PSP may miss launch target

[wco81]

1800 mAh?

I'm holding a Panasonic AA battery in my hand, which is labeled 2100 mAh. Cost me a couple of bucks.

I'm sure the Li Ion batteries cost more and probably have a custom form factor.

But I seriously hope they can do better than 1800 mAh.

Is the battery removeable?

I wouldn't mind if they used AA batteries but maybe the voltage requirements are higher than AA batteries can provide. And I'm sure AA batteries would make the form factor thicker and larger.

 

[Ty]

I don't think most of us (including developers) are going to be surprised when it comes out late.


Yes, I am pretty sure it will be late but I'm always cynical like this.

 

[jvd]

The other thing being what ? The screen mainly ? The screen is 4.3" screen, with 200 cd/m2. What's NDS screen ? Two 3" screens, what's the brightness rating ?

No , also the umd and memory sticks .

 

[Natoma]

Probably because the spinning UMD drive heats the thing up too much

BS. Sony's made mechanisms for CD/MD units for like, millions of years. None of those heat up to any significant degree. No reason why a UMD drive would suddenly run incredibly hot, especially with a tiny diameter disc like that.

They haven't married that to a low power portable that also contains a large CPU and visual screen. They've done each of the parts in separate products whether it was a spinning drive in their MD players or a CPU and Screen in their PDAs.

Putting them together in one very slim product could certainly lead to heat problems.

 

[Natoma]

and how many watts does the screen use when displaying the movie ? How much does the ram stick or umd use when playing the movie ?

The screen will consume roughly the same amount of power compare to NDS two screens, provided they're put on the same brightness and backlighting.

RAM typically don't use up more than the chip. As for UMD, it was claimed to be more efficient compare to MD.

Thing is V3, Nintendo has had nearly two decades of producing game playing power friendly handhelds. This is Sony's first attempt. I would assume that 16 years of experience with this, Nintendo would have learned a thing or two.

They have always said that battery life is paramount. They would not have added two if it were to present the battery life problems that the PSP is apparently going to have.

The problem is games . 2 hour of game time isn't very much at all.

Put it this way, PSP can be made to output DS level of graphics, and dwarf the NDS battery life.

The PSP will always have a certain level of power drain from the display and the spinning disc. Even if they reduce the graphic level of the games, it still won't make a difference as the CPU will still be drawing power.

And frankly, the big thing about the PSP is that it would have graphics superior to the PS1 but less than the PS2. If they start releasing games with DS level graphics (which are damn good, dont' get me wrong) in order to conserve battery power, they lost the war before it even started.

 

[Teasy]

Does NDS used the chip only when playing games ? Does it not have 2 screens ?

Screen power is probably the only area (other then wireless) where DS and PSP are even close in power usage.

BTW maybe PSP can have better battery life then DS if it outputs DS level graphics. After all it does have a bigger more expensive battery then DS (though I very much doubt it can dwarf DS's battery life). But then you could also say that DS could be made to last longer then PSP even then by using a single screen like PSP. But what would be the point of doing either of those things?

 

[Goldni]

Has anyone watched the 441meg DS Presentation at IGN? I'm extremely impressed. I'm so glad I preordered mine cause I was told that the units that ship after Dec won't have Metroid Hunters Demo packed in. And they are already saying there will be shortages.

 

[V3]

No , also the umd and memory sticks.

Those are only on when they're needed. The screens are on all the time when playing games. For NDS quality graphics, UMD and memory sticks are hardly required.

 

[V3]

Natoma,

Thing is V3, Nintendo has had nearly two decades of producing game playing power friendly handhelds. This is Sony's first attempt. I would assume that 16 years of experience with this, Nintendo would have learned a thing or two.

Nintendo had been producing handhelds gaming in the form of G&W since what ? 1980 ? So they have more than two decades under their belt. True, this is Sony first handheld gaming, but its not their first portable device.

They have always said that battery life is paramount. They would not have added two if it were to present the battery life problems that the PSP is apparently going to have.

Nintendo, didn't put in backlighting in GBA screen for reason of battery life, Even for SP they went for frontlighting for the same reason. So yes, they've been cutting corner in the right places for battery life. But even Nintendo knows NDS is going to drain significantly more power with its two backlit screens compare to GBA. This is apparent by the bigger battery in NDS and lower quoted battery life for NDS.

The PSP will always have a certain level of power drain from the display and the spinning disc.

PSP display will draw more power than the 2 NDS screens, if the NDS screens has a lower brightness rating. LCDs of that size, 3" - 4" with low resolution and brightness around 200 cd/m2 will draw around 1-3 W of power.

Even if they reduce the graphic level of the games, it still won't make a difference as the CPU will still be drawing power.

And NDS CPU don't draw power somehow ? Of course PSP CPU still draws power. Its rated at 0.5W for decoding movie.

And frankly, the big thing about the PSP is that it would have graphics superior to the PS1 but less than the PS2. If they start releasing games with DS level graphics (which are damn good, dont' get me wrong) in order to conserve battery power, they lost the war before it even started.

If DS level graphics is damn good already, what's the point of superior graphics, you intend Sony to compete with NDS, it'll be pointless, for Sony wouldn't it ? Unless you have weird scale, and put 'damn good' as your lowest preferences

Anyway Sony would have lost if they target the same audience as Nintendo. Nintendo audiences generally have more time on their hand for gaming, That's why they demand longer battery life.

Nintendo have too strong of franchises, that Sony just would not able to compete or anyone else for that matter. Most of the best selling title on GB are Nintendo published. Nintendo can only lost it themself, like they did consoles. But they're better prepare this time around.

Sony would have to create its own market, but I don't think they can take market share away from Nintendo, even if they have abundance of battery life or superior technology.

 

[V3]

Screen power is probably the only area (other then wireless) where DS and PSP are even close in power usage.

Screen(s) and wireless com are the main power draw in most portable device.

BTW maybe PSP can have better battery life then DS if it outputs DS level graphics. After all it does have a bigger more expensive battery then DS (though I very much doubt it can dwarf DS's battery life).

Like GBA SP dwarfing NDS battery life or around there. It has about twice the battery capacity, if both device are put to draw the same amount of current its the only conclusion you would have.

But then you could also say that DS could be made to last longer then PSP even then by using a single screen like PSP. But what would be the point of doing either of those things?

DS needs only a single screen when playing GBA games. For PSP, if the market choices in handheld are battery life, what's the point of superior graphics ? Superior graphics will only matter if the market thinks so. It hasn't been in the past.

Besides different games, requires different level of graphics.

 

[Teasy]

V3

Screen(s) and wireless com are the main power draw in most portable device.

That may be true when you have a device with a 33Mhz Arm 7, 66Mhz Arm 9, a very basic GPU and 4MB of ram. But not when you have a device with two 333Mhz CPU's, a 333mhz GPU with embedded ram (or is that 166mhz.. either way), a UMD drive and 32MB of system ram.

Like GBA SP dwarfing NDS battery life or around there. It has about twice the battery capacity, if both device are put to draw the same amount of current its the only conclusion you would have.

How do you know both systems would draw the same current while rendering the same graphics?

For PSP, if the market choices in handheld are battery life, what's the point of superior graphics.

Ask Sony that question, they are the ones who decided graphics where so important in the handheld market. Superior graphics seems to be the whole idea behind PSP.

Goldni

I'd really like to see that, but I don't have insider. I was thinking of pre-ordering a DS from the U.S. Since it only comes to about £80 (when I get it without VAT added), which is an absolutely amazing price when you consider what your getting (GBA used to have a reccomended price of £89 here until recently and even now its still £69) . But I can't do that until I know for sure if DS is multiregion or not.

 

[V3]

That may be true when you have a device with a 33Mhz Arm 7, 66Mhz Arm 9, a very basic GPU and 4MB of ram. But not when you have a device with two 333Mhz CPU's, a 333mhz GPU with embedded ram (or is that 166mhz.. either way), a UMD drive and 32MB of system ram.

You're forgetting the PSP CPU like NDS too probably has variable clock rate, it can be clocked anywhere from 1 Mhz to 333 Mhz. The GPUs has max clock at half that, from 1-166 Mhz.

How do you know both systems would draw the same current while rendering the same graphics?

Yes, I am just giving NDS benefit of the doubt since I don't know what process the chip are produce in. Or if the those two cores and GPU are on the same chip or different chips. I don't know.

You would probably expect the chip in PSP to draw less current given roughly the same workload, since its a one chip solution on the smallest process currently available.

Ask Sony that question, they are the ones who decided graphics where so important in the handheld market. Superior graphics seems to be the whole idea behind PSP.

Yes, we've got to ask Sony that. Too bad B3D don't get interview with them. Anyway until they release the price for PSP I won't know which market they're really targeting. They're aiming to sell several millions PSP after release, but that won't happend unless its reasonably price.

If they're really gonna take market from Nintendo, its going to be a blood bath for Sony. They have to release PSP at $99-$149 with games starting at $20. Even at that price Nintendo is a very strong presence in Handheld market. Sony has no franchise, what so ever in handheld market. They can leverage their PS2s', but it won't get them far.

 

[Teasy]

You're forgetting the PSP CPU like NDS too probably has variable clock rate, it can be clocked anywhere from 1 Mhz to 333 Mhz. The GPUs has max clock at half that, from 1-166 Mhz.

I'm not forgetting that the clock speeds can vary. But those are the normal clock rates. I was just pointing out that screen and wireless are not neccesarily the majority power draw in a device like PSP. This line of discussion, I thought, was seperate from the whole downlocked PSP idea.

On the downclocking idea. Even if PSP's chip could consume less current while producing the same workload as DS (which I'm still not neccesarily convinced of yet) what about the 32MB system ram? Also what would DS level graphics look like on a sharper high quality 4.3" screen? What's the point of buying a PSP to play games with DS level graphics at twice the price of DS without DS's extra features?

To be honest I really don't see the point of this whole discussion ATM.

 

[thop]

http://yahoo.businessweek.com/investor/content/oct2004/pi20041011_3666_pi044.htm

Since Sony will go head-to-head with Nintendo, which priced its new handheld gaming device at $136, we do not expect PSP to be priced at more than $200. Consequently, even if Sony sells PSP at the lower end of our projection, it could produce substantial incremental revenues in the second half of the fiscal year 2006.

We expect margins for PSP to be between 6% and 8%, assuming that Sony has not mastered cost efficiency at that point in the PSP's life cycle.

200$? And then SONY even makes money with that price? That guy is either totally clueless, or got some guy high up over at SCEJ whispering him things, which i doubt.

 

[V3]

I'm not forgetting that the clock speeds can vary. But those are the normal clock rates. I was just pointing out that screen and wireless are not neccesarily the majority power draw in a device like PSP. This line of discussion, I thought, was seperate from the whole downlocked PSP idea.

We are talking about NDS level of graphics aren't we ? That means PSP coming down to NDS level of performance.

On the downclocking idea. Even if PSP's chip could consume less current while producing the same workload as DS (which I'm still not neccesarily convinced of yet) what about the 32MB system ram?

Again the memory on PSP could have use the latest process too. There isn't that much detail on it. If you keep up with semiconductor, Sony does have some low power memory solution.

Also what would DS level graphics look like on a sharper high quality 4.3" screen?

Well you would split create two viewports on it to match DS. So it would look the same. Adjust the brightness to match DS, I think it will look very close like the DS.

What's the point of buying a PSP to play games with DS level graphics at twice the price of DS without DS's extra features?

If the performance are match with DS, PSP got that analog thingy, that people might prefer to stylus control. It got widescreen instead of a tall screen configuration, that people might prefer. And lastly It'll have longer battery life, if that was the case.

To be honest I really don't see the point of this whole discussion ATM.

Well, Sony seems to care about battery life, in that recent article aren't they enforcing some sort of limit on battery usage for games ?

Who knows maybe they want to have reasonable battery life afterall. Maybe for the first generation games. Later, IF they reached critical mass, they'll just let go of the restriction, and let gamers decide if they want to play games that drained alot of battery.

BTW NDS battery life expectation is already alot shorter compare to usual Nintendo standard on battery life. Did you overlook that point ?

 

[Teasy]

We are talking about NDS level of graphics aren't we ? That means PSP coming down to NDS level of performance.

In general we are, but as I said just in that particular case that was not what I was talking about.

If the performance are match with DS, PSP got that analog thingy, that people might prefer to stylus control. It got widescreen instead of a tall screen configuration, that people might prefer. And lastly It'll have longer battery life, if that was the case.

This discussion just gets stranger and stranger.

So your suggesting that Sony should produce a $300 system with a single screen and PS2-Ish graphics capabilities and then use it to try to mimmick a $149 dual screen system with just above N64 level graphics? Well it would be hilarious if this happened, but it won't, obviously.

Well, Sony seems to care about battery life, in that recent article aren't they enforcing some sort of limit on battery usage for games ?

Who knows maybe they want to have reasonable battery life afterall

I haven't seen that, which articles are you refering too? They may be enforcing limits on battery usage (I sort of expected that). But surely that would only be no extensive streaming from the UMD in games, that type of thing. Although I suppose they could effectively limit PSP's CPU and GPU speed a bit, for the first year or so. Then allow full speed usage when they have better batteries available. Actually looking at the first PSP games that may be what they're doing. There's no way they're going to limit PSP's graphics to DS levels though obviously. You can't sell a $300 gaming system with the same graphics as a $150 system.

BTW NDS battery life expectation is already alot shorter compare to usual Nintendo standard on battery life. Did you overlook that point ?

What makes you think I overlooked that?

 

[Lazy8s]

At around 400 mW, the PSP chips would be burning through a lot of power if GoForce and MBX SoCs are around 200 mW and lower. And for a PSP movie, you'd have to watch it straight through without pausing or rewinding much to make it through on one battery.

 

[Teasy]

At around 400 mW, the PSP chips would be burning through a lot of power if GoForce and MBX SoCs are around 200 mW and lower

500mW apparently for the chip when decoding video (so only when using the media engine, not the other CPU or GPU).

 

[Farid]

BTW NDS battery life expectation is already alot shorter compare to usual Nintendo standard on battery life. Did you overlook that point ?

What makes you think I overlooked that?

IIRC, they were talking about ~6H of battery life, which is under the battery life of GBASP:

10 hours continuous play with 3 hour recharging
18 hours continuous play with light function disabled

At around 400 mW, the PSP chips would be burning through a lot of power if GoForce and MBX SoCs are around 200 mW and lower.

There's GoForce 4000 SoCs? Also, when comparing power comsuption, it's better to compare the chips while they're doing the same things, at the same resolution. Or else, it would be a simple Apples-vs-Orangesâ„¢ comparison, made just for the sake of doing a comparison.
OTOH comparing the whole DS vs the whole PSP can make some sense, with regards to the "user interest" in battery life, but comparing the chips alone...

[sarcasm off-topic]

So your suggesting that Sony should produce a $300 system with a single screen and PS2-Ish graphics capabilities and then use it to try to mimmick a $149 dual screen system with just above N64 level graphics?

I'm certain that's not what he's suggesting, since DS graphics are just under N64 levels.
[/off-topic]

 

[Teasy]

IIRC, they were talking about ~6H of battery life, which is under the battery life of GBASP

So?, what does that have to do with me overlooking that? I don't see the connection with anything I've said and me overlooking the fact that DS has a lower battery time then GBA (which I didn't do)

I'm certain that's not what he's suggesting, since DS graphics are just under N64 levels.

So then what is he suggesting in your opinion? And no DS's graphics are not just under N64's AFAICS. On a TV screen they might be but not on the DS's 3" screen.