the spec for the non-Ultras. But at a selling price of $300, don't count on it. nVidia already knows the non-Ultras won't compete with R300, and certainly not with R350. Why throw good money after bad? Let it compete with the $300 ATI cards....which *chuckle* will probably be the R300 anyway--just as soon as ATI ships the R350.....
BTW, I disagree about your bandwidth statement. Even with virtually *the same* raw physical bandwidth as a 9700P, the Ultra was much slower per clock, and that had nothing to do with bandwidth at all. I will say however that as the latencies in DDRII seem to be a fair amount higher than those in DDR I, and as nVidia's nv30 bus didn't seem optimal to me in the sense of even being very good at 128-bits wide, you might get by with a broad interpretation of "bandwidth" here--certainly not anything that putting slightly faster DDR II ram on the non-Ultra would solve. I think the GF FX non-Ultra might make good competition for the 9500Pro, maybe.
I think you'll have a wait on the nv35 though, I really do, as I think it will take significantly more than a 256-bit bus to make it competitive with R350/R400, specifically R400--and that will be a much greater challenge than R300 was, I believe.
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